Putting Lipstick on a Pig - Fixing the camp! (Photo heavy)

[brightbulb]

In today's adventure, once it stopped ACTIVELY RAINING, I got a chance to re-tackle the shower. Threw up a solar panel, a little 20Ah AGM, and some LED lights along with an on-demand propane heater.

View attachment 169974 View attachment 169975


Sadly the drain plug shattered and the hardware store in town closed about 5 minutes after I got everything up and working. So, no shower for me.

Good thing I'm alone up here, or I would be!

Wow we built a shower closet like this on our property out here, it is propane too, only light is a tiki torch though. Need to move up to the golden age like you and add solar!! Grats man!

 

[50ShadesOfDirt]

No room internal, so I'd suggest an external wood furnace ... some benefits:

- can be placed on external wall, so you can "see" the fire through the glass, even though bulk of unit is outside
- bottom duct can feed your entire house thru ductwork
- upper opening can be utilized to feed a single room
- as an outdoor furnace, you can burn anything in it (separate burn chamber); can burn trash (helps w/ land clearing)
- super simple flue elements, as you're going straight up externally (no house elements get modified, or punched through)
- no burn ban problems, because it's part of your house "fireplace" (there is no open fire)

"You might be bad at math, if the wife gets 82% of everything in a divorce" ... don't forget the definition of insanity, or there might be more math in your future.

Nice work ... land, trees, off-grid ...

 

[cj5orion]

One of these rainy days I need to whip out the graph paper and a measuring tape and get a sketch to scale so people can understand just how much room I do NOT have in there.

Ext. Wall "pop out".
Just so many benefits it's ridiculous!
I did a homemade one once in a small RV with a 8" steel pipi bout 12" high,had to burn "slivers"...but it worked great !

At all cost...fireplace !
That's my 2 cents!

 

[rodrick]

Hell we use wood stoves in our wall tents at elk camp and that was a 10x14

 

[Rednecktek]

Well, been on the road since a little before 6am, running out of light, drill battery is flashing its last bar... I'm calling it a day.



Cross braces are in, feet are screwed on, 1/3 of the panels are sitting in place. Tomorrow I can go get a buttload of wire and run the ground and conduit. I need the dirt to keep the conduit from curling so might as well put it all in the trench at once.

Boy do these panels need a bath!

Got to chew out a Karen today who tried to lay into me for resting my eyes at a rest stop. Made my day. ?

 

[cj5orion]

I know it's crazy t even try to figure out these Karen's n wokes,etc.
But what the hell was her problem?

 

[Crowz]

I know it's crazy t even try to figure out these Karen's n wokes,etc.
But what the hell was her problem?

Huh?

 

[Rednecktek]

Well, got all dozen panels mounted and screwed down. Had to head to Newport for ground wire, that was 3 stops and 3 hours of my day because the first 2 places didn't have 100ft of 6awg in stock.



No, I'm not doing this "to code" because I just can't bring myself to have 4 ground wires in the same trench. The grounding plates are in the same holes as the middle of each array and I'm not going to run a wire from the plates to the cabin, another wire from the combiner box to the cabin, a 3rd wire from the south array to the cabin, and a 4th wire from the north array to the cabin. The arrays will get connected directly to the grounding plates buried at each array. That's $160 I don't want to spend on wire to go from Point A to Point B and back to Point A again.

Sorry @timselectric , I just can't do it.

It was raining half way to Newport and all the way back. Call me lazy or call me a wuss but I don't feel like digging in mud and running wire in the rain. If it clears up later I'll head out there and do more but for now I'm cold and wet and 2 of my heaters are down. I think I got one working, it's still firing up but parts are on the way.

 

[NCislander]

Well, got all dozen panels mounted and screwed down. Had to head to Newport for ground wire, that was 3 stops and 3 hours of my day because the first 2 places didn't have 100ft of 6awg in stock.

View attachment 172611

No, I'm not doing this "to code" because I just can't bring myself to have 4 ground wires in the same trench. The grounding plates are in the same holes as the middle of each array and I'm not going to run a wire from the plates to the cabin, another wire from the combiner box to the cabin, a 3rd wire from the south array to the cabin, and a 4th wire from the north array to the cabin. The arrays will get connected directly to the grounding plates buried at each array. That's $160 I don't want to spend on wire to go from Point A to Point B and back to Point A again.

It was raining half way to Newport and all the way back. Call me lazy or call me a wuss but I don't feel like digging in mud and running wire in the rain. If it clears up later I'll head out there and do more but for now I'm cold and wet and 2 of my heaters are down. I think I got one working, it's still firing up but parts are on the way.

Nice work! Looking good 'Red...

 

[Rednecktek]

I know it's crazy t even try to figure out these Karen's n wokes,etc.
But what the hell was her problem?

So the Karen story (now that I have a proper keyboard in hand) was just ... yeah...

