Sol-Ark 15K All in One Inverter Released.
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I pre-ordered mine within the first few hours after preorders opened. It doesn't seem like many have shipped yet.
RayofSunshine
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As promised (see post #233), here is a copy of an email that I sent to a contact I have made from a company in the solar industry that volunteered to use his connection with staff inside Sol-Ark to address concerns and confusions I had with two presentations that Tom Brennan gave regarding the new 15 K inverter, Smart Loads 14 electrical panel, and micro-inverters. What follows is the text of that email. Attachments have also been provided. I invite you to view the various webinars that I reference and provide your own feedback (both to the webinars and to my analysis). My only motivation here is to obtain a greater understanding of the subject matter. There is no intent to cast aspersions, shade, or any other negative force upon any individual or company. I fully realize that it is entirely possible that any confusion or apparent contradictions that I raise may be due to my lack of knowledge of the subject matter or misinterpretation of the claims/facts provided in the webinars.
I tried to post, but it is too long. Here is part 1:
The text of the email:
"I went back and viewed that webinar I referenced in our discussion about the new Sol–Ark 15K that Tom Brennan gave (at the Alt–E Online Solar Conference on January 24, 2022). Here is a link to the webinar on YouTube. At about 31:16 into the video, he starts talking about the average cost per watt of the 12K and 15K, and how to improve it. In all of the examples that he uses, he leaves out the cost of the solar panels. I thought that was strange, but then I said, “OK, he just wants to concentrate on the portion of the cost that Sol-Ark can affect.”. At about 34:15 he starts talking about how users want whole house backup, the difficulty with doing that, and at 35:00 he states that "if we add 2 or 3 or $4000 to what we’re doing here, we can add micros to the equation and what we'll do is we can AC couple the panels to the ESS system and we can double the output during the daytime. And that way, during the daytime, when the grid’s down, you can run everything". My first reaction was "Whaaaat”? How are you going to double the output by adding just the micro-inverters (without adding the additional solar panels)? He then starts describing the new Sol–Ark micro-inverters. At 36:55, he says that he will cover it more tomorrow (in another webinar about the micro-inverters that I reference below). Then at 38:39 he starts going over the attached view graph “Attachment 1” (I added back – in red - a couple of column headers that they forgot). And all of a sudden the example has gone from 12 panels x 440 W to 28 panels x 500 W (which is pretty rare for a residential rooftop panel, but takes full advantage of the limits of their new micro-inverters), and it is clear why he never included the cost of the solar panels, because now he can claim an almost doubling of the output of the system for "only $4000" (the cost of the micro-inverters: actually $4298). I thought he might be adding in the output of the battery ESS, but he's taking the full 15,000 W output of the inverter in the daytime column, not the 12,000 W limit of the ESS. He also adds another 12,000 W (evidently of "effective") capacity from the Smart Loads 14 panel (without indicating how that number is computed), to get a claimed total effective output of 41,000 W for the system. At around 43:00 someone poses a question asking if his example of adding micros means that he's adding 2x the amount of solar (the questioner meant the total cost of solar (panels + micros) like I said earlier). Tom answers, "No it does not. You don't have to DC couple the panels. You can AC couple the panels instead of DC coupling them. It includes rapid shutdown. I'll talk about it tomorrow (in his talk on Sol-Ark's micros). So you don't have to add twice the amount of solar; you can leave the same amount of solar." What???
So, his talk the next day about the micros is here. At 42:00 in (a screenshot is attached as “Attachment 2”), he has a modified (from the above) example comparison (using the bigger 500W solar panels and more of them) and again says that switching the (now 40 x 500W) panels from DC to AC coupling with their new micros (which he said they recommend coupling through the gen input so you get the 5ms UPS switchover time capability - which you don't get by coming through the main distribution panel to the load side input), that you add 20kW of power to the system (from 15kW to 35kW). Again, huh? How? He once again gives no explanation of this doubling. He also again claims an additional 12,000 W (again, evidently of "effective") capacity from the Smart Loads 14 panel (without indicating how that number is computed), to get a claimed total effective output of 47,000 W for the 15K system. Now, one can see how the Smart Loads 14 could “add” a certain “effective” amount based on various loads (dryer, water heater, oven, iron, etc.) that can be “time shifted”, but he should state those assumptions and formula for coming up with the additional 12 kW. The real apparent sorcery is in doubling the (12K or 15K) inverter output “just by adding micros” (implying no additional solar panels)...."
