New guy...completely baffled

[Frank in Thailand]

This is not yours nor any information about the capacity
just a picture from the web.
It's ok.

We can fight over cable thickness, but I'm sure you can agree that unless you have this dragon, it's not a good purchase to start for upgradeable off grid installation.

I'm sure you can send me pictures your 12v 800ah lead acid battery you have...

Still..
Not a good start for off grid installation.

Please explain why anyone should buy 2400 watt 12 Volt Inverter??
When planning on living off grid?

Why even 12v??

Then you must be limited to 1 X 12v lead acid.
Otherwise there is no reason at all to start with this.

If your budget is only 1* 12v battery, I still would not buy this inverter but more matching 1000watt.

And sleep a few night in the tent, overthinking if this is the best action to do....
With no budget to make proper start.

Then again, topic starter did not get scared from the 30.000 USD quotation.

Budget is not that limited.

Still your math isn't wrong, the advice of 2400 watt 12 Volt Inverter is.
And with it, all cable calculation that come from it.

If the budget is +30.000 the last thing you worry about is the 5 USD for new cables.

 

[Ampster]

..........
I am all for someone showing me why this is not the case

Have you run any calculations on PV Watts to validate their assumptions?

 

[pawanranta]

Oh almost forgot another scale idea related to the charge controller.
Lifepo4 batteries generally like to be charged at 0.2c and usually can tolerate up to 0.5c.
So the battery bank should be size so that in the event of one battery be disconnected the remaining one will not recieve >0.5c charge.
When both are in service the max charge rate is ~0.25c for fault tolerance.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Frank in Thailand]

I don't know the costs involved for the electricity cable.
Nor the Amperage or wattage is allowed to use.

Having grid is pay every month the connection (that you paid for) and all types of crazy extra "environmental charges" (or it could be only on Europe where 40% of the electricity bill is this type of BS...

Rest of your life you are living there, month after month after month.

For me it would cost 12.000 USD.

Or 120 350watt panels..
Ok, more is needed then just the panels, you get the idea.
Take 40 panels and have all the energy you need.
You might need to clean them during snow.
The rest is everything paid for.
No monthly bill or fees, no nothing.
Freedom.

My whole route coated me about 20.000 USD.
Include learning money.

More then the 12.000 for cable, but that would have given me just 10A.
Really.
If I want more, pay double.

Now, for the next 10-15 years, no real additional costs.
12.5kw solar. ( max panel production, per day would be 50-60kw),
37.5 kwh lifepo4,
10kw inverter set.

It's worth the extra investment, even electricity is here just 4 THB, about 0.12.5 USD

Worth it.

I'm curious, what did the quotations go for?
What you get for 30.000 USD?

And, how much does it cost to get the cable??

For sure it's the most easy way to go, not the cheapest for the long run.

Adding solar afterwards makes just as much sense as all others that are grid connected.
It will reduce your bill.

Pure solar you won't have a bill at all

 

[Supervstech]

Apparently you have 2400 watt inverter at 12v.

Please show me the pictures.

I have my old 6000 watt inverter @48v and even that have 2 positive band 2 negative connections.

One big bolt.
Must be M16 or for you USA. 0.629 inch.

Probably even to thin. Iron is only 1/6th for conductivity.
70mm2 = 15mm, * 6 is bolt of 6 cm diameter...
6 cm...
Don't forget it's made of iron (95% of the time) and less electric conductivity.
As so, it needs to have ticker size then your 70mm2 cable.

Or 15mm if pure copper...

Pictures please!!

I have a 5000W 12V inverter for a motorhome with a single positive and negative lug...
Sure, its crap harbor freight MSW, but it works...

 

[G00R00]

Order a pallet of panels and a pallet of batteries from China. By the time you get here you'll have it figured . . .

Oh wait that's me . . . At this point I'm seriously considering custom building a "black box" that will serve your needs . . . Anyone wanna go in on a container-load?

