Schneider XW vs Sol-Ark

[629658]

Definitely not true with mine

Mine either

 

[robby]

Definitely not true with mine

Not true for my 12K either
It was only true during the initial release when they limited the capabilities in the Firmware so that they could gather a larger pool of performance data before unlocking the full potential a couple of months later in a firmware upgrade. They did the same thing with the 15K.

 

[amtun819]

I have a Sol Ark 12K. I would do it again for my particular situation. I think the Schneider is more capable inverter overall, but it has a lot of separate components that need to be configured by someone who knows what they are doing, and as a rank amateur diyer, I was concerned it would be too hard to commission. I know I could have eventually gotten it to work but, it’s definitely oriented toward a trained installer. My Sol Ark handles my 500 ft deep well pump just fine. Never even seen it flicker. I’m totally off grid. I think having a large enough battery bank is important too to handle surges. I literally hooked mine up in two hours and it was the first “real” inverter I’ve ever installed. It’s run perfectly since then.
For someone who wants the best and is a tinkerer/perfectionist, the XW is the way to go. If you want an easy, trouble-free install, I’d suggest the Sol Ark series.

If I was paying an installer, I’d definitely have gotten an xw, however, hehe

can you use Schneider with enphase grid tie system , like ac coupling?

 

[Solar Guppy]

can you use Schneider with enphase grid tie system , like ac coupling?

Yes.

The XW did AC coupling before there was an Enphase product even on the market or any UL standard to defined it. I was doing AC coupling with the Xantrex GT inverters in 2006/7 with the XW-6048, it was crude at the time, but it worked!

 

[C&K]

I do not understand a lot of what is being discussed in this thread. But the original question is what do you have and would you buy it again?

So I can offer that we have two older XW6048 inverters that are 10 years old, along with four MPPT 60 150 charge controllers. This is a totally off-grid system that was commissioned on April 8, 2013 and has been running without a single problem for that length of time without ever being shut down, or experiencing a fault that has shut them down. We regularly run the inverters at full rated load, and sometimes in continuous overload until the AGS starts our peaking generator and reduces the load on them to more reasonable levels. They have been starting well pump and air compressors and whatever we need to run. I even power my Lincoln 200 amp welder with this system (with generator support), when I strike an arc with the welder set at 200A to weld a broken grader lift frame they handle the load and bring in the generator support seamlessly, and we have never even seen our lights flicker.

I believe the newer 6848 is the same thing internally as the 6048, they just changed the face plates to go from the Xantrex to the Conext branding. And upped the continuous rating because the older 6048 was actually derated and will easily put out 6,800 watts in overload without breaking a sweat while maintaining perfect 60Hz and 240V phase to phase. I do not know what the service life of these inverters is, but they seem for us to be extremely reliable. So I would buy the same thing again (except the newer version) to replace them when they finally fail.

While we have no experience with grid-tie systems because our "grid" here is a 25kVA Caterpillar generator hooked to the AC1 inputs on the inverters, and our peaking generator is a 6.5kVA Perkins hooked to the AC2 inputs, are these SolArk inverters being discussed even in that same class?

 

[Lt.Dan]

I believe the newer 6848 is the same thing internally as the 6048, they just changed the face plates to go from the Xantrex to the Conext branding. And upped the continuous rating because the older 6048 was actually derated and will easily put out 6,800 watts in overload without breaking a sweat while maintaining perfect 60Hz and 240V phase to phase.

I can really appreciate a company that under-promises and over-delivers. There should definitely be more companies like this.

are these SolArk inverters being discussed even in that same class?

Not sure what class you are referring to? I think everything you mentioned, the Sol-Ark is capable of.

 

[C&K]

Not sure what class you are referring to? I think everything you mentioned, the Sol-Ark is capable of.

That is what I am asking. Does the Sol-Ark have proper generator support for auto-starting twin generators, used for different purposes in off-grid applications? For instance, our peaking generator is auto-started when the inverters overload and is only used to offset the overload to keep the inverters within their proper output vs operating temperature. It is a load management system and does not have enough power to charge our 1700ah forklift battery. It provides no battery charging with up to 18.5kVA continuous to loads in Generator Support mode.

The other generator is started based on longer term battery load and remaining capacity, and is used to charge the battery (usually in the winter time) when solar does not keep up with long term loads. It is a battery maintenance system that can supply up to 12kVA to loads while charging the battery at 180 amps, or up to 37kVA continous to loads in Generator Support mode.

