Schneider XW Pro rant: AC1 Charging and AC Passthrough

[hammick]

On the XW-Pro, there are two sets of different settings. There is "Generator Support" for the AC2 input, but it also has "Grid Support" settings for the AC1 input. My XW-Pro operates in a combination of "Grid Support" and "Sell to Grid" every night after 4 pm as the sun goes down.

"Generator Support" is very simple, with just a switch for enable/disable, and a current level setting for how much current it will allow from the generator before it begins covering the difference.

"Grid Support" is a lot more complex. Look in the XW+ settings. Do you see anything called "Grid Support"? It has 3 separate power settings. "Load Shave" is the basic equal to "Generator Support" where it will use battery power to keep the grid power draw below this set current level. But in my use case, I have Grid Sell active, so it overrides the Load Shave. Instead of waiting for the load to exceed a set current, it exports the desired current back to the grid. For it to do that, it first must supply all of the load on it's output. So that make the Load Shave do nothing.

What are you trying to make the XW+ do? If it does not have Grid Support, can you put the grid on the AC2 input and use the "Generator Support" to give you the grid support you need? Here is a screen grab of the config menu on the XW-Pro in Advanced mode

View attachment 169112
Once I click on the Advanced tab at the top, the generator support tab appears after the grid support tab. The Grid Support tab is actually there in the basic mode. So I think the XW+ likely has it too. I just checked, and when in Basic Mode, it has just 2 options like the Generator Support. Enable/Disable and the battery voltage above which it will function. You have to go into advanced to adjust the current.

The biggest difference though is that Load Shave and Grid Sell also have time settings for when they are active or blocked. Generator Support is just on or off as you set it, no timer.

Since my system also has up to 3,900 watts of power coming in to the XW-Pro output from my AC coupled Enphase microinverters, the "Sell to Grid" acts a bit different, but actually very smart. The XW-Pro is always measuring how much power is flowing in or out of the AC1 port. If I command it to "Sell" 2 amps back to the AC1 grid port, it will adjust the inverter power to hit that number at the AC1 port. But this is where it get's smart. If my Enphase inverters are already pushing 1 amp out the AC1 port, it will only add the additional 1 amp to make the total 2 amps. For my system, this is important because I am measuring the power my home is using from the main panel and commanding the XW-Pro to supply that power. The XW-Pro can only do this with an added power meter. The built in software directly supports this function with a "Watt-Node" power meter. I am doing it with a pair of cheap power meters and a PLC that I programmed. @400bird on here is doing something similar with a Raspberry Pi. Right now, the sun is still shining and my Enphase system is able to fully power my house, even the loads back in the main panel, and my battery is completely full. So the XW-Pro is sitting idle even though the house is asking for power out of the main panel. It's getting that power from the Enphase system, not from the batteries. In less than an hour though, the sun will be too low, and the XW-Pro will start to ramp up and use battery power to keep running my house with the grid power being held to basically zero.

Running the loads, the XW-Pro is very smart and capable. BUT... When it comes to charging from the AC coupled grid tied solar, it's not so smart. There is no setting in the XW-Pro that will make it start charging on it's own from AC coupled solar. There are a few ways around this, but the best is with an external controller that can detect when the Grid Tied AC coupled PV is making enough power and then have that command the XW-Pro into Bulk Charge and adjust the current to suit. There is no reason the XW-Pro couldn't do it with just the "Watt-Node" connected, but the software just is not there to do it.

Sun Power is selling their own "SunVault" storage system. But when I watched their video, sure enough, there is a Schneider XW-Pro inside their giant cabinet. Their system controller is evidently doing basically the same thing that @400bird and I are doing with his Raspberry Pi and my Nano-10 PLC.

Thank you for the thorough explanation. Our place is completely off grid. Closest power is 3 miles away as the crow flies. So the only thing I have hooked to AC1 is a generator inlet for a 2nd generator that never gets used (redundancy only). All AC coupling, grid sell, load shave, etc. is disabled.

I'm thinking of hooking the Pro Power 7.2kw inverter in the bed of my F150 Lightning to AC2 and use gen support plus if needed. I'm a little worried from other posts that somehow the XW+ could back feed the Lightning and damage it somehow. I can't wrap my head around how that could happen using AC2. Never been a problem with my 5kw diesel genset. But the Lightning cost significantly more so I'm being ultra cautious.

In any event I have a 1050w 48v golf cart charger that goes directly to the batteries so I will try that first with the Lightning to see if 22a charging at night is enough to supplement my 280ah Lishen bank when my wife goes crazy with 120v kitchen appliances. If I need more I'll look into the AC2 input method. If it's safe to use the Lightning Pro Power on AC2 I'll install a simple transfer switch and use it so I can hook my diesel genset or my Lightning to AC2 and utilize gen support with either.

