Poof goes the inverter, but not the RV! Phew

[rpgonzalez]

I was borrowing my friends RV, which I acknowledged as having a 240v plug on the end. With RVs this is a standard NEMA 14-50. I installed a 6–50 in my house for EV charging. I think you might know where this is going… Anyway, so I wanted to plug the RV into shore power, and I thought it would be simple enough to take my 14–50 to 6-50 converter plug to power up the air conditioners. The inverter went into flames real quick. For some reason as soon as I disconnected power the little fire went out… lucky day. It took me a while to figure this out, but if you didn’t know, apparently its because 6-50 does not rely on a neutral, and while this works for a 240v evse, 14-50 in an RV is TWO 120 V circuits using the neutral as a return path for the separate circuits. Since I provided no neutrall, as soon as I plugged this into the wall the 2 hot wires found each other… still unclear how an inverter can plug itself in… but yeah. Oops.

 

[HarryN]

Yes, a huge mistake in EV charger design is that they don't provide neutral and grounding wire properly.

All just to save the cost of one wire - ridiculous.

The problem in general of RVs and plugging into somewhat un known situations is why I like to use a dedicated AC charger for the incoming power and turn it all into DC first - send it to the battery pack. Obviously less efficient, but very tolerant and worst case, all that happens is blowing out a relatively inexpensive charger.

 

[Bluedog225]

Wow. Glad it wasn’t worse. Note to self, no adapters.

 

[HarryN]

Wow. Glad it wasn’t worse. Note to self, no adapters.

Easier said than done with an RV and the variations in wiring over time. Growing up in the 60s, no one cared if an outlet was hot or neutral on one side of an outlet or the other.

My house is not all that old, but the wiring for the 240 vac dryer outlet is different than how they are wired today.

 

[webbbn]

Yes, a huge mistake in EV charger design is that they don't provide neutral and grounding wire properly.

All just to save the cost of one wire - ridiculous.

What charger do you have that doesn't ground properly? My Emporia charger doesn't require neutral, but it does require ground, and, if neutral is connected (in the case of using a 14-50 plug), it ensures that neutral is properly bonded.

It seems like the problem is either with the outlet or the adapter. I don't even see how/why they would make an adapter to go from a 3-prong plug to a 4-prong plug. Where does the adapter connect neutral? It can't connect it to either of the hot wires, or to ground.

 

[Bop]

Urgh- thats one of the reasons I prefer our Aussie 230v (nominal- it usually runs around 243v in most areas, up to 252v in Western Australia- its all '230v')
We have just the 230v, no mixing and matching voltages with flames coming out lol
If you have three phase into your house, its just 3 phases of 230v to the the common neutral point (3 phase at consumer level is always star point connected, delta is only ever found on the suppliers side of the system ie 11kv and up)
We use the 10A (2400w) 230v 'powerpoint (outlet) for most usage

For heavier usage (air compressors, welders and caravans (travel trailers) or motorhomes (RV) its a 15A/3600W powerpoint (some big caravans may have 2 of these on their inlet, each is electrically separate with some loads on one, some on the other)- these have a bigger earth pin, but a 10A plug can be plugged straight into a 15A powerpoint (but not vice versa)

For REALLY heavy loads, you got the 20A powerpoint (all three pins are the same size as the earth pin on a 15A powerpoint) again either a 15A or a 10A plug can be plugged straight into a 20A powerpoint, but not vice versa...

For REALLY really big loads- you use a 3 phase outlet (3x230v 32A actives, neutral and earth...)
,



Caravans use either one or two 15A inlets (just use a standard 15A exterior grade extension cord)

If you need to plug it into a normal 10A powerpoint- then you need an adapter yes (because the 15A plug doesn't fit the 10A powerpoint because of the larger earth pin)- but it is simply a 10A plug, and a 15A socket- but has a 10A circuit breaker and RCB (earth leakage breaker) in it so you don't overload the 10A outlet... (normally that would have a waterproof cover on it- but then its just an orange box lol)


Here driers just plug into a standard twin 10A powerpoint with the washing machine (just how power hungry are your US driers???) and an EV can use its 'granny charger' in any 10A or 15A powerpoint- EV charge points (7kw or 22kw) are permanently hardwired in with their own dedicated cable and circuit breaker in the fusebox... (all EVs in Australia, as in the EU, us the same connector ie the CCS2 (the Leaf used to use their own, but they have fallen into line with all the other manufacturers including Tesla)

Handy, as Tesla's can charge at any other charger without adapters, and vice versa- you just download the Tesla app and you can charge your other brand EV at a Tesla supercharger and have it direct debited straight from your account...)

