Renogy 100ah AGM / Renogy 100ah Hybrid Gel

[hwy17]

I would like to build a modest 48v battery for light testing with a Schneider XW+. Not high loads or real house backup use on this battery.

I know the common answer is to go EG4/etc. and I am still considering that.

I have always had great success with Powersonic in other applications for agm batteries. But their 100ah deep cycles are hard to find and expensive.

Renogy is significantly undercutting competitors in the market for this size VRLA.

Does anyone have any experience or comments on the Renogy 100ah?

Main questions are:

1. Are they legitimately what they claim to be, or are they really a crappy 50ah pretending to be 100ah?
2. Is their "hybrid gel" version actually a gel battery, or marketing language pretending that an agm is gel?

 

[Ryujin]

I got 8 of the 200 AH, have been running our house solely off them for a month now. No complaints- ask me again in a year, and then another year after that.
I have not done a capacity test, so can't really answer your first question, and don't know anything about your second question either. I will say their delivery guy fucked up and sent it to the wrong address on the wrong day without calling me, the only reason I got them is because the address they were shipped to called the police who then called me to come get them. But when I called Renogy they answered quickly, the person had to talk to a supervisor, and then called me back and refunded 10% because of the fuck up. So I have no complaints about their customer service.

 

[Zwy]

I would like to build a modest 48v battery for light testing with a Schneider XW+. Not high loads or real house backup use on this battery.

I know the common answer is to go EG4/etc. and I am still considering that.

I have always had great success with Powersonic in other applications for agm batteries. But their 100ah deep cycles are hard to find and expensive.

Renogy is significantly undercutting competitors in the market for this size VRLA.

Does anyone have any experience or comments on the Renogy 100ah?

Main questions are:

1. Are they legitimately what they claim to be, or are they really a crappy 50ah pretending to be 100ah?
2. Is their "hybrid gel" version actually a gel battery, or marketing language pretending that an agm is gel?

Why anyone would consider lead acid if they didn't have a battery unless the environment required it is beyond my comprehension. By environment, I mean having to charge with freezing temps (which will affect battery capacity on discharge).

The really big problem with any lead acid battery on a solar system is the absorption period required to get to full charge. It is why you see posts in this section of the forum where members have lead acid batteries that failed prematurely. It is due to the limited charge time solar offers. You can start absorb charge with full sun but may never finish due to the sunset. Then loads are on the battery overnight and the process repeats, the battery never gets to full charge thus leading to hard sulfation on the plates.

The problem is compounded by people choosing a VRLA which can't be equalized to remove sulfation with only one VRLA battery manufacturer that recommends it.

The second big problem is capacity. Lead acid is considered 50% of Ah capacity although some AGM manufacturers claim 70% discharge capacity. It really is 50%. A 100Ah lead acid battery is 50Ah of usable capacity.

It's one thing if you have access to free lead acid batteries, quite another if you are paying for the battery.

If you choose to go this route, double that battery bank size, use one half to receive absorb charge to full while using the other half to supply power, then reverse once the half ends absorb. The doubling in size also will help with the 50% capacity.

The one final thing is any lead acid battery will corrode the surroundings even if it is called sealed. Electrolyte will wick on terminals and over pressurization will allow some to be vented. LFP has none of those problems.

Considering all of this and having to double bank size, is lead acid a good idea on a solar system?

 

[Ryujin]

Why anyone would consider lead acid if they didn't have a battery unless the environment required it is beyond my comprehension. By environment, I mean having to charge with freezing temps (which will affect battery capacity on discharge).

The really big problem with any lead acid battery on a solar system is the absorption period required to get to full charge. It is why you see posts in this section of the forum where members have lead acid batteries that failed prematurely. It is due to the limited charge time solar offers. You can start absorb charge with full sun but may never finish due to the sunset. Then loads are on the battery overnight and the process repeats, the battery never gets to full charge thus leading to hard sulfation on the plates.

The problem is compounded by people choosing a VRLA which can't be equalized to remove sulfation with only one VRLA battery manufacturer that recommends it.

The second big problem is capacity. Lead acid is considered 50% of Ah capacity although some AGM manufacturers claim 70% discharge capacity. It really is 50%. A 100Ah lead acid battery is 50Ah of usable capacity.

