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OhmMu Batteries

mlwohls

New Member
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Jan 31, 2020
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Looking for some feedback / reviews / knowledge about OhmMu batttereis. I recently came across them on both this forum and a Tesla forum. I think @ElectricLove is assocaited with them (maybe founder?). I know they'll probably chime in (which is always great), but also looking for other's experiences as well :)

My current observations:
- Based on my googling, it seems like the Tesla community seems to like them as drop in replacements for the 12v lead-acid in Teslas
- Their rep that responded on their online chat (Sean) was amazingly helpful and very knowledgable (all online chat ppl should be that good)
- It is possible to do a 2s8p (or more) system to hit a total of ~30kWh @ 24V with these batteries
- Their Gen 2 is super weight efficient (35lbs for 150Ah @ 12V). So dense that I was scratching my head and had to go back to the online chat (for the 3rd time today) and work through the calcs with Sean. I wanted to be very sure as I'm probably going to be buying 10 of these very soon (~$10k so I wanted to be sure), then adding 6-12 more later this year after I have some more experience with them

Anyone with some long term experience with these batteries?

Thanks!
 
They look very interesting. Especially how they can series up to 72V. The prices make me a little concerned on quality. I would ask where or how they work at -13F for sure. I don't use ANY lithium that doesn't have a built in heater. Charge at Cold ( -20C) even slowly will destroy them after the next cycle.
 
@Will Prowse last Youtube video was on an Ohmmu battery replacement for his Tesla S..
Video has 45,000 views in a few days.
There is an 8% off code to buy these batteries.
DIYsolar?
Will said he was interested in testing them.
I looked on their Amazon sales page to see that they say there is no low temp cut off in the BMS.
 
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@MBR ... Yeah. I'm going to be doing a large DIY solar on my live-aboard boat (my post in the "Marine" forum is here https://diysolarforum.com/threads/large-marine-solar-lifepo4-system.3884/ )

I found it hard to justify paying >$1000 per 100ah (@12V) for ReLion batteries, but I was a bit nervous about putting together a DIY LifePo4 setup at the size I need (25-30kWh in a 24V setup is my current end-goal, probably in 2 steps, first up to 18-20kWh, then re-assess). When I found these OhmMu's, it felt like a good balance between the expense/reliability of ReLion vs the cheap/risk of DIY at this size.

Just waiting on getting a good shipping address before I order (we're anchored out without a shipping address right now)
 
And Fuelzero has 100 AH 12V LiFePO4 for $650.

I have no experience with Fuelzero or OhmMu but would like to build up a 48V system and buying 4 of any of them adds up! Any suggestions welcome.
 
They look very interesting. Especially how they can series up to 72V. The prices make me a little concerned on quality. I would ask where or how they work at -13F for sure. I don't use ANY lithium that doesn't have a built in heater. Charge at Cold ( -20C) even slowly will destroy them after the next cycle.

Cold temperature charging fatigues all battery cells, this is not an issue inherent to "Lithium" cells. However, each battery chemistry is more or less effected than others; NMC cells for example are quickly and severely damaged, these are the batteries that run most EV drive-trains, cheap and very high energy density. LFP and AGM are both much more stable and fatigue much less by deep cold charging. The big questions to ask in setting up a system though: How cold? How many Amps is the charging going to be in that cold? How cold is it during charging? (when talking renewables/solar this is important consideration)

