Schneider XW Pro generator connection progress

[pvdude]

Decided to go ahead and provision the option to connect the generator to the
Schneider inverters, so as to be able to charge the Rolls FLA batteries.

Might also use the generator to support loads, under certain conditions, if I can
decipher the XW Pro generator configuration options.

From reading the Schneider documentation, it looks like the load can be simultaneously
supported by the AC2 generator input, batteries and PV.

Need to find an inverter configuration that limits the input on AC2, so that the generator
output (90A) does not fry the XW Pro AC2 relay (60A)

Right now, the Diesel generator is completely separate from the XW Pro inverters.
One or the other can power the house.

A manual transfer switch connects the house to either the inverter output, or the generator.
It is designed this way because the generator can produce almost 90A, and the
Schneider generator input is limited to 60A.

There are occasions when it is helpful to be able to provide 90A to the house, Schneider inverters do not provide that much output.

So the plan is to add another Hubbell HBL5100R9W "pin & sleeve" type,
100A receptacle for the generator output plug.


It will thus be possible to plug the generator in to either the house receptacle,
or the inverter receptacle.
I only expect to have to perform this manual procedure rarely, in exceptional conditions.

A new receptacle connects the generator to the Schneider inverter AC2 inputs,
so I can use the generator to charge the batteries and supplement the Schneider
output during prolonged cloudy days (typically before-during-after hurricanes),
or if Gort obliterates the Sun.

Klaatu (The Day the Earth Stood Still) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[GVSolar]

Klaatu barata nikto. '
Nuff said.

 

[dougbert]

if you haven't already found the GENERAL DRAW control it is in inverter menu:

CONFIGURATION -> ADVANCED -> GENERATOR SUPPORT -> Generator Support Amps on AC2

Range: 0..48 amps

My question is: With 2 XW Pro's, can it be configured that each XW can draw 48 amps EACH, at the same time? Or does the system restrict to a max of 48 amps across both generators, since there is a separate circuit and breaker to each generator? I bet it is the latter

Getting my generator feed line connected to the inverter, etc. this week. I installed a 50 amp circuit with 6 awg wire, to allow for bigger generator later

New generator arrived yesterday. I am starting with a DuroMax XP5500EH, dual fuel to begin with, with a 30 amp cable and an adapter converter from 30 amp cord to 50 amp inlet box.

 

[pvdude]

XW can draw 48 amps EACH

The PDP has a 60A breaker for each inverter AC2 connection. They are "paralleled" w/ jumpers. Seems like the inverter firmware makes two XW-Pro inverters appear as one single larger inverter to the systems. So I suspect the limit is for the system.

 

[Supervstech]

Klaatu barata nikto. '
Nuff said.

The day yhe earth stood still movie reference, and also the magic words supposed to be used by ash in evil dead/army of darkness

 

[dougbert]

given the XW Pro's other limits, 48 amps would figure as the limit

48 amps @ 240 is still 11,520 watts of power, nothing to sneeze at.

Would need a 13,000 watt continuous generator or 15,000 watts surge or so to sustain such at partial load

around 220-240 amps to the 48 volt battery

 

[pvdude]

around 220-240 amps to the 48 volt battery

Good point, Rolls tech support told me not to exceed 80A charge rate into the old batteries.
(Another reason I avoided the generator connection to the system)

The new batteries can take 300A, so all the numbers are in the right range now.

 

[dougbert]

Keep me/us informed on progress.

I am almost done adding all the infrastructure to support Dual Pro's - adding (storing) second set of various cables

always another toy to add

 

[JBertok]

....digging up another post from a while back...

The XWs won't take any more than they're rated to handle through the internal relays, just like they self-limit on AC1.

That generator appears to have different output maximums for gas (18.75A) versus propane (17.81A).

Assuming gasoline, I would configure for about a 90% duty on the generators as a starting, and then split that between the two XWs. 8.5A each for AC2 setting, for example. The XW chargers will take any current left after the loads are satisfied and pull maximum power from AC2, up to the battery charger current limit. If the loads exceed AC2 the inverters make up the difference from battery. Another consideration here is that this AC2 limit setting in the XWs is total between both legs. If there is a scenario of 120V load imbalance between L1 and L2, check that it doesn't pull too much on one leg of your generator and trip there.

Some portables, with their low rotating mass, are a little sluggish to respond to surge loads. It would be good to test and observe this. When the XWs see power on AC2 they will begin the Qualification Reconnect Delay if voltage and frequency are within the min/max windows. When that relay snaps shut the generator has to quickly be able to compensate for the new load so the output doesn't fall out of spec and cause the XW to trip out of qualification, which could then be a cycle.

Small non-inverter generators are tricky to use as a "generator" since the XW architecture references all its functionality from their waveform while qualified. It's worth the effort to find setpoints everything is happy with because you'll have complete control over where that power is going. If it proves too tedious, there is the option of adding a 5kW EG4 ChargeVerter completely independent of XANBUS control, and making your generator just a "battery charger". The advantage there is that you can put a steady load on the generator, but the challenge then becomes keeping the charge rate of your batteries from being exceeded if the loads drop off.

 

[dougbert]

....digging up another post from a while back...

The XWs won't take any more than they're rated to handle through the internal relays, just like they self-limit on AC1.

That generator appears to have different output maximums for gas (18.75A) versus propane (17.81A).

Assuming gasoline, I would configure for about a 90% duty on the generators as a starting, and then split that between the two XWs. 8.5A each for AC2 setting, for example. The XW chargers will take any current left after the loads are satisfied and pull maximum power from AC2, up to the battery charger current limit. If the loads exceed AC2 the inverters make up the difference from battery. Another consideration here is that this AC2 limit setting in the XWs is total between both legs. If there is a scenario of 120V load imbalance between L1 and L2, check that it doesn't pull too much on one leg of your generator and trip there.

