New guy...completely baffled

[Bleedingblue]

Frankly, I feel that switching to solar AFTER having already paid for a grid connection is the height of foolishness. Please do not kid yourself that you are somehow going to save money going solar. Off-grid solar is still the single most expensive way to provide yourself with electricity in the quantities you require.

Well, you might ask, why did I go with solar, if I think it's so expensive. That's because my cabin is 20 miles up a dirt road (even in California), with maybe the nearest electrical pole 15 miles away. Solar is more economical because I don't have to pay for 15 miles of electrical line. With the Renogy kit I bought everything cost me about 15K, less than half of what installers are quoting you. Sadly, I paid retail for my panels years ago, and I bought 4500W. Now I know better. I can get deals any day of the week now for grid-tie panels at less than 0.25$ per watt.

With what I know now, I think you can build a substantial system yourself for about 10K. This is all your own labor. Let me itemize...

Batteries 3000$
C. Controller 650$
Schneider Inverter 3400$
PowerCenterWiring 700$
4kw of Panels 1000$
steel framing 1000$

There will always be some extras, like cement, post-hole driller, ect, so maybe plan on 1000$ extra for dodads.

With my 4.5kw system, I can produce about 600W at noon in the rain, so maybe about 2.5kwh a day in the winter. In July, 20kwh/day is easy. There are tricks you can do to make it work. You can install extra panels and use virtural tracking to point them east and west, so you won't overload the system at noon on a sunny day. You can still squeak by in the winter months if you run your generator every so often.

If a dumb slob like myself can put together a functioning system, so can you.

Where are you getting your panels for .25 cents per panel

 

[Bleedingblue]

David Poz is using 2/0 awg welding cable, It looks easy to work with compared to the 3/0 thhn.

I used 4/0 on my batteries. If someone is concerened about the flexibility of the cable then look for high quality car audio wire. Its much more flexible as it has a higher thread count and oversized.

 

[Frank in Thailand]

Where are you getting your panels for .25 cents per panel

0.25 cents per panel is really cheap.

In Thailand they are cheap. Not that cheap!

I've just ordered 16* 340w poly panels for 37.000 THB, about 1.175 USD, or 73.50 per panel.
That makes 0.2162 cents per watt.

I know, extream.
solar cell 340W BQ Poly ฿2,990 Shopee

https://shopee.co.th/product/113036535/7431643759?v=adc&smtt=0.0.4

Under 10 2990, 10-20 2890, +20 2790.
And 20% cashback via Shopee app.
Delivery to my doorstep included.



Now all they need to do is work for + 20 years

 

[MichaelK]

Where are you getting your panels for .25 cents per panel

That was (less than 0.25$ per watt). The Corona, California Craigslist. Actually, my last purchase was four 245W Astronergy panels for 220$ which works out to be ~22.5 cents per watt. I just checked today's listings, and I didn't spot my seller, but his contact info is Sean at 714-342-7854. Tell him Michael sent you.

 

[Ampster]

Frankly, I feel that switching to solar AFTER having already paid for a grid connection is the height of foolishness.

It all depends on where you are standing. You are up a dirt road and I am in a subdivision in Northern California. Some of my electricity costs as much as $0.54 kWh. I did a long term cost of energy analysis and with solar panels I cut that to under $0.10 /kWhr.

 

[Bleedingblue]

That was (less than 0.25$ per watt). The Corona, California Craigslist. Actually, my last purchase was four 245W Astronergy panels for 220$ which works out to be ~22.5 cents per watt. I just checked today's listings, and I didn't spot my seller, but his contact info is Sean at 714-342-7854. Tell him Michael sent you.

Ya i know its a watt.

When i discuss panels with the installer he even just says a dollar or .75 cents a panel. Just means a dollar or 75 cents a watt.

I guess im gonna give em call and see if they have 335 watt panels to match what i already have

 

[Bleedingblue]

0.25 cents per panel is really cheap.

In Thailand they are cheap. Not that cheap!

I've just ordered 16* 340w poly panels for 37.000 THB, about 1.175 USD, or 73.50 per panel.
That makes 0.2162 cents per watt.

I know, extream.
solar cell 340W BQ Poly ฿2,990 Shopee

https://shopee.co.th/product/113036535/7431643759?v=adc&smtt=0.0.4

Under 10 2990, 10-20 2890, +20 2790.
And 20% cashback via Shopee app.
Delivery to my doorstep included.