It's one thing if you have access to free lead acid batteries, quite another if you are paying for the battery.

If you choose to go this route, double that battery bank size, use one half to receive absorb charge to full while using the other half to supply power, then reverse once the half ends absorb. The doubling in size also will help with the 50% capacity.

The one final thing is any lead acid battery will corrode the surroundings even if it is called sealed. Electrolyte will wick on terminals and over pressurization will allow some to be vented. LFP has none of those problems.

Considering all of this and having to double bank size, is lead acid a good idea on a solar system?

Why everyone on this forum seems to live in places that don't experience freexing is beyond me.

If you choose to go this route, double that battery bank size, use one half to receive absorb charge to full while using the other half to supply power, then reverse once the half ends absorb. The doubling in size also will help with the 50% capacity.

I've basically gone this route, though both sets of batteries seem to consistently be at 100% by 12-1 PM, with full sun ad the charge reduced to about .05 C, so I think the systems are sized appropriately.

Also to add why people might go lead acid:

Lower initial cost.

More beginner friendly- unless you go with a smart LiFePO battery, theres a lot involved with a DiY LiFePO, initial balancing, installing a BMS etc...
So again, lower initial cost- with the LiFePO you're either paying a lot more for the smart battery, or an additional cost for the BMS.

Time tested, a lot of the claims of how long a LiFePO will last are longer than the companies selling them have been around. Lead acid have been used long enough we are pretty sure of how long they will last if treated properly.

No reputation for starting fires. I know the current lithium batteries are safer than the polymer ones, but lead acid have a reputation for being a fire danger.

And again the reason why I picked mine, not having to worry about not being able to charge it in the winter, where its often below freeing here. I do plan on setting up a Lithium battery bank in the future, probably next winter if the funds are available. But it will involve building housing for it that can be insulated and heated again an additional cost. I want more power though and I want the experience of building a LiFePO bank from cells.

 

[Zwy]

Freezes here, gets to below -30F in the winter. I don't have a problem here.

If one is to compare Ah to Ah and account for the doubling of bank size just to be able to complete full absorb charge, it is more expensive to go with the Renogy 100Ah gel cell battery. That was at $215 USD for the Renogy. You would need 8 x $215= $1720

A 100Ah EG4 is $1399. How is that lower initial cost?

The Renogy 100Ah is rated for 750 cycles, LFP 6,000 cycles.

As for reaching 100% full charge everyday by 12-1pm, you are not at full charge with lead acid due to the internal resistance of the battery will slow down the charge rate unless you didn't have any load overnight. I've worked with plenty of lead acid batteries, I know how it charges. Either you do not understand absorption charge and equalization or are uninformed. Either way, the battery determines charge rate and it will only accept X number of amps during absorption. If the battery doesn't reach full charge with absorption, it will die from sulfation over time. You been playing with lead acid for a month, you certainly have much to learn.

I'll just add that if you were to actually use a system with a LFP battery compared to any lead acid battery, you would understand why LFP is way more advantageous. There is no comparison. LFP beats lead acid in every aspect.

 

[hwy17]

Edit: I was confused about which thread I was in.

Yes I have lost my personal battle against the stream and am looking forward to starting a Lifepower4 bank.

 

[Tomthumb62]

The really big problem with any lead acid battery on a solar system is the absorption period required to get to full charge. It is why you see posts in this section of the forum where members have lead acid batteries that failed prematurely.

We have killed four 100Ah Renogy AGM batteries this way. At $200/ea, that could’ve bought us a decent 200Ah lithium.

That said, Renogy’s warranty process was quite good as one battery arrived leaking and they even replaced two more under warranty even though I think the majority of the fault was our own for having an underpowered solar system.

That said again, I would not buy Renogy’s AGMs again as I am not convinced they weren’t just cheaply built batteries to begin with. Even brand new they didn’t perform well. For a bit more money you can get much higher quality AGMs or budget lithium.

 

[Zwy]

Edit: I was confused about which thread I was in.

Yes I have lost my personal battle against the stream and am looking forward to starting a Lifepower4 bank.