So I leave my brother's house near Seattle about 6am running on about 4 hours of sleep and I've got an 8 hour drive ahead of me to get here. About 3/4 of the way I'm fading fast, weaving in and out of my lane, just too tired to drive safely. A few miles later comes a rest stop, so I pull over. I park under some shade, tilt the seat back a little and rest my eyes. About 20 minutes later I hear a knocking on my window. There's a middle-aged lady out there glaring daggers at me, so I roll down my window. She then proceeds to lay into me about how a rest stop isn't some place I can sleep, and that if I need to rest I should go home or rent a hotel room. I'm tired and cranky so I tell her something along the lines of "Well, I'm too tired to drive safely so I'm pulling into a REST STOP so I can REST so I can drive SAFELY, or would she rather I run someone off the road?" She tells me she's going to call the police on me and I reply along the lines of "Well it's a DoT rest stop, so why don't you call the DoT, the phone number is on the truck parked next to me, right behind you. Or if you'd like I can call the police for her as I'm feeling very harassed and they might want to come out and deal with an aggressive individual. Or you can just F#@K OFF!". I then rolled up my window, trying not to smile at the look of shock on her face and got another 20 minutes of sleep.

Made my day AND the rest of the drive was safe.

 

[Hedges]

Not sure where you're from (or now lurk in rest stops), but in California we're allowed to spend 8 hours there. After checking out the price of dive motels ($150), I planned my San Diego trip to pick up eBay purchases with a night in a rest stop. Slept in my Civic with a cable tugger in the back, then picked up a transformer the next morning (after filling thermos at Starbucks).

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The trip went fine, except for slow drive on 152 which turned out to be a burned out semi (were they carrying lithium batteries?)

Bit of temperature issue on the way back, cooling system which I blamed on bad radiator cap. Now a year later, I finally found and fixed with JB Weld a bit of a head leak.

 

[Rednecktek]

Oh yeah, we're allowed to sleep there, or as my DoT employed brother says "Gee almost like they were PUT THERE for that EXACT PURPOSE"

Karen's...

 

[timselectric]

I just can't bring myself to have 4 ground wires in the same trench.

That would be a waste of money and completely unnecessary. You never need more than one ground conductor going anywhere.

The arrays will get connected directly to the grounding plates buried at each array.

That serves no purpose whatsoever.
But if you are the only one who can be in danger. You can throw safety out the window. As long as you don't put anyone else in harms way. I won't hold it against you.

 

[rodrick]

Oh yeah, we're allowed to sleep there, or as my DoT employed brother says "Gee almost like they were PUT THERE for that EXACT PURPOSE"

Karen's...

You miss a great opportunity to have some fun at her expense you needed to tell her you couldn’t go home because the police are watching it and going to a hotel was too risky and you were resting and trying to think of how to explain how those body’s ended up in your garage and then ask her if she needs a ride

 

[Rednecktek]

That serves no purpose whatsoever.

So any ESD or current leakage to the panel frames won't ground to the plate?

I guess a drawing might help explain the physics:



According to my grounding thread not too long ago, I was told that every panel set had to have its own ground wire back to the common ground bar. That would mean 3 bare copper conductors (and 1 in conduit) in the same trench coming from the arrays to the cabin and back. It seemed pointless to have any current created by the panel frames to have to travel 55-65ft to the common ground bar, then another 55ft BACK to the grounding plate.

The combiner box's SPD and the main ground bar connection from the plates to the ground bar at the cabin will be connected, but running the frames back to there just seemed ridiculous. The ground wire and the 8AWG from the combiner box will all be in conduit so no dirt contact on that wire, I just didn't have a steady enough hand to get conduit in the drawing.

 

[timselectric]

According to my grounding thread not too long ago, I was told that every panel set had to have its own ground wire back to the common ground bar.

Incorrect
Only one grounding conductor going in any one direction. All grounding is one system.

It seemed pointless to have any current created by the panel frames to have to travel 55-65ft to the common ground bar, then another 55ft BACK to the grounding plate.

Fault current (or leakage) wants to return to the source. Not to the earth. The ground plates serve no purpose. Electricity can only travel in a circuit (circular). It's a misconception that it wants to go to earth. Or can dissipate into the earth.

 

[Rednecktek]

And people wonder why grounding is so confusing.

Incorrect
Only one grounding conductor going in any one direction. All grounding is one system.

Sorry, I'm not groking that. The "Supposed To" way has 1 grounding conductor going in 1 direction each, either from the South Panels -> Ground Bar -> Ground Plates, or the North Panels -> Ground Bar -> Ground Plates, or the SPD -> Ground Bar -> Ground Plates. That's 4 runs of wire between the frames and the ground plates.

Fault current (or leakage) wants to return to the source. Not to the earth. The ground plates serve no purpose. Electricity can only travel in a circuit (circular). It's a misconception that it wants to go to earth. Or can dissipate into the earth.