The diesel genset is in the garage and exhausted out a thimble. I don't like running it at night when we are trying to enjoy the evening. It's pretty quiet but the garage is attached so it certainly can be heard. Outside you can barely hear it. We are in prime elk habitat and I hate it when neighbors run their loud ass gensets. You can hear them over a mile away.

 

[dougbert]

You could run an external charger completely independent of other functions, and use the Auxiliary Relay control in the XW to manage it.
Here's the list of triggers to choose from:
View attachment 166441

started my strawman setup to use the AUX relay to my system just today. I will also be adding Remote Power Off via those control lines, at the same time

Solar house generator I started DIY back in 2000 - My path from Trace to Xantrex (on FLA battery) to XW Pro inverters on Tesla Model S batteries

Good progress! I am using a 90 amp breaker to feed inverter because I had it in parts bin. Someday I will get the 100 amp breaker. For now, with only 1 XW Pro, the 90 amp will be just fine, as 1 XW Pro won't draw much. You know the XW's relays are only rated at 60 amps?

diysolarforum.com

 

[dougbert]

BTW, if you are running the Gateway/InsightLocal on firmware v1.18 BN 33 either upgrade to BN 41 or back flash to v1.17

BN33 is toxic to ethernet operation

 

[400bird]

If the XW Pro is like the XW+ only the AC2 input can support the loads.

That can't be correct, even for the XW+

If you have a grid connection, and the battery (supporting loads) runs low overnight (no generator) what's going to happen? Will the grid (connected to AC 1) power loads? Or will there be nothing to power the loads? It seems pretty obvious that the grid would power loads, thus:

AC power can pass through directly to the loads. It can pass through to the load and charge the battery.
It can pass through to the loads and the inverter can assist to provide some portion of power to the loads.
It can also limit power from the AC in if your source or breaker can't support the load+charging or whatever combination by either turning down charging or supporting some of the load.

It's called "generator support". Generator support is not active on AC1 on the XW+

Generator support is different than AC power passing through. Generator support should use the inverter/charger to control current pulled from the generator. It can either adjust charge current or inverter current to avoid overloading the generator. This is all from my reading the manual, I don't have a generator connected.

 

[GXMnow]

I'm thinking of hooking the Pro Power 7.2kw inverter in the bed of my F150 Lightning to AC2 and use gen support plus if needed. I'm a little worried from other posts that somehow the XW+ could back feed the Lightning and damage it somehow. I can't wrap my head around how that could happen using AC2. Never been a problem with my 5kw diesel genset. But the Lightning cost significantly more so I'm being ultra cautious.

On the XW-Pro, it is set to never export power on the AC2 input. As long as your solar is all DC coupled, you should have no issue with back feed. But with AC coupling, it can't stop the grid tied type solar inverter(s) from pushing backwards through the unit.

If you are really nervous about it, maybe get an EG4 Chargeverter. I am thinking of getting one for my old Coleman generator. It run on 120 or 240 volt input and can provide up to 100 amps of charge current into a "48 volt" battery system. That way, the output from the inverter in the Lightning will just be charging the battery bank. Yes, you do lose a little efficiency, but it makes the system completely fool proof. In my case, my old generator just can't hold the rpm steady enough so the XW-Pro kept disconnecting from it.

 

[hammick]

On the XW-Pro, it is set to never export power on the AC2 input. As long as your solar is all DC coupled, you should have no issue with back feed. But with AC coupling, it can't stop the grid tied type solar inverter(s) from pushing backwards through the unit.

If you are really nervous about it, maybe get an EG4 Chargeverter. I am thinking of getting one for my old Coleman generator. It run on 120 or 240 volt input and can provide up to 100 amps of charge current into a "48 volt" battery system. That way, the output from the inverter in the Lightning will just be charging the battery bank. Yes, you do lose a little efficiency, but it makes the system completely fool proof. In my case, my old generator just can't hold the rpm steady enough so the XW-Pro kept disconnecting from it.

I'm being overly cautious. The bed inverter in my Lightning has a problem. It goes to 60hz for a split second and then is all over the place. Getting diagnosed on Tuesday and I'm guessing I'll get a new one under warranty. I have an early build 2022 and it was a dealer demo driven by the owner. Maybe he used some crappy extension cords with it or maybe the early builds had bad inverters. My frunk inverter puts out a perfect 60hz.