Charging a VW ETransporter at a Tesla charger in the UK)

 

[Rednecktek]

All just to save the cost of one wire - ridiculous

**COUGHCOUGHCOMMONNEUTRALNECCOUGHCOUGH**

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

Urgh- thats one of the reasons I prefer our Aussie 230v (nominal- it usually runs around 243v in most areas, up to 252v in Western Australia- its all '230v')
We have just the 230v, no mixing and matching voltages with flames coming out lol
If you have three phase into your house, its just 3 phases of 230v to the the common neutral point (3 phase at consumer level is always star point connected, delta is only ever found on the suppliers side of the system ie 11kv and up)
We use the 10A (2400w) 230v 'powerpoint (outlet) for most usage
View attachment 192985
For heavier usage (air compressors, welders and caravans (travel trailers) or motorhomes (RV) its a 15A/3600W powerpoint (some big caravans may have 2 of these on their inlet, each is electrically separate with some loads on one, some on the other)- these have a bigger earth pin, but a 10A plug can be plugged straight into a 15A powerpoint (but not vice versa)
View attachment 192986
For REALLY heavy loads, you got the 20A powerpoint (all three pins are the same size as the earth pin on a 15A powerpoint) again either a 15A or a 10A plug can be plugged straight into a 20A powerpoint, but not vice versa...
View attachment 192987
For REALLY really big loads- you use a 3 phase outlet (3x230v 32A actives, neutral and earth...)
,
View attachment 192988
View attachment 192994

Caravans use either one or two 15A inlets (just use a standard 15A exterior grade extension cord)
View attachment 192989
If you need to plug it into a normal 10A powerpoint- then you need an adapter yes (because the 15A plug doesn't fit the 10A powerpoint because of the larger earth pin)- but it is simply a 10A plug, and a 15A socket- but has a 10A circuit breaker and RCB (earth leakage breaker) in it so you don't overload the 10A outlet... (normally that would have a waterproof cover on it- but then its just an orange box lol)

View attachment 192990
Here driers just plug into a standard twin 10A powerpoint with the washing machine (just how power hungry are your US driers???) and an EV can use its 'granny charger' in any 10A or 15A powerpoint- EV charge points (7kw or 22kw) are permanently hardwired in with their own dedicated cable and circuit breaker in the fusebox... (all EVs in Australia, as in the EU, us the same connector ie the CCS2 (the Leaf used to use their own, but they have fallen into line with all the other manufacturers including Tesla)
View attachment 192991
Handy, as Tesla's can charge at any other charger without adapters, and vice versa- you just download the Tesla app and you can charge your other brand EV at a Tesla supercharger and have it direct debited straight from your account...)
View attachment 192992
Charging a VW ETransporter at a Tesla charger in the UK)

Bop,

its called a retardedly over complicated code created by a civil servant attempting to justify their paycheck. if nothing is wrong, then in order to justify their paycheck, they start making problems up out of thin air. that's 95% of the NEC code in the US.

personally my opinion is remove all of the warning labels and allow Darwinism to clean out the DNA pool.

 

[Rednecktek]

Nevah Wick da Wed Wire!!

 

[B-ManFX4]

I was borrowing my friends RV, which I acknowledged as having a 240v plug on the end. With RVs this is a standard NEMA 14-50. I installed a 6–50 in my house for EV charging. I think you might know where this is going… Anyway, so I wanted to plug the RV into shore power, and I thought it would be simple enough to take my 14–50 to 6-50 converter plug to power up the air conditioners. The inverter went into flames real quick. For some reason as soon as I disconnected power the little fire went out… lucky day. It took me a while to figure this out, but if you didn’t know, apparently its because 6-50 does not rely on a neutral, and while this works for a 240v evse, 14-50 in an RV is TWO 120 V circuits using the neutral as a return path for the separate circuits. Since I provided no neutrall, as soon as I plugged this into the wall the 2 hot wires found each other… still unclear how an inverter can plug itself in… but yeah. Oops.

This is an easy way for your friend to protect their RV from a myriad of electrical faults, including what happened to you: Progressive Industries EMS-PT50X

Mine cost me $250. It has detected 3 miss-wired or faulty pedestals so far. The low voltage detection, coupled with the two minute delay on power drops / cycles, is supposed to help prevent damage to compressors in AC and refrigerators. Lifetime warranty. Just plain works.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

Nevah Wick da Wed Wire!!

no, let them lick it... think of all the "able seamen" you deal with and imagine they all licked the red wire... how much easier would your life be? honestly... think about it.