Not much to building a battery, quality BMS and cells. In my signature, I have a link to my truck camper build and the 55Kwh bank in my house.

You don't have your location so shipping might make DIY a better deal. I paid $2313 shipped for 16 304Ah grade B cells from 18650 Battery Store. Those cells hold balance better than some of the 280Ah Grade A cells I purchased elsewhere. Cheap BMS and a class T fuse along with some cables and you are in business.

Or go with the EG4 if you aren't comfortable building one.

 

[Zwy]

We have killed four 100Ah Renogy AGM batteries this way. At $200/ea, that could’ve bought us a decent 200Ah lithium.

That said, Renogy’s warranty process was quite good as one battery arrived leaking and they even replaced two more under warranty even though I think the majority of the fault was our own for having an underpowered solar system.

That said again, I would not buy Renogy’s AGMs again as I am not convinced they weren’t just cheaply built batteries to begin with. Even brand new they didn’t perform well. For a bit more money you can get much higher quality AGMs or budget lithium.

Lead acid has a place but for any solar power system, it doesn't make sense since LFP became commonly available. Lead acid requires human input to ensure full charge in order to ensure sulfation doesn't occur. Human input can lead to mistakes.

Getting the full absorption charge into a lead acid battery takes time as you found out, it just doesn't work well with solar unless there is a way to charge thru an absorption such as running 2 banks where a battery charger charges the idle bank to full SOC after the sun goes down. That has efficiency losses.

Long term LFP is the answer. Doesn't require a full SOC to be reached, actually likes not having a full charge.

 

[hwy17]

Not much to building a battery, quality BMS and cells. In my signature, I have a link to my truck camper build and the 55Kwh bank in my house.

You don't have your location so shipping might make DIY a better deal. I paid $2313 shipped for 16 304Ah grade B cells from 18650 Battery Store. Those cells hold balance better than some of the 280Ah Grade A cells I purchased elsewhere. Cheap BMS and a class T fuse along with some cables and you are in business.

Or go with the EG4 if you aren't comfortable building one.

I am concerned about BMS communication compatibility with the Schneider. With the Lifepower4 it seems like there is more concentrated focus and development available to keep that stuff working.

 

[Ryujin]

Either you do not understand absorption charge and equalization or are uninformed.

Sounds like you said the same thing twice.

Either way, the battery determines charge rate and it will only accept X number of amps during absorption. If the battery doesn't reach full charge with absorption, it will die from sulfation over time.

So you are telling me if I wake up to the battery monitor saying its at 95%, it reaches 100% by noon, and by 1 PM the charging current is 0.30 AMPs, on a 2s2p 200 AH battery bank, that it isn't full? If not, how long would you say to leave it charging on the 27.2 float voltage to consider it full?

My other system is still charging at 6 amps in boost voltage 29.2, so I know that one isn't 100% full. I've disconected it from all loads once during this month and let it charge for 2 days.
The third system is used AGM batteries previously used by Sprint, I'm assuming for cell towers.
I don't have a battery monitor on that one, but I let it go to float before using it. Its currently powering 600W constantly during daylight hours, and seems to stay on float unless it gets cloudy. Again, how long would you recommend leaving this on float with no load to ensure full charge?

Regarding the sulfation, the charge controllers claim to run an equalization for 2 hours every 28 days, and the spec sheet for the batteries seems to agree with the charge controllers equalization voltage. The SCC manual says to have no load while doing this process, unfortunately I didn't catch it during that time, but the load was probably minimal. After moving and rebuilding these I will be diligent about the day I set them up so I can ensure this no load time happens. Any more input on the sulfation?

Lastly, these batteries ended up being roughly $2500 for 8 200 AH batteries., so 800 usable AH for $2500. Your cheap EG4 (which I understand doesn't have a huge discharge amp rating), would only be 1/4 of that for the same price. I feel like I had to learn a lot to wire up these systems without adding learning LiFePO onto the list, so I don't regret getting these batteries for now. Maybe in a year I'll feel different.

Anyway, I certainly have much to learn, so please educate me on those questions?