I propose:
Dual MPPT inputs 50AMP-Charge
200v max PV input/2000 w @48v
Dual 120/240 Grid or Generator Input max 50AMP
DC to DC charger ability to charge from a vehicle alternator Max 50AMP

5000w Inverter 120/240v Pure Sine Wave
-(2)120v 25 AMP circuit and/or (1)240v 25AMP circuts
-Programmable 50/60htz
-fast/intelligent switch over and user customizable prioritization

Programmable Generator Remote Start
WIFI and Bluetooth enabled/NO monitor on unit
-monitor charging status
-battery SOC
-AMPS IN OUT

Primarily for charging Lithium 24 or 48v Batteries
-Low voltage Cutoff
-Temp High/Low Cut off

What did i miss?

Think we can get someone to build this for us and we can paint it blue? Or maybe the blue people are listening and would do this for us . . .

-Dreaming and waiting for batteries.

 

[G00R00]

for DIY you should be able to have a HUGE system (2KW lithium) and 4000 watts solar for less than $10,000.
You can buy one magic box and boom, you're done.

 

[PNWDave]

What i am really interested in knowing is how many Kw of panels they were planning and battery capacity.

If you do not know that how many kw per day would you expect I would like to design something just as an idea .

I figure if you are willing to do the work and take out the profit from the solar installer you can reduce cost at least 50%

There was one that was 13kW and one that was 15kW. I guess I ditched the emails after seeing the costs...can't find them. And the prices were just hardware...I've always intended to install it all myself.

 

[PNWDave]

Frankly, I feel that switching to solar AFTER having already paid for a grid connection is the height of foolishness. Please do not kid yourself that you are somehow going to save money going solar. Off-grid solar is still the single most expensive way to provide yourself with electricity in the quantities you require.

Well, you might ask, why did I go with solar, if I think it's so expensive. That's because my cabin is 20 miles up a dirt road (even in California), with maybe the nearest electrical pole 15 miles away. Solar is more economical because I don't have to pay for 15 miles of electrical line. With the Renogy kit I bought everything cost me about 15K, less than half of what installers are quoting you. Sadly, I paid retail for my panels years ago, and I bought 4500W. Now I know better. I can get deals any day of the week now for grid-tie panels at less than 0.25$ per watt.

With what I know now, I think you can build a substantial system yourself for about 10K. This is all your own labor. Let me itemize...

Batteries 3000$
C. Controller 650$
Schneider Inverter 3400$
PowerCenterWiring 700$
4kw of Panels 1000$
steel framing 1000$

There will always be some extras, like cement, post-hole driller, ect, so maybe plan on 1000$ extra for dodads.

With my 4.5kw system, I can produce about 600W at noon in the rain, so maybe about 2.5kwh a day in the winter. In July, 20kwh/day is easy. There are tricks you can do to make it work. You can install extra panels and use virtural tracking to point them east and west, so you won't overload the system at noon on a sunny day. You can still squeak by in the winter months if you run your generator every so often.

If a dumb slob like myself can put together a functioning system, so can you.

Thanks! I get it...I just was kind of stupid going into this assuming that the hardware would cost less. Ultimately, the desire to go solar isn't a financial one...it's more of a desire to not (or less) reliant on others...

 

[PNWDave]

Order a pallet of panels and a pallet of batteries from China. By the time you get here you'll have it figured . . .

Oh wait that's me . . . At this point I'm seriously considering custom building a "black box" that will serve your needs . . . Anyone wanna go in on a container-load?

I propose:
Dual MPPT inputs 50AMP-Charge
200v max PV input/2000 w @48v
Dual 120/240 Grid or Generator Input max 50AMP
DC to DC charger ability to charge from a vehicle alternator Max 50AMP

5000w Inverter 120/240v Pure Sine Wave
-(2)120v 25 AMP circuit and/or (1)240v 25AMP circuts
-Programmable 50/60htz
-fast/intelligent switch over and user customizable prioritization

Programmable Generator Remote Start
WIFI and Bluetooth enabled/NO monitor on unit
-monitor charging status
-battery SOC
-AMPS IN OUT

Primarily for charging Lithium 24 or 48v Batteries
-Low voltage Cutoff
-Temp High/Low Cut off

What did i miss?

Think we can get someone to build this for us and we can paint it blue? Or maybe the blue people are listening and would do this for us . . .

-Dreaming and waiting for batteries.