How cold?
It is easy to assume the outside temperature is the same as the battery temperature and base things on that, however that is truly worst case scenario. In Tesla vehicles, for example, the 12V battery is located up front, under the frunk liner near the front-wheel electric motor and top of the main traction battery pack (Model S and X); this location actually never gets as cold as the outside temperatures (unless vehicle is totally discharged and left in extreme cold) because the main traction pack is being heated all the time to protect the cells (NMC style, WAY more sensitive to cold), some of this heat is radiated into the surrounding space.
Another example is the Sprinter-chassis campers, the Aux/House battery is located in the engine bay, during driving (when they charge) the engine is running and warming that bay up quite a bit.
In a boat, the battery room may be located near a generator room or engine room, these generate heat, the battery room itself may also be insulated from the outside temperatures and low enough in the boats hull to be warmed by the sea-water it is floating in.
My point is: unless you are planning to install the battery in an open-environment analyze the temperature extremes based on its installation location conditions and not the climate conditions (to a point).
Ohmmu does "deep cold" testing at -30C (-22 F) to -20C (-4 F). These tests are done in-house, the batteries (or cells alone) are put into a Thermotron unit which brings the unit to temperature and holds it there for weeks while the battery is cycled, it is charged and discharged in sequence back and forth. After several weeks in the cold cycling the battery is brought back to 25C (room-temp) and then cycled to assess capacity degradation caused by the deep-cold cycling. While losses DO occur (the total capacity will decrease) it is in line with or better than (less loss) an AGM battery in the same test conditions. Like I said, all batteries lose capacity in these situations, the questions are "how much?" and then assess how much is acceptable to the application and conditions.

How many Amps?
The thing that fatigues batteries the most in the deep cold is charging, discharging is really not an issue, it is effected (cranking Amps drops) but the act of discharging during cold temperatures doesn't fatigue the battery in and of itself, that is from charging. Charging, throughout a batteries life, is one of the most important things we can do to retain battery health. Charging is what fatigues (damages) a battery and reduces its capacity. How fast do you charge, What voltage do you charge up to and what conditions are you charging in; these are all critical. Charging at high-speeds fatigues a battery, just like charging at deep-cold, charging at high-speeds in the deep-cold of course is a double-whammy and really destroys a battery FAST (why a Tesla Supercharging station will first heat the battery if needed before pushing big amperage). In the deep-cold, of course, one would want to charge at low rates to further protect from battery fatigue. "low rates" of course is subjective and completely relative to the battery capacity, a very large battery capacity can handle a lot more charging current. My recommendation is that if charging is to occur below 32F then the current should be less than 20% (30A for a 150Ah) of the capacity and as the temperature of the battery drops that current limit also drops. at 20F I'd recommend keeping it below 10% (15A for 150Ah) of the capacity, below 0F I'd stay below 5% (7.5A of 150Ah) of capacity, below -10F 1% (1.5A of 150Ah) should be the limit.

How cold during charging?
So, with solar energy charging one must consider when that charging will happen. Is this current coming to the batteries at "over-night low" temperatures or when the sun is out and shining and warming everything up? Obviously, it is the latter and this is in our favor because it means the battery cells will be operating at a warmer temperature during this type of charging, which is always a good thing!

OK, I spilled a lot of info here, hope it is helpful to someone out there!
 
Hi Eric,
Kudos to you for coming on here! There are a lot of very smart people on here and they will really test if you know your stuff! :cool:
I'm always impressed when a manufacturer or OEM or supplier comes onto a forum like this. It differentiates you from the big companies who basically say "our stuff is great, we know everything, take it or leave it"
OhmMu gets points in my book.
 
First let me say welcome to the forum.

Second let me say I appreciate the sentiment of your post but it really lacks in actual detail.

What rate do you cycle you cells?

Do you a have microprocessor and a sense resistor to ensure packs cutoff at cold when they exceed this charge rate?

What is the capacity loss that you consider acceptable for 1x cold cycle, 10x cold cycles?

How do you warranty a pack sold to someone in Canada or ALASKA?

I've been testing-designing Lithium Ion cells of various chemistry for almost 20 years.

ALL of them degrade at cold cycle just like you said. Even very slow charge rates of <5% are still enough to show degradation vs packs stored at same temperatures but not charged.

ALL Lithium based packs (In my opinion) need to have a heater for use in cold temperatures. Mil-Spec batteries have required it for at least 10 YEARs.

Commercial products will follow suit with Heaters and Smart chargers that can use SMBUS or CAN to respond to battery requests for changing conditions. Its just a matter of time until they catch up.


BTW--

" NMC cells for example are quickly and severely damaged, these are the batteries that run most EV drive-trains, cheap and very high energy density."

Cheap? Cobaltite is quickly becoming a precious commodity. Its why NMC, NCA etc are trying to reduce the amount of it.

LFP is inexpensive and far more abundant.

Finally.