 

[Ryujin]

Freezes here, gets to below -30F in the winter. I don't have a problem here.

after looking through your build, I don't think you really comprehended that I have a tiny house with no space for a decent sized battery bank inside. Having to build an outbuilding makes the cold temperatures a lot different vs having space in your house to put batteries where they won't freeze.

 

[Zwy]

I am concerned about BMS communication compatibility with the Schneider. With the Lifepower4 it seems like there is more concentrated focus and development available to keep that stuff working.

I run without BMS communication and my systems work fine. It is not necessary and adds another failure point.

I would not let that be a factor concerning adoption of LFP. Take the EG4 battery communication with the EG4 inverters. Plagued with problems, many ended up using USER settings and no communication.

 

[Zwy]

Sounds like you said the same thing twice.

No, I did not. Either you do not understand the charging modes or you are uninformed. I tried not be derogatory. Basically, you are ware of the modes but do not understand the modes or you have no knowledge of the modes or what you do know is incorrect. Those are not the same thing.

So you are telling me if I wake up to the battery monitor saying its at 95%, it reaches 100% by noon, and by 1 PM the charging current is 0.30 AMPs, on a 2s2p 200 AH battery bank, that it isn't full? If not, how long would you say to leave it charging on the 27.2 float voltage to consider it full?

My other system is still charging at 6 amps in boost voltage 29.2, so I know that one isn't 100% full. I've disconected it from all loads once during this month and let it charge for 2 days.

Go to the spec sheet, right hand side and note the charge curve, this was for the original 100Ah Gel battery in this thread. https://www.renogy.com/content/RBT100GEL12-G1/GEL100-Datasheet.pdf

For 200Ah AGM, (I didn't dig for a Gel 200Ah), you go here https://www.renogy.com/content/RNG-BATT-AGM12-200/AGM200-Datasheet.pdf

Below you state 800Ah of battery capacity but I'm not quite certain if you are using 100Ah batteries or 200Ah batteries (it does appear you possibly have 200ah). Will make a huge difference on charge rate. Any batteries in series do not increase total Ah capacity, it only doubles the voltage. Batteries in parallel will double the total Ah capacity. Note I said total Ah capacity, of which 50% is usable.

As full charge is reached and charger hits C.V. charge current should drop to .01CA. Note that Renogy states 13.6V to 13.8V for a full charge. 13.8V with 2 batteries in series would be 27.6V and not 27.2V. If you hold at 27.6V and rate is less than .01CA, then it should be fully charged.

Using the charge curve, from a 50% discharge, it should take 12 hours to fully charge the battery (double that with a 2P bank) starting at around .11CA.

The third system is used AGM batteries previously used by Sprint, I'm assuming for cell towers.
I don't have a battery monitor on that one, but I let it go to float before using it. Its currently powering 600W constantly during daylight hours, and seems to stay on float unless it gets cloudy. Again, how long would you recommend leaving this on float with no load to ensure full charge?

You should look up the manufacturers charge curve and the battery capacity. But basically the same, .01CA.

Regarding the sulfation, the charge controllers claim to run an equalization for 2 hours every 28 days, and the spec sheet for the batteries seems to agree with the charge controllers equalization voltage. The SCC manual says to have no load while doing this process, unfortunately I didn't catch it during that time,

Ahhh, the human error factor I mentioned above. It happens.

but the load was probably minimal. After moving and rebuilding these I will be diligent about the day I set them up so I can ensure this no load time happens. Any more input on the sulfation?

EQ on AGM is difficult due to not being able to measure cell specific gravity. I've seen where Enersys uses battery voltage, you do need to be accurate when performing EQ.

Flooded lead acid allows EQ over extended time frames as distilled water can be added as it may take many hours for cells to equalize and sulfation removed. For AGM, this option is not available so it becomes a case of EQ can actually damage the cells. For this reason, it is better to get full absorb charge into a AGM battery and not perform EQ unless the battery shows signs of sulfation such as decreased capacity. This does require occasional teardown and testing individual batteries for capacity.

Lastly, these batteries ended up being roughly $2500 for 8 200 AH batteries.