Honestly, there's a market for that. Solar is for some (idiots like me) pretty daunting when you actually start trying to put the puzzle together yourself...

 

[Craig]

There was one that was 13kW and one that was 15kW. I guess I ditched the emails after seeing the costs...can't find them. And the prices were just hardware...I've always intended to install it all myself.

So that's 13kw of panels what about storage? I will work up an example where you use 10kw per day and have 3 days without any sun at all.

 

[Frank in Thailand]

I have a 5000W 12V inverter for a motorhome with a single positive and negative lug...
Sure, its crap harbor freight MSW, but it works...

And...
Would you suggest that inverter type as start for expandable off grid solution??
With budget off ??
Roughly $15.000 or more....

Best start??

I never said it's not working or doesn't exist.
I've seen 20.000 watt inverter using sigarette power plug.....
(Not pulling 20kw at that time)
And Chinese 20.000w....
Probably real 4.000

I only say it's not the best start, and from that, the cable calculation that comes with it.

I never said 70mm2 or 0/2 is bad.
I even wrote it's like what I have.

It's not the best start if you want your system to be upgradable.
Upgradable is that you keep using that inverter.
So your whole home stay at 12v for ever....
Or have separate power bank, what makes it stand alone and not upgradable

Would you honestly advice the topic starter who wants to go live off grid in a home, to use this as best upgradable solution??

 

[Craig]

There was one that was 13kW and one that was 15kW. I guess I ditched the emails after seeing the costs...can't find them. And the prices were just hardware...I've always intended to install it all myself.

Santan solar panels 50@300 Watts $102 each or $5000.00 plus say $1000.00 shipping 15Kw

2 Midnite solar classic SCC $1500.00 can process 5kw each
16 280 AH eve cells $2400.00 can store 13 kw

SMA Sunny boy inverter $2500.0

Mounting equipment $1000.00

Bms $350.00

Wiring $1000.00

Total $10,750.00 Give or take

You could start with less panels and 1 SCC I do recommend starting with 48V as changing inverters downn the road would be an unneeded expense.

This is just a rough Idea

 

[Frank in Thailand]

13kw and 15 KW of solar.

I'm often confused about them, as some write production per day and others count the Wattage of the panels.

13-15kw is /350w about 40 panels yes?

USA is little more expensive, but say 150 for 350 watt poly.
That would cost 6000 USD

Batteries lifepo4 75 for 280Ah plus 35 DDP transport (??)
Make it big 48* , 840ah, +40kwh
Total including BMS 6000 (Daly)

Inverter with MPPT good one, (still China) 10kw or 2* 5kw that fit all you needs (you can choose 3 phase, 230v, split phase...what you plan to use?)
2000 tops.

Some good fuses, cables MC4, and stuff 1000.

Placing on the soil is most easy .
Rack for 40 panels, 1500 should be doable.
1500+1000+2000+6000+6000
16.500 and all is paid for.

Probably cheaper, I kept high prices.
15.000 should be possible also.

Naturally, I'm guessing with the 35ddp per 280Ah battery.
For me it's 18usd.
400A smart Daly BMS is 300 USD, include BT, screen, cable etc. (I calculate 700)

Solar panels, 40 is 2 pallets.
Could be proffitable to get from China, or buy locally.
Again, I'm guessing about the price.
I have heard people pay 115usd for 325 watt panels.
Here I pay 90 for 340w.
if I buy 40 I pay 85 per panel.

Inverter, I have 3*3.2kw, and max 13500 watt solar MPPT (4.500 per unit)
I payed under 1500.

I have no idea what the guys like you to pay for that 30.000...

But..
I've seen local "power wall" (not Tesla) 5kwh for 3500 USD.
Lol. You can make 40kwh under 6.000....

How much power are you planning to use?
Per day?
How much KWh?

For me it's 45kwh without my miner.
The miner uses 24kwh (1000 w 24/7)
All 5 air-conditioning in use.
No restrictions on any usage.

Our water heater is on Gass. Not electric.
To have the same heating power electric I would need 5kw...
Just for hot water in the bathtub/whirlpool.

Sometimes it's good to look at alternative power, like Gass tank and gasoline for generator.