Now all they need to do is work for + 20 years

Leading Online Shopping Platform In Southeast Asia & Taiwan | Shopee

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Those are cheap prices. Hopefully i can find those prices for the US.

 

[Bleedingblue]

Here is the math
I figured for 15 feet round trip battery to inverter
2400 watt inverter / .85 efficiency factor / 12 = 235.294117647 dc amps
235.294117647 dc amps * 1.25 fuse factor = 294.117647059 fuse amps
Both of these calculators spec 2/0 awg.

Interactive Wire Size Calculator

Battery Chargers, Inverters, Solar Components, and Wiring Supplies for Boats, RVs, and Off-Grid Applications.

baymarinesupply.com

Circuit Wizard - Blue Sea Systems

What part of my math is in error?

Apparently you have 2400 watt inverter at 12v.

Please show me the pictures.

I have my old 6000 watt inverter @48v and even that have 2 positive band 2 negative connections.

One big bolt.
Must be M16 or for you USA. 0.629 inch.

Probably even to thin. Iron is only 1/6th for conductivity.
70mm2 = 15mm, * 6 is bolt of 6 cm diameter...
6 cm...
Don't forget it's made of iron (95% of the time) and less electric conductivity.
As so, it needs to have ticker size then your 70mm2 cable.

Or 15mm if pure copper...

Pictures please!!

I have a 10,000 watt 48 volt inverter and its just 1 cable. I have a 4/0 cable feeding it.


I also have always dabbled in car audio which uses what they call oversized wire. Welding cable has to be a certain size due to gov standards while wire in car audio doesn't. You will see CCA wire (copper clad aluminum) be a tad bigger in size but carry far less than the welding cable of the same rating.
In my truck i have 6 subwoofers and a 5000 watt rms amp powering them along with other amps for my mids and highs. I use 2 runs of 1/0 to feed them from the alternator/ batteries. In another vehicle i have 2/0 wire which is all oversized and is from SkyHigh audio on a 7000 watt amp. Great quality wire.
Lot of the wire has many more strands which makes it much more flexible to go around bends and corners. The jacket on the wire is much thicker which makes the cable seem to be quite a bit biggger than welding cable of the 2/0 rating. It contains a tad bit more copper but not that much more. Its just the jacket is bigger on the car audio stuff.

Their are several videos of guys taking different manufacturers wire and cutting a 1 foot length and taking the copper out and weighing it. See who actually puts the most copper in their cables vs who just has a bigger jacket.
Welding cable though not at the top is about usually 2/3 in the top tier ratings and is always the best bang for the buck. As some of the car audio wire can be 10-15 bucks a foot for the big stuff. Generally around 5 bucks a foot for the 1/0.


If one is concerened about not having enough capacity in their cables can use a dual input in which 2 runs of 1/0 or bigger can be run.



Here is what im referring to. And their are different styles of these. Can run dual 1/0 into a 1/0 connection or dual 2/0 into a 1/0 connecton. I know in car audio it can make a big difference on power transfer using more runs of wire. I would rather over size the wire than undersize it. Thats why i use 4/0 in my solar when a 2/0 would of worked.






Here is a video on weighing the copper. At the end shows the results of different brands of wire and also has welding cable in the results.

 

[Bleedingblue]

I don't know the costs involved for the electricity cable.
Nor the Amperage or wattage is allowed to use.

Having grid is pay every month the connection (that you paid for) and all types of crazy extra "environmental charges" (or it could be only on Europe where 40% of the electricity bill is this type of BS...

Rest of your life you are living there, month after month after month.

For me it would cost 12.000 USD.

Or 120 350watt panels..
Ok, more is needed then just the panels, you get the idea.
Take 40 panels and have all the energy you need.
You might need to clean them during snow.
The rest is everything paid for.
No monthly bill or fees, no nothing.
Freedom.

My whole route coated me about 20.000 USD.
Include learning money.

More then the 12.000 for cable, but that would have given me just 10A.
Really.
If I want more, pay double.

Now, for the next 10-15 years, no real additional costs.
12.5kw solar. ( max panel production, per day would be 50-60kw),
37.5 kwh lifepo4,
10kw inverter set.

It's worth the extra investment, even electricity is here just 4 THB, about 0.12.5 USD

Worth it.

I'm curious, what did the quotations go for?
What you get for 30.000 USD?

And, how much does it cost to get the cable??

For sure it's the most easy way to go, not the cheapest for the long run.

Adding solar afterwards makes just as much sense as all others that are grid connected.
It will reduce your bill.

