Putting Lipstick on a Pig - Fixing the camp! (Photo heavy)

[timselectric]

The wood racking is a good thing. Because there is no conductive path between the frames and the earth.
The ground plates and bare wire in the ditch, take away this benefit.
#6 is code for exposed to physical damage ground conductor.
So, #6 from panels to the combiner box. And a single #10 from there back to the cabin.
Not sure how your conduit is ran. But if you go from one array to the other, and then back to the cabin.
You only need one grounding conductor in each run.

 

[timselectric]

Please diagram that. There is no physical way with the locations of the ground bar, the ground plates, the arrays, and the cabin to have that all be 1 conductor without a LOT of weird fishing and LOTS of conduit.

How are your conduits ran?
And forget the ground plates. They are more of a Hazzard than a benefit.

 

[Rednecktek]

How are your conduits ran?

Just one piece of conduit going from below the combiner box to the wall next to the Growatt so I can feed the DC from the combiner box output to the disconnect breaker on the wall in the utility room. This will house a pair of 8AWG silicone wrapped wire and a bare 6AWG bare copper wire.

And forget the ground plates. They are more of a Hazzard than a benefit.

Driving an 8ft rod is impossible without involving a multi-thousand dollar drilling rig due to the rocky terrain, and there wasn't enough clearable area to lay a pair of rods horizontally and maintain the minimum distances between the rods. Grounding plates at 30" deep being a minimum of 12" x 12" x 1/4" (mine are 24" x 18" x 5/16" @ 36" deep) is acceptable by NEC. That's what I ended up doing for the main grid connection. The inspector and my NEC book both said 6AWG wire was the requirement for buried bare copper wire between the plates, the well casing, and into the main ground bar in the breaker panel.

 

[Rednecktek]

So, #6 from panels to the combiner box. And a single #10 from there back to the cabin.

So panel frame into the dirt, out of the dirt and up to the second frame, off the second frame into the SPD, out of the SPD into conduit to the ground bar at the cabin, then from the ground bar in the cabin back into the dirt out to the ground plates? That's not an individual conductor for each array frame. 6awg is what is required in my area for ground wire.

 

[timselectric]

You are mixing code sections together.
If the ground plates are your earth connection for the system. #6 is required between them and to the main panel.
#6 is also required for the exposed part (not protected by conduit) at the array.
The ground plates are actually too far away from the main panel. But if we ignore that. The ground conductor from the main panel (or main ground bar), brings your grounding system to that point.
All of the array grounding, can be connected to that ground conductor.
Once something is connected to the grounding system. It becomes part of the grounding system. And provides a connection point for any other grounding. The only exception is that you can't use a smaller existing grounding conductor. For the connection of a larger required conductor.

 

[Crowz]

South Array grounded to North Array

Ground wire run from North Array to the house ground

That's it.

Only other wires besides that is your pv wire for positive and negative stuff.

 

[timselectric]

South Array grounded to North Array

Ground wire run from North Array to the house ground

That's it.

Only other wires besides that is your pv wire for positive and negative stuff.

Normally, yes.
But, this is an odd setup.
The ground plates (instead of ground rods) for the main panel. Are located at the array.

 

[Crowz]

Normally, yes.
But, this is an odd setup.
The ground plates (instead of ground rods) for the main panel. Are located at the array.

It would still just need one wire for ground. A bigger wire like you mentioned but it would still only be one right?

 

[timselectric]

It would still just need one wire for ground. A bigger wire like you mentioned but it would still only be one right?

Yes

 

[Rednecktek]

South Array grounded to North Array

And the copper wire between the two hangs out in mid air?

Ground wire run from North Array to the house ground

Which would require either another 60ft run of conduit to keep it electrically isolated from the ground wire going to the plates OR having 2 bare wires in the dirt right next to each other?

That's it.

What about the ground wire the SPD in the combiner box calls for?

Only other wires besides that is your pv wire for positive and negative stuff.

And the ground wire from the SPD.

You are mixing code sections together.

Probably. But please elaborate as I'm no master electrician on this side of things. Give me 440v and an ungrounded split phase 220v system and I'm set!

If the ground plates are your earth connection for the system. #6 is required between them and to the main panel.

Check!

#6 is also required for the exposed part (not protected by conduit) at the array.

So can I use 10awg between the frames themselves and 6awg from the frames down to the dirt? That was the plan.

The ground plates are actually too far away from the main panel. But if we ignore that. The ground conductor from the main panel (or main ground bar), brings your grounding system to that point.

Right, hence the understanding that I would need to have a wire between each array and the ground bar, and from the ground bar to the plates in the dirt. Not including the SPD ground that needs to go from the combiner box to the ground bar.

All of the array grounding, can be connected to that ground conductor.