End of part 1
I tried to post, but it is too long. Here is part 1:
The text of the email:
"I went back and viewed that webinar I referenced in our discussion about the new Sol–Ark 15K that Tom Brennan gave (at the Alt–E Online Solar Conference on January 24, 2022). Here is a link to the webinar on YouTube. At about 31:16 into the video, he starts talking about the average cost per watt of the 12K and 15K, and how to improve it. In all of the examples that he uses, he leaves out the cost of the solar panels. I thought that was strange, but then I said, “OK, he just wants to concentrate on the portion of the cost that Sol-Ark can affect.”. At about 34:15 he starts talking about how users want whole house backup, the difficulty with doing that, and at 35:00 he states that "if we add 2 or 3 or $4000 to what we’re doing here, we can add micros to the equation and what we'll do is we can AC couple the panels to the ESS system and we can double the output during the daytime. And that way, during the daytime, when the grid’s down, you can run everything". My first reaction was "Whaaaat”? How are you going to double the output by adding just the micro-inverters (without adding the additional solar panels)? He then starts describing the new Sol–Ark micro-inverters. At 36:55, he says that he will cover it more tomorrow (in another webinar about the micro-inverters that I reference below). Then at 38:39 he starts going over the attached view graph “Attachment 1” (I added back – in red - a couple of column headers that they forgot). And all of a sudden the example has gone from 12 panels x 440 W to 28 panels x 500 W (which is pretty rare for a residential rooftop panel, but takes full advantage of the limits of their new micro-inverters), and it is clear why he never included the cost of the solar panels, because now he can claim an almost doubling of the output of the system for "only $4000" (the cost of the micro-inverters: actually $4298). I thought he might be adding in the output of the battery ESS, but he's taking the full 15,000 W output of the inverter in the daytime column, not the 12,000 W limit of the ESS. He also adds another 12,000 W (evidently of "effective") capacity from the Smart Loads 14 panel (without indicating how that number is computed), to get a claimed total effective output of 41,000 W for the system. At around 43:00 someone poses a question asking if his example of adding micros means that he's adding 2x the amount of solar (the questioner meant the total cost of solar (panels + micros) like I said earlier). Tom answers, "No it does not. You don't have to DC couple the panels. You can AC couple the panels instead of DC coupling them. It includes rapid shutdown. I'll talk about it tomorrow (in his talk on Sol-Ark's micros). So you don't have to add twice the amount of solar; you can leave the same amount of solar." What???
So, his talk the next day about the micros is here. At 42:00 in (a screenshot is attached as “Attachment 2”), he has a modified (from the above) example comparison (using the bigger 500W solar panels and more of them) and again says that switching the (now 40 x 500W) panels from DC to AC coupling with their new micros (which he said they recommend coupling through the gen input so you get the 5ms UPS switchover time capability - which you don't get by coming through the main distribution panel to the load side input), that you add 20kW of power to the system (from 15kW to 35kW). Again, huh? How? He once again gives no explanation of this doubling. He also again claims an additional 12,000 W (again, evidently of "effective") capacity from the Smart Loads 14 panel (without indicating how that number is computed), to get a claimed total effective output of 47,000 W for the 15K system. Now, one can see how the Smart Loads 14 could “add” a certain “effective” amount based on various loads (dryer, water heater, oven, iron, etc.) that can be “time shifted”, but he should state those assumptions and formula for coming up with the additional 12 kW. The real apparent sorcery is in doubling the (12K or 15K) inverter output “just by adding micros” (implying no additional solar panels)...."
End of part 1
Attachments
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RayofSunshine
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Now part 2:
"
Now, I’m no EE, but I know that inverters (micro- or otherwise) cannot create power (wattage). It can only invert it (from DC to AC or vice versa). The only actual available sources of power for a Sol-Ark inverter are the solar panels, the grid, the batteries, or a generator. Actually there is another possible source: the output of an external inverter (with accompanying solar panels) that is AC coupled as an input to the Sol-Ark. But we’re talking about adding micros here, so the external inverter output, grid, and generator are eliminated immediately. And we’ve already said it can’t be the max 12kW (in the example of the Sol-Ark 15K) from the batteries because he’s claiming an additional 20kW (which matches the 40 x 500W solar panels). So, even if Tom is trying to show that you can get more than 15kW of solar panel wattage out of the 15K inverter by AC coupling solar panels with micros, then - if we add the (cost of the) micros only - we’re getting only a 5kW addition in output: not 20kW. If you want to get an additional 20kW, you have to include the cost of an additional 15kW of solar panels (so you have 15 kW DC coupled to the MPPT input, and 20 kW AC coupled to the gen input).