Pure solar you won't have a bill at all

I asked a local solar guy on just adding on to what i already have and this is what he come back to me with.

 

[Craig]

I asked a local solar guy on just adding on to what i already have and this is what he come back to me with.


View attachment 14793View attachment 14794

Yikes that is a lot of money

 

[Bleedingblue]

13kw and 15 KW of solar.

I'm often confused about them, as some write production per day and others count the Wattage of the panels.

13-15kw is /350w about 40 panels yes?

USA is little more expensive, but say 150 for 350 watt poly.
That would cost 6000 USD

Batteries lifepo4 75 for 280Ah plus 35 DDP transport (??)
Make it big 48* , 840ah, +40kwh
Total including BMS 6000 (Daly)

Inverter with MPPT good one, (still China) 10kw or 2* 5kw that fit all you needs (you can choose 3 phase, 230v, split phase...what you plan to use?)
2000 tops.

Some good fuses, cables MC4, and stuff 1000.

Placing on the soil is most easy .
Rack for 40 panels, 1500 should be doable.
1500+1000+2000+6000+6000
16.500 and all is paid for.

Probably cheaper, I kept high prices.
15.000 should be possible also.

Naturally, I'm guessing with the 35ddp per 280Ah battery.
For me it's 18usd.
400A smart Daly BMS is 300 USD, include BT, screen, cable etc. (I calculate 700)

Solar panels, 40 is 2 pallets.
Could be proffitable to get from China, or buy locally.
Again, I'm guessing about the price.
I have heard people pay 115usd for 325 watt panels.
Here I pay 90 for 340w.
if I buy 40 I pay 85 per panel.

Inverter, I have 3*3.2kw, and max 13500 watt solar MPPT (4.500 per unit)
I payed under 1500.

I have no idea what the guys like you to pay for that 30.000...

But..
I've seen local "power wall" (not Tesla) 5kwh for 3500 USD.
Lol. You can make 40kwh under 6.000....

How much power are you planning to use?
Per day?
How much KWh?

For me it's 45kwh without my miner.
The miner uses 24kwh (1000 w 24/7)
All 5 air-conditioning in use.
No restrictions on any usage.

Our water heater is on Gass. Not electric.
To have the same heating power electric I would need 5kw...
Just for hot water in the bathtub/whirlpool.

Sometimes it's good to look at alternative power, like Gass tank and gasoline for generator.

My 6.5 generator is almost double fuel, Gass (LPG) and gasoline.
It is automatically start.
Any generator with starter engine can do this. Just small conversion for the contact.
We do need to work on baffle box to make it silent

If it will kick in, it will be at night...
With the 37.5kwh lifepo4, I don't expect this to be any soon.

But better to have them to need and not have.

If it is possible to cancel the connection to the grid, and you watch some of will's videos (and Mr. Poz / others) on how to build lifepo4 battery..
You could safe so much money and gain freedom.

Solar panels are like Lego.
You can not plug it wrong.
Unless you start cutting things
Depending on your MPPT you have x in series (MPPT voltage difference between 150 and 900 volt, depending on design)
That's 3 or 20 in a serial string
(Calculate with the 40 panels)

My MPPT is in the middle, it starts at 120 and go OK to 450- max 500 v.
I now have sets of 9 panels, 340v but going to change to 3 parallel of 5.
190v, 4500w per MPPT,

I have no special schooling for this.
Original I'm cake- baker and cook
But shifted to software 25 years ago
I like to tinker, cars, motorcycle, electronic, furniture and all in-between.

If you are planning to live off grid, I'm positive that you are "tinkering" minded as well.
You are going to do many things on your own.
If your car doesn't start...
It's a long walk to get help....
So you first try to fix yourself and don't call for help.

No offense to the ones that call for help with dead battery, but if that is your level of self sustainability...
I'm not sure if off grid is good solution
Some people just don't have it. And that is OK, they have other qualities.

My son waits for me or someone else to visit to change lightbulb...
He clearly doesn't have it.
But he can do graphical design... Whow. Really proud of him.
Also coding... He's good.
But don't ask him to fix a flat tire... ?

Seriously, if you can cancel and your reason for off grid is the freedom.
Don't get spooked by the quotations.
Order the 48*280Ah, the 2 pallets of panels and spend the 6 to 10 weeks it takes to arrive to educate yourself via YouTube.

It isn't rocket science!

Those are some really good prices. I was priced from xuba 48 cells of the 280AH in a 48 volt system for around $5200 shipped by sea to my door.

Where is the 400a bms? Those charge controllers etc?