Some portables, with their low rotating mass, are a little sluggish to respond to surge loads. It would be good to test and observe this. When the XWs see power on AC2 they will begin the Qualification Reconnect Delay if voltage and frequency are within the min/max windows. When that relay snaps shut the generator has to quickly be able to compensate for the new load so the output doesn't fall out of spec and cause the XW to trip out of qualification, which could then be a cycle.

Small non-inverter generators are tricky to use as a "generator" since the XW architecture references all its functionality from their waveform while qualified. It's worth the effort to find setpoints everything is happy with because you'll have complete control over where that power is going. If it proves too tedious, there is the option of adding a 5kW EG4 ChargeVerter completely independent of XANBUS control, and making your generator just a "battery charger". The advantage there is that you can put a steady load on the generator, but the challenge then becomes keeping the charge rate of your batteries from being exceeded if the loads drop off.

powering the chargeverter from the genny is what I have done.

I installed a 6 space breaker panel in my power room from the genny, to supply to:

1) The XW Pro via AC2 on a 60 amp breaker
2) Chargeinverter tied to the DC bus bar, on a 30 amp breaker
3) 2 20 amp 120v outlets, one on each leg

this gives me manual control on who is getting power

50 amp INLET plug out near the generator on the west fence line, parking lot beyond that

currently have a new DuroMax 5500 (surge) DualFuel, genset and a fixed up 5500 watt (gas) continuous unit, I am playing with

thanks for the advice on set points, still experimenting.
most recent posts in My Build Thread are documenting the generator actions

 

[wheisenburg]

With a dual inverter system, you should be able to supply 60 amps. The 48 amps is a 80% derating of a single 60 amp circuit. This derating is required when a circuit is used continuously. With dual inverters no derating should be required. However just like the case of the AC1, AC2 has a 60 amp limit on the switching relays. The reason is that these contacts are mechanical devices. Say you are switching from AC2 (which is a pass through mode) to inverting. When switching one relay will always break before the other and the last relay to switch will temporarily be carrying the full load of the generator. So each relay must be capable of breaking the entire current from the generator.

There is a similar issue with AC1 switching, which is why Schneider recommends an external contactor be used for switching when going to a triple inverter setup. So if the are no other limitations in the wiring or plugs you are using, you should be able use up to 14,400 watts. With "Gen Support" setting you should be able to limit battery charging so that you do not exceed the available generator/system capacity.

One thing to be aware of is the you cannot run AC coupled PV and a generator at the same time. Schneider again recommends a contactor that creates a mutual exclusion lock out for the Gen AC and the PV AC circuits.

DC coupled PV is OK, but you need to make sure the combined generator and DC PV charging amps do not exceed what the batteries can handle.

 

[wheisenburg]

Need to find an inverter configuration that limits the input on AC2, so that the generator
output (90A) does not fry the XW Pro AC2 relay (60A)

Right now, the Diesel generator is completely separate from the XW Pro inverters.
One or the other can power the house.

A manual transfer switch connects the house to either the inverter output, or the generator.
It is designed this way because the generator can produce almost 90A, and the
Schneider generator input is limited to 60A.

You are are on the right track here. The "Gen Support" setting should help you manage the maximum current. Depending on your load vs battery capacity, topping the batteries off once or twice a day should work great. It is much more efficient than running a 20KW generator 24/7 to keep your phone charger and night lights going at night.

You should also be aware that some things probably shouldn't be run in an emergency. Space heaters, cloths driers, Double wall ovens, swimming pool pumps, and hot tubs come to mind. Electric hot water heaters are questionable.

Do be aware that AC coupled PV ands Generators can't be run at the same time.

 

[dougbert]

I am totally DC coupled, with 48v nominal arrays

 

[wheisenburg]

given the XW Pro's other limits, 48 amps would figure as the limit

48 amps @ 240 is still 11,520 watts of power, nothing to sneeze at.

I believe the correct setting for grid support will be 30 amps. This is set at each inverter, giving you 60 amps total. To verify this set the value much lower and see at what point the system starts drawing from your battery. If you set the number to 5 on each inverter, it should limit the generator draw to 5 + 5 = 10, 10 * 240 = 2400. So drawing more than 2400 should result in current being pulled from the battery. If this is true 30 amps should get you 14,400 watts that can be safely drawn from the generator. I never use that much power. If you have central AC units you should get a soft start kit. Although you might get by without it, big startup spikes are just bad for equipment.

 

[dougbert]

I believe the correct setting for grid support will be 30 amps. This is set at each inverter, giving you 60 amps total. To verify this set the value much lower and see at what point the system starts drawing from your battery. If you set the number to 5 on each inverter, it should limit the generator draw to 5 + 5 = 10, 10 * 240 = 2400. So drawing more than 2400 should result in current being pulled from the battery. If this is true 30 amps should get you 14,400 watts that can be safely drawn from the generator. I never use that much power. If you have central AC units you should get a soft start kit. Although you might get by without it, big startup spikes are just bad for equipment.

No AC here, at 5500 ft in Utah, and fans. First thing I did before installing solar was to get efficient loads.

Good info on how 2 inverters will draw the amps. I think it will be awhile before I can generate anything near 10,000 watts. I just posted a great find on a generator I bought for $50 and all that was wrong with it was a shorted wire to the capacitors, fixed the wire and I have a new (to me) generator rated for 8000 watts

thanks for the insight