200Ah AGM from Renogy is $380 each. $3040 for 8

, so 800 usable AH for $2500. Your cheap EG4 (which I understand doesn't have a huge discharge amp rating),

1C discharge rating on a LFP battery and believe me, it won't suffer from the voltage sag seen with lead acid.

As for the EG4, I advocate for DIY myself, check out the links in my signature.

You say 800Ah. Let's just figure watts instead. 8x12x200=19,200Wh divided by 50%= 9600Wh usable

So for $2800 plus shipping (let's just say $3040 same as the Renogy) we get two EG4 24V 200Ah= 5120Wh x 2= 10,240Wh x .90= 9216Wh usable

would only be 1/4 of that for the same price.

I just showed the price is just slightly more for the EG4 with less than 400Wh less capacity.

But the Renogy is rated to 750 cycles at 50% DOD, that comes to $3.33 per cycle. (Look at the chart for battery cycle life and DOD on the spec sheet) The EG4 is rated for 6000 cycles, that comes to $0.506 per cycle.

Is the lead acid really the better deal? If we compute per Wh over the expected lifespan of the battery, there is really no comparison. This doesn't even account for ensuring full charge is reached often with lead acid and desulfation.

I feel like I had to learn a lot to wire up these systems without adding learning LiFePO onto the list, so I don't regret getting these batteries for now. Maybe in a year I'll feel different.

Anyway, I certainly have much to learn, so please educate me on those questions?

I've just touched on a few things, I could build DIY batteries for much less than the EG4 with more capacity. $2313 for the 16 304Ah cells is 14,592Wh x .9= 13,132Wh usable

 

[Sabre36]

I would like to build a modest 48v battery for light testing with a Schneider XW+. Not high loads or real house backup use on this battery.

I know the common answer is to go EG4/etc. and I am still considering that.

I have always had great success with Powersonic in other applications for agm batteries. But their 100ah deep cycles are hard to find and expensive.

Renogy is significantly undercutting competitors in the market for this size VRLA.

Does anyone have any experience or comments on the Renogy 100ah?

Main questions are:

1. Are they legitimately what they claim to be, or are they really a crappy 50ah pretending to be 100ah?
2. Is their "hybrid gel" version actually a gel battery, or marketing language pretending that an agm is gel?

I had a customer bring me his Renogy AGM batteries as after 3-cycles to 50% DoD he thought something was fishy. We know AGM batts take 3- 7 cycles to reach capacity so we ran a few more 50%- 100% cycles then conducted a 20 hour capacity test. These brand new Renogy AGM batteries could only deliver 72% of rated capacity. Last time I spoke with him Renogy had ghosted him and he never did get warranty replacements. typical stuff with Renogy….

 

[Ryujin]

200Ah AGM from Renogy is $380 each. $3040 for 8

Well I got a initial 5 or 10 % discount, then they gave me another 10% discount for their shipping SNAFU

I 100% appreciate your thought out responses, and though I did find your initial statement a little condescending its ok...
I completely do want to get into Lithium, but one of my main concerns was freezing, so for an initial build and not having insulated space for storing batteries, lead seemed the tried and true way to go for me. I definitely looked into lithium, and it generally seemed about 25% more expensive for the same watt hours. I definitely was aware of the cycles being significantly lower, and see that more of a downside than the energy density. Like I said, maybe in a year I'll regret it, but currently they've been working good, i've been babying them (i think 75% DoD per the Shunt is the lowest any of them have gotten, and most mornings I wake up to 85-90% for one, and 95% for the other)

But when I do build some LiFePO batteries, I will definitely be following your build and asking you some more questions.

 

[Ryujin]

I had a customer bring me his Renogy AGM batteries as after 3-cycles to 50% DoD he thought something was fishy.

How did he measure those 3 50% cycles? What made him think something was fishy?

We know AGM batts take 3- 7 cycles to reach capacity

Can you explain this more?