 

[Mattb4]

Urgh- thats one of the reasons I prefer our Aussie 230v (nominal- it usually runs around 243v in most areas, up to 252v in Western Australia- its all '230v')
We have just the 230v, no mixing and matching voltages with flames coming out lol
If you have three phase into your house, its just 3 phases of 230v to the the common neutral point (3 phase at consumer level is always star point connected, delta is only ever found on the suppliers side of the system ie 11kv and up)
...

It would certainly be simpler than US standard. I like the higher voltage that allows smaller conductors for powering items. I doubt the US however will give up its split phase setups, too much history and installed base of equipment.

 

[Bop]

It is only history and inertia that held the US to the 'old'110v (now nominally 120v, but same thing) voltage- thank Edison for that- he had the political clout to get his DC (100v to begin with, later increased to 110v) system installed in many cities, and while other countries use the higher AC voltages- he was still hanging on to that DC system (mostly because he thought you couldn't make a AC motor until NicolaTesla (yes the guy the Tesla motor company is named after lol) made one...
Indeed Edison wasn't a particularly nice guy and started a 'war' on AC (Westinghouse and Tesla) doing some pretty nasty stuff, electrocuting animals in public demonstrations to 'prove how dangerous it was' (this became known as the war of the currents lol)
https://www.tdworld.com/digital-inn.../20970048/a-short-history-war-of-the-currents
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_currents
He electrocuted many animals in public displays, varying from dogs up to an elephant...



WARNING this link may be disturbing to some people- electrocution of an elephant done by Thomas Edison - DO NOT CLICK if you find this unpleasant

 

[OTRwSolar]

This is an easy way for your friend to protect their RV from a myriad of electrical faults, including what happened to you: Progressive Industries EMS-PT50X

Mine cost me $250. It has detected 3 miss-wired or faulty pedestals so far. The low voltage detection, coupled with the two minute delay on power drops / cycles, is supposed to help prevent damage to compressors in AC and refrigerators. Lifetime warranty. Just plain works.

We've been using hard-wired Progressive Industries EMS's for years. They've saved our bacon a number of times.

Any particular reason you use the portable version?

 

[hwy17]

a huge mistake in EV charger design is that they don't provide neutral and grounding wire properly

Why should an EV charger require a neutral when it has no use for it?

The 6-50 is a perfectly legitimate receptacle without a neutral for appliances that don't need one, it's OP's out of spec 14-50 adapter that allows for misuse.

What's more ridiculous imo is how we have to run neutrals to ovens and dryers in the US, all those extra wires at full 30-50 ampacity just so manufacturers can be lazy and put the same 120v oven light and dryer motor in as they use on their gas models.

 

[HarryN]

RV users would get more value from EV chargers if they had the full set of hot, neutral and ground.

That way they could access 120 vac from an EV charger. Many more people could use them vs just a narrow demographic.

RV battery packs, especially in conversion vans are getting into the same capacity range as some plug in hybrids.

For those who think that only EVs should get to use the EV chargers, my view is that if the purpose of the whole EV push is to reduce total emissions, then it makes sense to have RV users charge from them vs having to run generators.

 

[webbbn]

EV Chargers don't generate power. They just control the flow of power. AFIK their only purpose is to limit the current that the vehicle can draw from the circuit. They certainly can't replace generators.

FWIW, level-1 EV chargers are 120V.

 

[Bop]

FWIW, level-1 EV chargers are 120V.

Actually, that only applies in a single handful of countries...
In most of the world, a level 1 'granny charger' is a nominal 230v single phase (ie 220v, 230v, or 240v- it is all classified as '230v' nominal...
(a residential level 2 charger can be either a 230v single phase, or a 415v three phase supply)

 

[webbbn]

Actually, that only applies in a single handful of countries...
In most of the world, a level 1 'granny charger' is a nominal 230v single phase (ie 220v, 230v, or 240v- it is all classified as '230v' nominal...
(a residential level 2 charger can be either a 230v single phase, or a 415v three phase supply)

View attachment 193345

Yes, of course, but the post I was responding to was about US split phase. In fact, this whole thread is about US split phase.

 

[Bop]

You made a blanket statement that 'all level one chargers are 120v- incorrect...
I wish that people wouldn't assume when making statements like that that ALL people on the internet who see a google search returning statements like that that everyone will be aware of your proviso...
(a blanket statement like that almost killed a friend of mine when someone looked up 'how to wire a light bulb socket' and followed the US colour codes- black is NOT the active/line outside that small handfull of countries- black is the neutral and white is the switched active- he got an electric shock which nearly killed him because the outer threads of the bulb were live at 230v...)
Google bots index all the comments on this site and they are shown in peoples search results you know...