It manages both generators automatically with fully programmable AGS for starting diesels, something Outback never was able to accomplish since they only ever supported a simple two-wire generator starting system that requires external logic controllers on diesel generators. Trace/Xantrex/Schneider was the only company I knew of that has the fully programmable AGS that can start any type of generator, and manage more than one genset for large off-grid systems. In theory, you can have a two-wire start diesel, but some like our Caterpillar require a one-hour start sequence for pre-heat at 30 below and the Schneider system will use the small one to pre-heat the Cat 3304. I was not sure if the Sol-Ark system does this, or if it is similar to the Outback system with support for only a single two-wire start spark-ignition generator.

 

[Koldsimer]

As C&K said, there is no other inverter with this kind of performance history when you are looking for something dependable. Mine has been in service for nearly 3 years without a glitch or issue. I expect to get at least 20 years out of it as many others have. They have an impressive history- research the Trace/Xantrex/Schneider history for some great info. As with any quality electronic item, you get what you pay for.

I wonder how many growatt or eg4 owners will be able to say the same after 10 years of ownership?

 

[timselectric]

I'll let you know......... hopefully.

 

[OzSolar]

I'm

As C&K said, there is no other inverter with this kind of performance history when you are looking for something dependable. Mine has been in service for nearly 3 years without a glitch or issue. I expect to get at least 20 years out of it as many others have. They have an impressive history- research the Trace/Xantrex/Schneider history for some great info. As with any quality electronic item, you get what you pay for.

I wonder how many growatt or eg4 owners will be able to say the same after 10 years of ownership?

23 years of daily use on two of it's ancestors, the Trace SW4048.

Sol-Ark doesn't have much of a generator set up. No warm up or cool down abilities. It does have a programmable exercise cycle and I believe programmable load amps to start. Really wish it had the cool down period.

Just my 2 cents.... Sol-Ark likely works almost perfectly for >90% of applications whereas the Schneider whereas is probably >95%. There just isn't a product out there will fit all of the possible applications all of the time.

 

[Lt.Dan]

Like @OzSolar said, it does have generator exercise and basic setup, but I do not think it will control 2x generators. I'm not too sure, as I have never looked into generator usage, and dont really have a need for it.

 

[Koldsimer]

I'll let you know......... hopefully.

Knowing that you have the expertise and skill to set everything up properly with no weak links, i'd say you have the best chance to keep 'em going for a long time!

 

[timselectric]

I also have very strong finger crossing skills. lol

 

[C&K]

Like @OzSolar said, it does have generator exercise and basic setup, but I do not think it will control 2x generators. I'm not too sure, as I have never looked into generator usage, and dont really have a need for it.

I'm always interested in newer things and technology. I would be interested in hearing from someone using a Sol-Ark inverter on an off-grid system with a prime-rated turbocharged diesel generator that requires both pre-heat and pre-lube for starting.

 

[DIYrich]

Does the Sol-Ark have proper generator support for auto-starting twin generators, used for different purposes in off-grid applications?

It manages both generators automatically with fully programmable AGS for starting diesels, something Outback never was able to accomplish since they only ever supported a simple two-wire generator starting system that requires external logic controllers on diesel generators.

Sol-Ark is the same as Outback. Either on or off based upon battery level. They do offer "grid peak shaving", which prevents generator overload. You should ask Sol-Ark to enable "Gen Start" when near Overload situation.

 

[C&K]

You should ask Sol-Ark to enable "Gen Start" when near Overload situation.

You mean this is a feature that can be turned on? Or it's a feature that needs to be implemented yet?

This is our most commonly used feature, is generator support. If the load exceeds 48 amps on either leg for more than 15 seconds it will start the peaking generator, allow it to warm up for 15-20 seconds, then load it to whatever you set it for. In our case the breaker on the generator is 28A, so we have the settings in the inverters to load it to 25A, which reduces the load on the inverters to 23 amps. The inverters automatically balance the legs on the generator so it can put out full capacity, even though the load on the AC output of the inverters might not be balanced.

If the load drops below 48 amps on the highest leg for more than 5 minutes, then it shuts the peaking generator down.

To my way of thinking, this is the single most important feature for an off-grid inverter. Without it you are limited to only what the inverters can put out and requires a huge expense in extra battery and inverter capacity, as compared to a fairly cheap peaking generator, for very intermittent high loads on your system. It removes all the hassle with worrying about overloading your off-grid system - just turn on what you want and the system will take care of it, automatically and seamlessly - the lights don't even flicker. All you have to do is properly size your peaking generator for the highest expected overload. We have never found an instance where the inverters can't handle even a 18kVA load for the minute or so required to bring the peaking generator online. In the winter time that little Perkins diesel is kept plugged in and warmed up to operating temperature 24/7 just for that purpose.