 

[Frank in Thailand]

Whow...
High Prices....

I'm helping a German man setup for his resort in Thailand.

84* 340 poly (28.5kw)
96 X 280A lifepo4 (86kwh)
7 x 5.5kw inverter (30kw)
(2 lines of 3 phase, each 15kw. One unit for swap if needed)
BMS, contactors, Balancers, smoke detector that controls contactors, breakers, all except installation and mounting materials.

Total costs, include transport and tax little over $20.000,-

Expected life cycle of lifepo4 10 years
(He is grid connected, but many brown outs)
Same for inverters
Solar 20 years.

All are reserved numbers.
He probably will use about 50kwh per night.
Inverters are backups for backups plus spare,
Solar panels most likely last longer then him (71 yrs)
And even if production decrease, he is grid connected..

Like with all China products, no real warranty on any.
Except functionality at start.

Then again...
If you contact the company that made your quotation after 10 years complain about lower solar production...

they probably won't replace them for free.
even after 5 years you will have a hard time getting warranty.
so why pay double?
or prepare to be your own warranty?

in Thailand that is considered normal.
all stores give warranty to the door.
if you buy a printer, they install in the store for you, make test print and that's it.
it left the store in working condition, after this, you are in your own.

atleast no falce expectations.

 

[John Frum]

Here is what im referring to. And their are different styles of these. Can run dual 1/0 into a 1/0 connection or dual 2/0 into a 1/0 connecton. I know in car audio it can make a big difference on power transfer using more runs of wire. I would rather over size the wire than undersize it. Thats why i use 4/0 in my solar when a 2/0 would of worked.

Can you post a product link for those adapters?
I'm always on the lookout for stuff like this.

 

[Bleedingblue]

Yikes that is a lot of money

Ya one thing is for certain is that most around here know how to charge.

Average income is like 36k per household not individual.

 

[Bleedingblue]

Can you post a product link for those adapters?
I'm always on the lookout for stuff like this.

They have a lot of different type of products. Skyhigh isnt the only one who has these. Their are others.

Sky High Car Audio Dual 4/0 XL or 2/0 XL to 1/0 Amp Inputs

Sky High Car Audio - Elevate Your Ride with Premium Car Audio Solutions. Explore a world of top-quality car audio systems and accessories. Experience crystal-clear sound today!

skyhighcaraudio.com

Sky High Car Audio Dual 4/0 XL or 2/0 XL to 1/0 Gauge Amp Inputs - Copper

Sky High Car Audio - Elevate Your Ride with Premium Car Audio Solutions. Explore a world of top-quality car audio systems and accessories. Experience crystal-clear sound today!

skyhighcaraudio.com

 

[John Frum]

They have a lot of different type of products. Skyhigh isnt the only one who has these. Their are others.

Sky High Car Audio Dual 4/0 XL or 2/0 XL to 1/0 Amp Inputs

Sky High Car Audio - Elevate Your Ride with Premium Car Audio Solutions. Explore a world of top-quality car audio systems and accessories. Experience crystal-clear sound today!

skyhighcaraudio.com

Sky High Car Audio Dual 4/0 XL or 2/0 XL to 1/0 Gauge Amp Inputs - Copper

Sky High Car Audio - Elevate Your Ride with Premium Car Audio Solutions. Explore a world of top-quality car audio systems and accessories. Experience crystal-clear sound today!

skyhighcaraudio.com

"These reducers will ONLY fit our 2/0, "oversized" 1/0 will not correctly and the connection will not be tight."
vendor lockin
And the price!!!

 

[Ampster]

And the price!!!

$34.99 reduced from $55

 

[John Frum]

$34.99 reduced from $55

I was interested in the copper one but noted.
One of these days I may have to consider aluminium.

 

[Bleedingblue]

"These reducers will ONLY fit our 2/0, "oversized" 1/0 will not correctly and the connection will not be tight."
vendor lockin
And the price!!!

Their are other brands that are cheaper. And fit different size cables. This company is not the only one who makes em. A quick search on ebay would show several im sure.

 

[Hedges]

I was interested in the copper one but noted.
One of these days I may have to consider aluminium.

One says copper but setscrews look like steel.

The other appears to be made from a billet of aluminum, probably not tin plated. And also steel setscrews.

Something tells me they aren't UL listed or any other "NRTL"

It's one thing to use these with 12V 40 Ah behind them for as long as you can stand your ears bleeding.
Quite another for continuous duty use in a home power system at 48V with 400 Ah or more.