AC2 has never caused a problem with my 5kw diesel genset. However it an overbuilt MEP-802a military model so hard to kill.

 

[SolarStick]

Hi

I am new to the forum and have been reading through various threads but do not seem to find the problem I am having.

System is wired per attached with the firm ware per attached and the hardware.

1 xwpro
4 pylontech 3000c batteries
1mppt100
Watts Mode
Connect gateway
Generator
Pv Array.

Use system to offset all house consumption with no feed back to grid, leave some energy in batteries to act as backup for AC inverter out load panel critical loads and have generator hooked up as well. Main objective is to maximize daily grid energy consumption cost reduction.
We have time of use rates from 7:00am to 7:00 pm
- using inverter to charger batteries at night 7:00 pm to 7:00 am and solar pv during day
- grid sell block from 7:00 pm to 7:00 am (winter) ie objective to have no battery consumption at night. (Will adjust for summer to ensure no pv energy waisted)

Issue: AC invert out still delivers power to critical load panel even during export sell blocked times frame, draining batteries before peak utility rates kick in. How do I turn off inverter ac out as well during Grid sell block times?

It worked perfectly per attached picture with circuit breaker for inverter out in grid bypass. Ideal scenario reached there: battery discharges in am to soc low enough to absorb any pv energy not used during day, which is then used to cover evening until 7:00 pm, then charger kicks in to start cycle again. But then with inverter out in grid bypass in case of grid power failure the backup obviously does not work.

When invert ac out is is not being bypassed grid sell block does not work for the inverter out. Ie the loads on critical load panel on inverter out start drawing as soon as charge cycle completes while rest of grid support remains off.

How do I turn off inverter ac out as well during grid sell block time frame?

I tried setting power shave on during the power sell block time as well by setting load shave amp high (45 amp). Idea being that system will not do any feed to grid during that time as load shave amps is not reached. That did not work.

Any ideas?

 

[n2aws]

Issue: AC invert out still delivers power to critical load panel even during export sell blocked times frame, draining batteries before peak utility rates kick in. How do I turn off inverter ac out as well during Grid sell block times?

Under grid support for peak load shaving, there is another block there for doing time based loadshaving.

One thing that I think a lot of people misunderstand (probably because they are lumped together under the same section in the config..

grid support and peak load shaving are 2 different things. and each has their own time block.

 

[BentleyJ]

and each has their own time block.

I believe this deserves clarification. As in a "Block of Time". However, The Sell Back and Charge timers are for when you want those functions NOT to happen "blocked" vs. Peak Load Shave timers which Enables the function during that time.

 

[n2aws]

I believe this deserves clarification. As in a "Block of Time". However, The Sell Back and Charge timers are for when you want those functions NOT to happen "blocked" vs. Peak Load Shave timers which Enables the function during that time.

Good call. Gotta love the consistency in their firmware!

 

[SolarStick]

Hi. Yes it is understood that grid sell is a means of blocking of a time frame when not to feed grid and load shave is when grid feed is active to cap maximum grid current draw during specific periods. See pictures attached of my settings on this. I was not using load shave before, only grid sell block, but thought about it and turned it on but in “reverse” ie setting high amp level, to try to turn off the inverter ac out as it is not responding to grid sell block. However with my settings that is not working.

 

[SolarStick]

Thank you for the quick comments by the way. Way faster than Schneider

 

[n2aws]

I was not using load shave before, only grid sell block, but thought about it and turned it on but in “reverse” ie setting high amp level, to try to turn off the inverter ac out as it is not responding to grid sell block. However with my settings that is not working.

Can you clarify what you mean by this statement? When you say "in reverse", I'm not sure what your goal is specifically.

What exactly are you trying to do?

As it is right now, you have load shave enabled (but with a time limitation) BUT you've said it to "shave" loads above 45a. What this mean is, load shaving won't happen at all, until your critical loads are drawing more than 45amps. Then, the inverter will draw from batteries to try and offset/support the loads. IE, if you are drawing 48 amps on the critical loads panel/AC Out, 45a would come from grid, 3a would come from PV and/or batteries.

I set mine to 0a, because I always want my full "critical loads" to be supplied by PV and batteries, not grid.

 

[n2aws]

Can you clarify what you mean by this statement? When you say "in reverse", I'm not sure what your goal is specifically.

What exactly are you trying to do?

As it is right now, you have load shave enabled (but with a time limitation) BUT you've said it to "shave" loads above 45a. What this mean is, load shaving won't happen at all, until your critical loads are drawing more than 45amps. Then, the inverter will draw from batteries to try and offset/support the loads. IE, if you are drawing 48 amps on the critical loads panel/AC Out, 45a would come from grid, 3a would come from PV and/or batteries.