 

[Ryujin]

I've just touched on a few things, I could build DIY batteries for much less than the EG4 with more capacity. $2313 for the 16 304Ah cells is 14,592Wh x .9= 13,132Wh usable

+ BMS, a rack (some form of compression as well if I've read stuff right?), some more connecting bars. Guess I'd need to upgrade my my inverter and SCC to 48 V if I didn't want to buy a second BMS? or can 1 BMS run two parallel banks? I also read about additional stuff you should have when going over 50V as a 48V system requires, so that, as a newbie to solar made me want to go 24V. Not going to lie this looks like a tempting buy next winter:

EG4 18KPV Hybrid Inverter System Bundle - 15.36kWH EG4 Lithium Powerwall [BNDL-E0004]

Signature Solar provides solar panels, off-grid solar systems, grid-tie, and hybrid systems. Quality solar inverters, bifacial solar panels, complete solar kits, solar batteries. Featuring brands such as EG4 Electronics with their solar battery, LifePower4 and EG4 LLifePower4 and EG4 LL

signaturesolar.com

If I have the funds and time for it and a heated outbuilding. Or possibly a workshop by then that can double as a place to keep the batteries warm. But honestly I'd rather just do a DiY 24 V to use my existing equipment.

So in regards to your DiY battery build, who would you go through/what kind of cells would you purchase? I feel like I mostly see people talk about EVE, REPT, and CATL, and theres debate about which to buy over others and A grade vs B grade, and which particular AH corresponds to a good run etc... etc... (which quite frankly just typing this out makes me feel, yet again, OK with starting off with some lead acids. #remindMeOneYear)

 

[Zwy]

+ BMS, a rack (some form of compression as well if I've read stuff right?), some more connecting bars.

I prefer compression but many just place cells on a shelf. Cells will come busbars, these are sufficient as long as the busbars are not plated brass. Use cable to run from the negative and positive posts is the easiest.

Guess I'd need to upgrade my my inverter and SCC to 48 V if I didn't want to buy a second BMS? or can 1 BMS run two parallel banks?

It is preferred to go to a 48V 16S BMS and not series 2 24V batteries simply due to balancing. You could go 48V now with 4 of your current batteries in series.

I also read about additional stuff you should have when going over 50V as a 48V system requires,

You will want Class T fuses from the battery and any components used need to be rated for 48V nominal. Nothing else is special when moving to 48V.

so that, as a newbie to solar made me want to go 24V. Not going to lie this looks like a tempting buy next winter:

EG4 18KPV Hybrid Inverter System Bundle - 15.36kWH EG4 Lithium Powerwall [BNDL-E0004]

Signature Solar provides solar panels, off-grid solar systems, grid-tie, and hybrid systems. Quality solar inverters, bifacial solar panels, complete solar kits, solar batteries. Featuring brands such as EG4 Electronics with their solar battery, LifePower4 and EG4 LLifePower4 and EG4 LL

signaturesolar.com

Time will tell if that inverter is a proven performer. $5600 for just that inverter when one could buy a couple of LV6548's from Watts247 for $2099. Two gives 32Kw of charging power and 13Kw of 240V power which is more than the 18Kw PV input and 12Kw of output.

I have tested the LV6548, it puts out clean power. Proven unit if you can work with the lower PV VOC rating. There are ways around that however and if distance from PV to the LV6548 is not far, the lower VOC rating doesn't matter.

If I have the funds and time for it and a heated outbuilding. Or possibly a workshop by then that can double as a place to keep the batteries warm. But honestly I'd rather just do a DiY 24 V to use my existing equipment.

Higher DC voltage is where the real power begins. No different than moving from 12V to 24V, the output capacity doubles quickly with less compnent/wiring stress.

So in regards to your DiY battery build, who would you go through/what kind of cells would you purchase? I feel like I mostly see people talk about EVE, REPT, and CATL, and theres debate about which to buy over others and A grade vs B grade, and which particular AH corresponds to a good run etc... etc... (which quite frankly just typing this out makes me feel, yet again, OK with starting off with some lead acids. #remindMeOneYear)

If in the US, the place to buy is 18650 Battery Store. I've purchased cells from China in the past. But I did purchase 16 304Ah EVE Grade B from 18650 and these hold balance well, test over 304Ah on capacity (minimum 310Ah) and these cells looked brand new.

Right now they are out of many cells, so if you want a particular brand/terminal type, then just save your money and wait until the cells are in stock. I would buy those 304Ah cells again in a heartbeat. Go search in the threads here, you will find members have tested various brands and the results.