This was designed by some brilliant engineers (at Xantrex - Schneider did not invent this, it was there before they bought Xantrex) that truly understand how high-capacity off-grid systems need to work. If the Sol-Ark can't do this, it is not even in the running to replace 6048's. That is why I asked if those Sol-Ark are in the same class as a XW-series for off-grid applications.

 

[SilverbackMP]

You mean this is a feature that can be turned on? Or it's a feature that needs to be implemented yet?

This is our most commonly used feature, is generator support. If the load exceeds 48 amps on either leg for more than 15 seconds it will start the peaking generator, allow it to warm up for 15-20 seconds, then load it to whatever you set it for. In our case the breaker on the generator is 28A, so we have the settings in the inverters to load it to 25A, which reduces the load on the inverters to 23 amps. The inverters automatically balance the legs on the generator so it can put out full capacity, even though the load on the AC output of the inverters might not be balanced.

If the load drops below 48 amps on the highest leg for more than 5 minutes, then it shuts the peaking generator down.

To my way of thinking, this is the single most important feature for an off-grid inverter. Without it you are limited to only what the inverters can put out and requires a huge expense in extra battery and inverter capacity, as compared to a fairly cheap peaking generator, for very intermittent high loads on your system. It removes all the hassle with worrying about overloading your off-grid system - just turn on what you want and the system will take care of it, automatically and seamlessly - the lights don't even flicker. All you have to do is properly size your peaking generator for the highest expected overload. We have never found an instance where the inverters can't handle even a 18kVA load for the minute or so required to bring the peaking generator online. In the winter time that little Perkins diesel is kept plugged in and warmed up to operating temperature 24/7 just for that purpose.

This was designed by some brilliant engineers (at Xantrex - Schneider did not invent this, it was there before they bought Xantrex) that truly understand how high-capacity off-grid systems need to work. If the Sol-Ark can't do this, it is not even in the running to replace 6048's. That is why I asked if those Sol-Ark are in the same class as a XW-series for off-grid applications.

I wonder if SMA can do this? Off to dig through the manuals.

 

[Koldsimer]

I wonder if SMA can do this? Off to dig through the manuals.

@Hedges will know...

 

[Hedges]

Sunny Island can take input of say 15A from a generator (or grid) and add amps from battery/inverter to support additional local consumption

It can call for generator start when battery SoC gets low (plus time of day/night modifications to the SoC which triggers it.)

Start generator above some current draw? I'll have to check manual.

"14.1 Generator
The Sunny Island can start or stop a generator depending on consumer power or battery state of
charge. In this case, diverse limits and times are taken into consideration
(see section 14.1.5 ”Automatic Generator Operation” (page 122))."

"Load‑Dependent Start
In case increased energy demands arise, the generator can be requested for support. This function
can be switched on or off (default) using the "235.09 GnPwrEna" parameter. The function is only
effective if the "235.01 GnAutoEna" parameter is simultaneously set to On.
The load limit for the request and the generator stop is configured using the "235.10 GnPwrStr" and
"235.11 GnPwrStp" parameters. The average time by which an average value for the consumer
power is calculated can be set using "235.12 GnPwrAvgTm". This prevents temporary power
consumption peaks of a few seconds from causing a power‑dependent generator start.
If the generator has been started due to the load, it runs according to the minimum generator run time.
If, once this time has expired, the average power is below the cutoff limit, the generator is stopped
again."

"10 GnPwrStr Generator request switch‑on power limit [default] 4 kW "

 

[SilverbackMP]

Sunny Island can take input of say 15A from a generator (or grid) and add amps from battery/inverter to support additional local consumption

It can call for generator start when battery SoC gets low (plus time of day/not modifications to the SoC which triggers it.)

Start generator above some current draw? I'll have to check manual.

"14.1 Generator
The Sunny Island can start or stop a generator depending on consumer power or battery state of
charge. In this case, diverse limits and times are taken into consideration
(see section 14.1.5 ”Automatic Generator Operation” (page 122))."

"Load‑Dependent Start
In case increased energy demands arise, the generator can be requested for support. This function
can be switched on or off (default) using the "235.09 GnPwrEna" parameter. The function is only
effective if the "235.01 GnAutoEna" parameter is simultaneously set to On.
The load limit for the request and the generator stop is configured using the "235.10 GnPwrStr" and
"235.11 GnPwrStp" parameters. The average time by which an average value for the consumer
power is calculated can be set using "235.12 GnPwrAvgTm". This prevents temporary power
consumption peaks of a few seconds from causing a power‑dependent generator start.
If the generator has been started due to the load, it runs according to the minimum generator run time.
If, once this time has expired, the average power is below the cutoff limit, the generator is stopped
again."

"10 GnPwrStr Generator request switch‑on power limit [default] 4 kW "

SMA really should hire you lol.