I'll say I think there is this "Lithium Lie". That somehow LFP can replace Lead...well it cannot.

Not without some help in the form of advanced BMS/Heaters/Smart Chargers etc.

Don't get me wrong I'm a big fan of technology but LFP never meets the Thousands of cycles promised. @Will Prowse

Its why there are so many new used packs from Valence or BYD out there with low capacity and very low cycle counts.

Why? Prolonged storage at high SOC will damage ANY lithium battery and over discharge is true for MOST lithium too.

LFP Its LESS fragile than Cobalt based chemistry but still quite fragile.

Just my 2 cents...


Cold temperature charging fatigues all battery cells, this is not an issue inherent to "Lithium" cells. However, each battery chemistry is more or less effected than others; NMC cells for example are quickly and severely damaged, these are the batteries that run most EV drive-trains, cheap and very high energy density. LFP and AGM are both much more stable and fatigue much less by deep cold charging. The big questions to ask in setting up a system though: How cold? How many Amps is the charging going to be in that cold? How cold is it during charging? (when talking renewables/solar this is important consideration)

How cold?
It is easy to assume the outside temperature is the same as the battery temperature and base things on that, however that is truly worst case scenario. In Tesla vehicles, for example, the 12V battery is located up front, under the frunk liner near the front-wheel electric motor and top of the main traction battery pack (Model S and X); this location actually never gets as cold as the outside temperatures (unless vehicle is totally discharged and left in extreme cold) because the main traction pack is being heated all the time to protect the cells (NMC style, WAY more sensitive to cold), some of this heat is radiated into the surrounding space.
Another example is the Sprinter-chassis campers, the Aux/House battery is located in the engine bay, during driving (when they charge) the engine is running and warming that bay up quite a bit.
In a boat, the battery room may be located near a generator room or engine room, these generate heat, the battery room itself may also be insulated from the outside temperatures and low enough in the boats hull to be warmed by the sea-water it is floating in.
My point is: unless you are planning to install the battery in an open-environment analyze the temperature extremes based on its installation location conditions and not the climate conditions (to a point).
Ohmmu does "deep cold" testing at -30C (-22 F) to -20C (-4 F). These tests are done in-house, the batteries (or cells alone) are put into a Thermotron unit which brings the unit to temperature and holds it there for weeks while the battery is cycled, it is charged and discharged in sequence back and forth. After several weeks in the cold cycling the battery is brought back to 25C (room-temp) and then cycled to assess capacity degradation caused by the deep-cold cycling. While losses DO occur (the total capacity will decrease) it is in line with or better than (less loss) an AGM battery in the same test conditions. Like I said, all batteries lose capacity in these situations, the questions are "how much?" and then assess how much is acceptable to the application and conditions.

How many Amps?
The thing that fatigues batteries the most in the deep cold is charging, discharging is really not an issue, it is effected (cranking Amps drops) but the act of discharging during cold temperatures doesn't fatigue the battery in and of itself, that is from charging. Charging, throughout a batteries life, is one of the most important things we can do to retain battery health. Charging is what fatigues (damages) a battery and reduces its capacity. How fast do you charge, What voltage do you charge up to and what conditions are you charging in; these are all critical. Charging at high-speeds fatigues a battery, just like charging at deep-cold, charging at high-speeds in the deep-cold of course is a double-whammy and really destroys a battery FAST (why a Tesla Supercharging station will first heat the battery if needed before pushing big amperage). In the deep-cold, of course, one would want to charge at low rates to further protect from battery fatigue. "low rates" of course is subjective and completely relative to the battery capacity, a very large battery capacity can handle a lot more charging current. My recommendation is that if charging is to occur below 32F then the current should be less than 20% (30A for a 150Ah) of the capacity and as the temperature of the battery drops that current limit also drops. at 20F I'd recommend keeping it below 10% (15A for 150Ah) of the capacity, below 0F I'd stay below 5% (7.5A of 150Ah) of capacity, below -10F 1% (1.5A of 150Ah) should be the limit.

How cold during charging?
So, with solar energy charging one must consider when that charging will happen. Is this current coming to the batteries at "over-night low" temperatures or when the sun is out and shining and warming everything up? Obviously, it is the latter and this is in our favor because it means the battery cells will be operating at a warmer temperature during this type of charging, which is always a good thing!