Which ground conductor? I have 4 here.

Once something is connected to the grounding system. It becomes part of the grounding system. And provides a connection point for any other grounding. The only exception is that you can't use a smaller existing grounding conductor. For the connection of a larger required conductor.

So by connecting the panels directly to the ground plates, doesn't that "become a part of the ground system"?

But, this is an odd setup.
The ground plates (instead of ground rods) for the main panel. Are located at the array.

Yes, I can only work with the terrain I'm given. I can't afford a multi-thousand well drilling rig to drill holes for rods (which is what many other places have done before the new ground plate option) and the ground closer to the cabin itself is impossible to work without a tractor with a scoop, too much heavy rock fill. So I put the plates where I could get them deep enough and had access.

I'm sorry if I'm being frustrating, I'm just really confused and what I put in my hand is so different than what is done on paper. Conduit out here is about $2.80/ft for the flexible water tight that I would need to encase individual wires, and if I need to buy any more copper it's going to be 2 hours and 85 miles each way as I just bought out the last place.

 

[Supervstech]

And the copper wire between the two hangs out in mid air?

Which would require either another 60ft run of conduit to keep it electrically isolated from the ground wire going to the plates OR having 2 bare wires in the dirt right next to each other?

At NO TIME did anybody suggest ground plates should be isolated...

Every piece of metal must be connected to the ground system...

You are allowed to have ground plates at the array, but they MUST be connected to the main grounding system.

 

[Rednecktek]

But if you are the only one who can be in danger. You can throw safety out the window. As long as you don't put anyone else in harms way. I won't hold it against you.

Also, if you have the patience, please elaborate on this one too. My intention is to ensure that there is only 1 N-G bond in the system, that the main system has more than minimum surface area for ground plates, and that in the event of the panel arrays getting charged there is somewhere for that energy to go within budgetary and terrain restraints. Where is the unsafe part coming from and how does that work?

 

[timselectric]

So can I use 10awg between the frames themselves and 6awg from the frames down to the dirt? That was the plan.

Anything not in conduit must be a minimum of #6

Which ground conductor? I have 4 here.

The #6 going from the cabin to the ground plates.

So by connecting the panels directly to the ground plates, doesn't that "become a part of the ground system"?

Yes

I'm sorry if I'm being frustrating, I'm just really confused and what I put in my hand is so different than what is done on paper. Conduit out here is about $2.80/ft for the flexible water tight that I would need to encase individual wires, and if I need to buy any more copper it's going to be 2 hours and 85 miles each way as I just bought out the last place.

Not a problem.
I won't give up, until it makes sense to you.

 

[Rednecktek]

At NO TIME did anybody suggest ground plates should be isolated...

Every piece of metal must be connected to the ground system...

You are allowed to have ground plates at the array, but they MUST be connected to the main grounding system.

Yes, sorry, what I meant by that is that the wire screwed to the south array has to physically be somewhere, so either it has to hang out in mid air OR sit in the same trench as the other wire going to the ground plates OR the wire from the array has to be electrically isolated from the dirt all the way from the frame to the grounding bar in the cabin. I'm not understanding why I can't just screw a wire to the frames, and connect the other end of that physical piece of round skinny copper to the clamp on the grounding plate in the dirt right below it. If you look at the krappy MSPaint sketch, as it was explained to me I need to have a piece of copper going from the south array to the ground bar, another piece of copper going from the north array to the ground bar, a 3rd wire going from the SPD to the ground bar, and a 4th wire going from the ground bar to the grounding plates in the dirt. That's 3 pieces of skinny round copper sitting in the dirt right next to each other.

 

[timselectric]

Also, if you have the patience, please elaborate on this one too. My intention is to ensure that there is only 1 N-G bond in the system, that the main system has more than minimum surface area for ground plates, and that in the event of the panel arrays getting charged there is somewhere for that energy to go within budgetary and terrain restraints. Where is the unsafe part coming from and how does that work?

Unless I misunderstood what I was replying to.
I thought that you had said that you were connecting the frames to the plates, and nowhere else.
The grounding system is created by and begins at the N/G bond. All grounding must connect back to that point.

 

[Rednecktek]

Anything not in conduit must be a minimum of #6

So I need to use 6awg jumpers from frame to frame? Krap, that's going to be a bitch.

The #6 going from the cabin to the ground plates.

Yes

so I CAN connect the arrays to the grounding plates? What about the whole "everything needs its own connection to the ground bar" from my other thread? So confused...

Not a problem.
I won't give up, until it makes sense to you.

Challenge accepted!

 

[Crowz]

#6 wire if you don't want to put it in conduit buried all by itself going to the house for ground.

The magic words are #6 = conduit not required.