I set mine to 0a, because I always want my full "critical loads" to be supplied by PV and batteries, not grid.

Also, A common issue. If you have time restrictions setup and they aren't working as you expect.. Check the current time and timezone settings on your insight device. It could just be as simple as "the time on insight doesn't match reality". During troubleshooting, I'd actually eliminate "time" as a factor for testing.. and set both start/stop times to 12:00am.

Once you have the actual sell and shave features working as you expect, THEN restrict it by time.

 

[n2aws]

Also, A common issue. If you have time restrictions setup and they aren't working as you expect.. Check the current time and timezone settings on your insight device. It could just be as simple as "the time on insight doesn't match reality". During troubleshooting, I'd actually eliminate "time" as a factor for testing.. and set both start/stop times to 12:00am.

Once you have the actual sell and shave features working as you expect, THEN restrict it by time.

Oddly, we seem to be having 2 forum members at the same time who are trying to configure grid sell/peak load shave with time restrictions at the same time: https://diysolarforum.com/threads/schneider-xw-pro-6k-questions.65769/page-5#post-917279. I just gave them the exact same advice lol

 

[SolarStick]

I believe this deserves clarification. As in a "Block of Time". However, The Sell Back and Charge timers are for when you want those functions NOT to happen "blocked" vs. Peak Load Shave timers which Enables the function during that time.Can you clarify what you mean by this statement? When you say "in reverse", I'm not sure what your goal is specifically.

What exactly are you trying to do?

As it is right now, you have load shave enabled (but with a time limitation) BUT you've said it to "shave" loads above 45a. What this mean is, load shaving won't happen at all, until your critical loads are drawing more than 45amps. Then, the inverter will draw from batteries to try and offset/support the loads. IE, if you are drawing 48 amps on the critical loads panel/AC Out, 45a would come from grid, 3a would come from PV and/or batteries.

I set mine to 0a, because I always want my full "critical loads" to be supplied by PV and batteries, not grid.

Can you clarify what you mean by this statement? When you say "in reverse", I'm not sure what your goal is specifically.

What exactly are you trying to do?

As it is right now, you have load shave enabled (but with a time limitation) BUT you've said it to "shave" loads above 45a. What this mean is, load shaving won't happen at all, until your critical loads are drawing more than 45amps. Then, the inverter will draw from batteries to try and offset/support the loads. IE, if you are drawing 48 amps on the critical loads panel/AC Out, 45a would come from grid, 3a would come from PV and/or batteries.

I set mine to 0a, because I always want my full "critical loads" to be supplied by PV and batteries, not grid.

What I am trying to do is ensure that my AC inverter out does not deliver any power from battery at night during same time that Grid Sell block is active. Grid sell block is not working to block ac inverter out. Grid sell block IS working for feedback to main grid supply but NOT working for inverter AC out.

Using load shave was just an attempt to do that but looking for better ideas (that will actually work )

 

[SolarStick]

Also, A common issue. If you have time restrictions setup and they aren't working as you expect.. Check the current time and timezone settings on your insight device. It could just be as simple as "the time on insight doesn't match reality". During troubleshooting, I'd actually eliminate "time" as a factor for testing.. and set both start/stop times to 12:00am.

Once you have the actual sell and shave features working as you expect, THEN restrict it by time.

Thank you. Yes the sell feature was tested and worked great without time restrictions. Restriction also worked fairly well on grid side. It does not work on AC inverter output.

 

[BentleyJ]

That's because Grid Sell is not linked to the AC OUTPUT. It only controls what is going out to the utility (backwards) from the AC Input.
You are trying to control self consumption, AKA Peak Load Shave in Schneider terms.

 

[n2aws]

Thank you. Yes the sell feature was tested and worked great without time restrictions. Restriction also worked fairly well on grid side. It does not work on AC inverter output.

Ok,

Sounds like "Grid support" is acting as you want. So, we need to focus on peak load shaving.

- If you set the start//stop times to 12:00am, and turn peak load shave on with 0 amps.. does it send power to the AC out/critical loads? (it should)

- If you set the start//stop times to 12:00am, and turn peak load shave on with 25 amps.. does it send power to the AC out? (It shouldn't unless the load is higher than 25amps)

- If the above two work as expected, then it's time to enable the time restrictions. Be aware, the peak load shave timers are backwards to the grid sell timers. IE, with grid sell, it's asking what time you want to "Block" sellback. With peak load shave, it's asking what time you want to ENABLE load shaving. So.. if you want both functions to be disabled at the same time, the load shave times should be exactly opposite the grid sell times. Does that make sense?