My 6.5 generator is almost double fuel, Gass (LPG) and gasoline.
It is automatically start.
Any generator with starter engine can do this. Just small conversion for the contact.
We do need to work on baffle box to make it silent

If it will kick in, it will be at night...
With the 37.5kwh lifepo4, I don't expect this to be any soon.

But better to have them to need and not have.

If it is possible to cancel the connection to the grid, and you watch some of will's videos (and Mr. Poz / others) on how to build lifepo4 battery..
You could safe so much money and gain freedom.

Solar panels are like Lego.
You can not plug it wrong.
Unless you start cutting things
Depending on your MPPT you have x in series (MPPT voltage difference between 150 and 900 volt, depending on design)
That's 3 or 20 in a serial string
(Calculate with the 40 panels)

My MPPT is in the middle, it starts at 120 and go OK to 450- max 500 v.
I now have sets of 9 panels, 340v but going to change to 3 parallel of 5.
190v, 4500w per MPPT,

I have no special schooling for this.
Original I'm cake- baker and cook
But shifted to software 25 years ago
I like to tinker, cars, motorcycle, electronic, furniture and all in-between.

If you are planning to live off grid, I'm positive that you are "tinkering" minded as well.
You are going to do many things on your own.
If your car doesn't start...
It's a long walk to get help....
So you first try to fix yourself and don't call for help.

No offense to the ones that call for help with dead battery, but if that is your level of self sustainability...
I'm not sure if off grid is good solution
Some people just don't have it. And that is OK, they have other qualities.

My son waits for me or someone else to visit to change lightbulb...
He clearly doesn't have it.
But he can do graphical design... Whow. Really proud of him.
Also coding... He's good.
But don't ask him to fix a flat tire... ?

Seriously, if you can cancel and your reason for off grid is the freedom.
Don't get spooked by the quotations.
Order the 48*280Ah, the 2 pallets of panels and spend the 6 to 10 weeks it takes to arrive to educate yourself via YouTube.

It isn't rocket science!

 

[Frank in Thailand]

Lol @Craig ...

We agree on the 6000 for solar
Personally I choose more lifepo4, especially as the lifespan increase when you use it between 15 and 85%.

We sure all agree that the 30k is outrageous price for what was offered.

Especially with current pricing in China.
And the products that include from this $30k mostly have their origin in China.

 

[Craig]

Lol @Craig ...

We agree on the 6000 for solar
Personally I choose more lifepo4, especially as the lifespan increase when you use it between 15 and 85%.

We sure all agree that the 30k is outrageous price for what was offered.

Especially with current pricing in China.
And the products that include from this $30k mostly have their origin in China.

I agree more is needed but he wanted to expand this would be a start adding batteries down the road is easy.

My goal was to show that the solar could be created for less than the cost of having the utility connection.

 

[PNWDave]

So that's 13kw of panels what about storage? I will work up an example where you use 10kw per day and have 3 days without any sun at all.

Sorry...I'm unsure how much storage that included. Thanks for your help.

 

[PNWDave]

Santan solar panels 50@300 Watts $102 each or $5000.00 plus say $1000.00 shipping 15Kw

2 Midnite solar classic SCC $1500.00 can process 5kw each
16 280 AH eve cells $2400.00 can store 13 kw

SMA Sunny boy inverter $2500.0

Mounting equipment $1000.00

Bms $350.00

Wiring $1000.00

Total $10,750.00 Give or take

You could start with less panels and 1 SCC I do recommend starting with 48V as changing inverters downn the road would be an unneeded expense.

This is just a rough Idea

This is fantastic. THANK YOU!

 

[PNWDave]

@Craig where are you getting these prices?

NM...found them on SanTan's website.

Thanks again.

 

[Frank in Thailand]

For Lifepo4 it's advised to have roughly 3* as much storage as panels.

13 KW of panels is about 35-40 KW lifepo4.

This should give you, in theory about 3-5 days power in clowds and rainy days.
(Depending on your usage, shorter or longer)

Clowds and rain don't stop the energy production but reduce to 5-10%.

If you don't mind having generator to kick in, lower kWh of batteries can be used.
Even with 3* the panels (assuming the number of panels match your usage) there will be days the generator is needed.