 

[Rednecktek]

Unless I misunderstood what I was replying to.
I thought that you had said that you were connecting the frames to the plates, and nowhere else.

Yes, that's exactly what I want to do, otherwise I gotta have multiple lengths of copper wire in the dirt next to each other AND spend 4 hours and $100 in gas to go buy $160 of wire OR all of that AND $2.80/ft for more conduit so the wires from the arrays don't touch the dirt between the arrays or each other. So either 3 pieces of copper in the dirt and a conduit run for the SPD/combiner box wires, OR 4 runs of conduit.

The grounding system is created by and begins at the N/G bond. All grounding must connect back to that point.

Hence the confusion...

 

[timselectric]

Yes, sorry, what I meant by that is that the wire screwed to the south array has to physically be somewhere, so either it has to hang out in mid air OR sit in the same trench as the other wire going to the ground plates OR the wire from the array has to be electrically isolated from the dirt all the way from the frame to the grounding bar in the cabin. I'm not understanding why I can't just screw a wire to the frames, and connect the other end of that physical piece of round skinny copper to the clamp on the grounding plate in the dirt right below it. If you look at the krappy MSPaint sketch, as it was explained to me I need to have a piece of copper going from the south array to the ground bar, another piece of copper going from the north array to the ground bar, a 3rd wire going from the SPD to the ground bar, and a 4th wire going from the ground bar to the grounding plates in the dirt. That's 3 pieces of skinny round copper sitting in the dirt right next to each other.

The best option for your situation.
#6 from cabin to both ground plates.
Connect frames, and SPD of each array to the ground plate under it.
This is not how I would design it. But we are working with what you have.

 

[timselectric]

What about the whole "everything needs its own connection to the ground bar" from my other thread?

I don't know where that comes from.
But ignore it.

 

[timselectric]

Connect frames, and SPD of each array to the ground plate under it.

Further clarification.
Connect frames together.
Connect from closest frame to combiner/SPD.
Connect from combiner/SPD to ground plate.
One conductor from each place to the next.

 

[Rednecktek]

Well, it dried out so I grabbed a head light and played in the dirt. The ground wire between the two plates in the dirt and the cabin is in the trench, and the conduit from the camp to the combiner box is in place. I'll do the actual wire fishing tomorrow.

Now that I've got a clearer picture of where everything goes, I'm almost ready to climb under the trailer side with tools and the bus bar and connect all the pieces to each other.

 

[cj5orion]

So the Karen story (now that I have a proper keyboard in hand) was just ... yeah...

So I leave my brother's house near Seattle about 6am running on about 4 hours of sleep and I've got an 8 hour drive ahead of me to get here. About 3/4 of the way I'm fading fast, weaving in and out of my lane, just too tired to drive safely. A few miles later comes a rest stop, so I pull over. I park under some shade, tilt the seat back a little and rest my eyes. About 20 minutes later I hear a knocking on my window. There's a middle-aged lady out there glaring daggers at me, so I roll down my window. She then proceeds to lay into me about how a rest stop isn't some place I can sleep, and that if I need to rest I should go home or rent a hotel room. I'm tired and cranky so I tell her something along the lines of "Well, I'm too tired to drive safely so I'm pulling into a REST STOP so I can REST so I can drive SAFELY, or would she rather I run someone off the road?" She tells me she's going to call the police on me and I reply along the lines of "Well it's a DoT rest stop, so why don't you call the DoT, the phone number is on the truck parked next to me, right behind you. Or if you'd like I can call the police for her as I'm feeling very harassed and they might want to come out and deal with an aggressive individual. Or you can just F#@K OFF!". I then rolled up my window, trying not to smile at the look of shock on her face and got another 20 minutes of sleep.

Made my day AND the rest of the drive was safe.

??????

 

[Rednecktek]

I have harnessed the power of the sun!!

Is what I'd like to say, but thrre's something odd going on...

@combiner box:
Array-1 : 103.6v
Array-2 : 103.5v
Array-3 : 103.8v
Array-4 : 105.2v
Main breaker : 103.6v

Disconnect @ Growatt : 103.2v
Growatt shows 103v, 2w
Battery @ 72.6%
Inverter on


So confused...

 

[yodamota]

I have harnessed the power of the sun!!

Is what I'd like to say, but thrre's something odd going on...

@combiner box:
Array-1 : 103.6v
Array-2 : 103.5v
Array-3 : 103.8v
Array-4 : 105.2v
Main breaker : 103.6v

Disconnect @ Growatt : 103.2v
Growatt shows 103v, 2w
Battery @ 72.6%
Inverter on


So confused...

check all the connections. did you put mc4 connectors on any wiring? I installed one mc4 connector which was loose when I took it apart.