 

[ohsolar]

similar issues as mine on the other thread

my setup:
- no solar. I get free power from 8 p.m to 6 a.m. I want to charge batteries from 8 pm to 6 a.m. No battery charging should occur at any other time.
- invert during the day (6 a.m. to 8 p.m)
- NO closed loop communications
- insight home : 1.18, inverter : 2.04 (all on latest firmware)

>- If you set the start//stop times to 12:00am, and turn peak load shave on with 0 amps.. does it send power to the AC out/critical loads? (it should)
nope

From Schneider documentation:
Load Shave only applies when the battery is lower than Grid Support Volts and higher than Recharge Volts +0.5v, or lower than Grid Support SoC and higher than Recharge SoC.

Once I adjusted based on above statement, I was able to do load shaving(inverter state : load shave) but load shaving does not happen The inverter status shows 'load shaving' but the DC output just does not show enough power output (with fans, kettle & vacuum turned on, it only shows -40w). The Dashboard does not show any power flow. I am troubleshooting with Schneider but don't think it is going great

My setting:

 

[n2aws]

Once I adjusted based on above statement, I was able to do load shaving(inverter state : load shave) but load shaving does not happen

Sorry man, once again i need clarification. In one sentence it sounds like you are saying it's working, and that is not working.. I'm honestly trying tu help, but I'm having a really hard time trying to keep everything straight when i have to keep asking for clarification.

Also, you Mention schniedet support. What kind of things are they suggesting? I'm worried we may have a 'too many xooks in the kitchen' kinda thing., where we msg be asking you to tweak conflicting knobs. So if you have support engaged, I'd recommend letting them do what they do, they know this platform way better than i do.

 

[ohsolar]

Sorry man, once again i need clarification. In one sentence it sounds like you are saying it's working, and that is not working.. I'm honestly trying tu help, but I'm having a really hard time trying to keep everything straight when i have to keep asking for clarification.

Also, you Mention schniedet support. What kind of things are they suggesting? I'm worried we may have a 'too many xooks in the kitchen' kinda thing., where we msg be asking you to tweak conflicting knobs. So if you have support engaged, I'd recommend letting them do what they do, they know this platform way better than i do.

Let me try with a pic. Inverter status is 'Load Shaving' but DC power shows only -43w. That does not change even though I am putting 1000w+. I think they are looking at older cases and adjusting some of the numbers. The numbers posted are from them trying stuff but some of the stuff they tried was not working. The working config is what I posted below. The main ones being(some matches your suggestion):
- Check Time/TimeZone
- AC coupling disabled
- Search Mode disabled
- Recharge Voltage - 50 (matches what the doc says)
- Charge block looks correct 6 a.m. to 8 p.m
- Grid support - enabled
- Grid support voltage - 54 (from doc)
- Export power block start/stop : 12 - 12 a.m.
- Grid peak load shave - enabled
- Load shave start/stop -- 12 - 12 a.m (you had suggested this and they did not change)

- So my dashboard(which shows nothing) & inverter status does not change much when inverting(load shave)






let me know if not clear.

 

[hwy17]

@ohsolar sorry if I'm not caught up here but how is your XW even wired? That looks like there is no load on your XW output. -43w is more or less just normal standby power.

Are you sure you have a critical loads panel and yours isn't installed exclusively for AC1 backfeeding?

 

[ohsolar]

@ohsolar sorry if I'm not caught up here but how is your XW even wired? That looks like there is no load on your XW output. -43w is more or less just normal standby power.

Are you sure you have a critical loads panel and yours isn't installed exclusively for AC1 backfeeding?

Hi @hwy17

You know I had wondered that myself. I have attached the page the I used to wire it up. Assuming it is the correct one as it came with the inverter. The diagram on the left.
>Are you sure you have a critical loads panel and yours isn't installed exclusively for AC1 backfeeding?
can you tell me more? The CL is getting the 240v from the inverter and is powering 120v devices without issue. It only powers in AC passthrough though. Not when load shaving

 

[hwy17]

If you wired it up as shown there, with critical loads panel, and that screenshot is with >100w load on the loads panel then I could only suspect you have the breakers in bypass mode. More pictures of the actual unit or wiring would help.

AC1 backfeeding is used either for exporting or with an upstream wattnode for grid shaving upstream, or with a schneider backup control switch for backfed backup. It's not something I have experience with but it does mean there are possible configs that intentionally don't use a critical loads panel at all. It sounds like you do have one.