My nephew was telling me Saturday when he graduated lineman's college that they just connect transformers to ground to discharge energy so they can work on them. I'm confused.

So if there is any ESD or current leakage in the panels, the "source" is what? And if connecting the panels to the grounding system accomplishes nothing, why are we told repeatedly that the frames have to be grounded?

 

[Supervstech]

Atmospheric rf is the only energy that goes to earth, or from earth to clouds, etc...
Bonding goes to all metal components of a system, and a single grounding conductor carries it to the home grounding system.
You are allowed to have ground rods or plates at the array if you wish. It is not preferred. It is not required, it is not recommended, it is not discouraged.

That's the best way I can explain it.

 

[Supervstech]

And people wonder why grounding is so confusing.


Sorry, I'm not groking that. The "Supposed To" way has 1 grounding conductor going in 1 direction each, either from the South Panels -> Ground Bar -> Ground Plates, or the North Panels -> Ground Bar -> Ground Plates, or the SPD -> Ground Bar -> Ground Plates. That's 4 runs of wire between the frames and the ground plates.


My nephew was telling me Saturday when he graduated lineman's college that they just connect transformers to ground to discharge energy so they can work on them. I'm confused.

So if there is any ESD or current leakage in the panels, the "source" is what? And if connecting the panels to the grounding system accomplishes nothing, why are we told repeatedly that the frames have to be grounded?

Discharge to a grounded transformer...

If the transformer is properly grounded, then they could discharge the windings to the ground. I'm not sure why, but perhaps there are capacitors in the circuit, or perhaps they are doing it in case some jackass has an improperly connected generator backfeeding the grid, and they wanna be safe...
Either way, connecting it to ground either shorts out the backfeed, or brings the circuit to the same potential ao their bodies are at equal potential and won't feel a shock...

 

[Rednecktek]

Atmospheric rf is the only energy that goes to earth, or from earth to clouds, etc...

So any weather related ESD in the frames WILL want to go to the dirt?

Bonding goes to all metal components of a system, and a single grounding conductor carries it to the home grounding system.

Home Grounding System? Can you point that out on the diagram because I thought that would be the ground bar at the cabin. I may be wrong though.

You are allowed to have ground rods or plates at the array if you wish. It is not preferred. It is not required, it is not recommended, it is not discouraged.

It was a conveniently sized and deep enough hole to get the plates in. The rock isn't exactly conducive to digging and trying to go anywhere else in the area would require a dozer and LOTS more trees coming down..

That's the best way I can explain it.

I'm still really confused then why I need sooooo much frigging copper. Not that I'm going to, I just can't bring myself to do it.

 

[Supervstech]

So any weather related ESD in the frames WILL want to go to the dirt?

Home Grounding System? Can you point that out on the diagram because I thought that would be the ground bar at the cabin. I may be wrong though.

It was a conveniently sized and deep enough hole to get the plates in. The rock isn't exactly conducive to digging and trying to go anywhere else in the area would require a dozer and LOTS more trees coming down..

I'm still really confused then why I need sooooo much frigging copper. Not that I'm going to, I just can't bring myself to do it.

Ya don't.
You need to connect the arrays together, and run a single conductor back to the main grounding system.
That's it.
I'd use #10 awg between all the panels, and #4 in the trench... but #6 or #10 would likely suffice.
Basically, the grounding conductor from the array needs to be the same as the current conductors. But it shouldn't need be larger than #4 in my jurisdiction.
Some places allow #6 to be the max.
But it shouldn't need to be larger than the current carrying conductors.

 

[timselectric]

That

 

[Rednecktek]

Right, which requires 4 runs between the panels and the cabin. Hence why I'm not doing that.

I'd use #10 awg between all the panels, and #4 in the trench... but #6 or #10 would likely suffice.

Yeah, the plan is 10AWG between each panel (short lengths, frame to frame) and then a single wire from the frames straight down to the grounding plate in the dirt. Since 6AWG is ground wire code around here, that's what I bought today. I'll have 1 wire fishing through the clamps on both plates and sitting in the dirt all the way to the ground bar at the cabin, and another 6AWG in conduit from the SPD in the combiner box to the ground bar.

The largest thing I can see qualifying as a "current carrying conductor" would be the 8AWG between the combiner box and the Growatt. On the 120v side I've got a 10AWG cord for the generator plug to the Growatt and 8AWG from the Growatt to the breaker interlock feeding the cabin's main breaker panel where the N-G bond is made. I pulled the screws from the Growatt to prevent it from doing a N-G bond itself.

 

[timselectric]

Right, which requires 4 runs between the panels and the cabin. Hence why I'm not doing that.

No
One grounding conductor is all that is needed.

 

[Rednecktek]

No
One grounding conductor is all that is needed.

Please diagram that. There is no physical way with the locations of the ground bar, the ground plates, the arrays, and the cabin to have that all be 1 conductor without a LOT of weird fishing and LOTS of conduit.