OK, I spilled a lot of info here, hope it is helpful to someone out there!
 
Its why there are so many new used packs from Valence or BYD out there with low capacity and very low cycle counts.

A couple of questions Denwah:

What do you consider low cycle counts and how did you find out how many cycles the BYD and Valence battery’s have?

Thanks
 
Several of the folks here have the BMS reports from the internal microprocessors and the Valence batteries are almost always 40-150 cycles.

The date code on the Circuit boards of the BYD packs are the tell tale. Even if they cycled fully every day(extremely unlikely) they would be 300-600 cycles at most.

On the other hand I have 15-20 year old Cobalt packs that are still in use because the BMS was well designed in conjunction with smart charging systems.
 
What rate do you cycle you cells?
Do you a have microprocessor and a sense resistor to ensure packs cutoff at cold when they exceed this charge rate?
What is the capacity loss that you consider acceptable for 1x cold cycle, 10x cold cycles?
How do you warranty a pack sold to someone in Canada or ALASKA?

To answer the questions in your post:

1. During deep cold (-30C to -20C) cycling we charge at 10-15A (this is ~ 1/10 C rate)
2. No, we do not cut off the packs during cold. Per automotive-grade requirements (which we apply across the board) the 12V battery can't "fall asleep" to preserve capacity loss, since there is no way to isolate the charge/discharge from one another and the need for discharging the pack happens during potentially critical events (such as braking).
3. 1x cold cycle; 0% capacity loss, honestly 1 cycle just isn't going to do anything to our battery cells. 10x cold cycle; 1% loss is acceptable
4. We warranty the same regardless of where the customer is located, we stand behind what we sell.

I love what you said about the future of these systems having a BUS (hopefully some standards in place) between battery and some smart-charging equipment as the norm, this is exactly what we do with the company we supply batteries to as OEM. We added a CANbus port to our battery and send out information about the status as well as "charge limit" and "discharge limit" based on the current state (SOC, raw capacity & Temp compensated), of course this means our battery has to trust the vehicle as well since there is not any way for our battery to "say NO" when something it doesn't want to happen, happens. I too hope this to become standard in the future and am inspired right now to push for Ohmmu to start adding this feature into our other products as well and also offer a charger to go with it (or find a partner for that as we prefer to focus on batteries and let someone else build chargers).
 
Thanks. Your honesty has earned you big points in my book.


BTW-- the Military batteries have set standard form of 6T



This is literally due today but the Small Business Admin is PAYING companies like yours to make next generation batteries!



I use them on on our Vehicle platforms and some of my generator replacement alt energy storage stuff.

I currently pay ~$5,000 each for them.
 
To answer the questions in your post:

1. During deep cold (-30C to -20C) cycling we charge at 10-15A (this is ~ 1/10 C rate)
2. No, we do not cut off the packs during cold. Per automotive-grade requirements (which we apply across the board) the 12V battery can't "fall asleep" to preserve capacity loss, since there is no way to isolate the charge/discharge from one another and the need for discharging the pack happens during potentially critical events (such as braking).
3. 1x cold cycle; 0% capacity loss, honestly 1 cycle just isn't going to do anything to our battery cells. 10x cold cycle; 1% loss is acceptable
4. We warranty the same regardless of where the customer is located, we stand behind what we sell.

I love what you said about the future of these systems having a BUS (hopefully some standards in place) between battery and some smart-charging equipment as the norm, this is exactly what we do with the company we supply batteries to as OEM. We added a CANbus port to our battery and send out information about the status as well as "charge limit" and "discharge limit" based on the current state (SOC, raw capacity & Temp compensated), of course this means our battery has to trust the vehicle as well since there is not any way for our battery to "say NO" when something it doesn't want to happen, happens. I too hope this to become standard in the future and am inspired right now to push for Ohmmu to start adding this feature into our other products as well and also offer a charger to go with it (or find a partner for that as we prefer to focus on batteries and let someone else build chargers).

How about donating one of the 150ah batteries for Will to dissect and show us all? :)
 
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