Continuing on in the same webinar, at 43:20, he has a viewgraph of a comparison of Sol-Ark with Enphase (a screenshot is attached as “Attachment 3”). In the middle of it (at 44:44, comparing the Sol-Ark 12K to Enphase) he seems to realize his mistake (because there is no doubling of wattage with micros) and stumbles a bit before trying to recover by saying you get the additional wattage during the day from the batteries – as well as getting the same power at night. But if you consume the batteries during the day, you won’t have them available (at least for very long) at night. Then, at 46:10, comparing the Sol-Ark 15K to Enphase x 3, he does a similar pause, now claiming that the AC coupling gives a total of 32kW during the day (20kW solar + 12kW battery) and 12kW at night as well. So it seems he was having some doubts about his "doubling" math. But there’s one additional curve to throw at this analysis. I made a suggestion to a member of the DIY Solar Forum to use the capability of the Sol-Ark (12K as well as) 15K to take one set of panels he has (with micros attached) on one roof and AC couple them to the gen input of the Sol-Ark 15K, and take his other set of panels he has (without micros) on another roof and DC couple them into the MPPT inputs. His reply was as follows: “I spoke with solark (sic) about using ac coupled on the gen input and was told it is a no go. There is a setting in the battery menu to indicate if you are using ac coupled on the load side, or grid side. I was told the gen input will not flow out to the grid, so it has a problem with the sync. The inverter will sync the dc PV input to the grid, or it will sync to the gen input if a generator is running and disconnected from the grid. It will not do both at the same time. You can use ac coupled on the gen input if you are off grid, but not grid tied”. Now I know this statement to be false because I watched all 3 of Sol-Ark University’s webinars for installers (available on their website here), and they state multiple times in all three webinars that you can simultaneously AC couple and DC couple solar panels (see screenshots from the attachments “Sol-Ark 101 screenshot”, “Sol-Ark 201 screenshot”, and “Sol-Ark 301 screenshot”). Not only that, but in the third webinar they state that the maximum combined input from solar panels from both AC and DC inputs for the 12 K inverter is 16kW (in the “Sol-Ark 301 screenshot” attachment). This latter apparent confusion could be explained if a firmware update for the 12K inverter increased the combined input to allow 18 kW (that Tom claimed in his example of doubling output for the 12K inverter). Oh yeah, one more thing: in one of those installer webinars, they state that the output of AC coupled panels always flow out to the load or the grid (directly contradicting information that the above quoted DIY Solar Forum member said that he got from his contact at Sol-Ark). In other words, you can’t use their output to charge a battery ESS.
Now, as I said in during our Zoom meeting, I am not claiming that Tom or Sol-Ark is making an intentional attempt to mislead anyone, but there sure seems to be 1) a number of claims during Tom’s webinars that he doesn’t back up with either examples or explanation (and seems to make no sense), and 2) apparent contradiction from different Sol-Ark sources, all leading to a lot of confusion. I would be very interested in any explanation your contact in Sol-Ark could provide. Many thanks for volunteering to address these issues with Sol-Ark."
"
Now, I’m no EE, but I know that inverters (micro- or otherwise) cannot create power (wattage). It can only invert it (from DC to AC or vice versa). The only actual available sources of power for a Sol-Ark inverter are the solar panels, the grid, the batteries, or a generator. Actually there is another possible source: the output of an external inverter (with accompanying solar panels) that is AC coupled as an input to the Sol-Ark. But we’re talking about adding micros here, so the external inverter output, grid, and generator are eliminated immediately. And we’ve already said it can’t be the max 12kW (in the example of the Sol-Ark 15K) from the batteries because he’s claiming an additional 20kW (which matches the 40 x 500W solar panels). So, even if Tom is trying to show that you can get more than 15kW of solar panel wattage out of the 15K inverter by AC coupling solar panels with micros, then - if we add the (cost of the) micros only - we’re getting only a 5kW addition in output: not 20kW. If you want to get an additional 20kW, you have to include the cost of an additional 15kW of solar panels (so you have 15 kW DC coupled to the MPPT input, and 20 kW AC coupled to the gen input).
Continuing on in the same webinar, at 43:20, he has a viewgraph of a comparison of Sol-Ark with Enphase (a screenshot is attached as “Attachment 3”). In the middle of it (at 44:44, comparing the Sol-Ark 12K to Enphase) he seems to realize his mistake (because there is no doubling of wattage with micros) and stumbles a bit before trying to recover by saying you get the additional wattage during the day from the batteries – as well as getting the same power at night. But if you consume the batteries during the day, you won’t have them available (at least for very long) at night. Then, at 46:10, comparing the Sol-Ark 15K to Enphase x 3, he does a similar pause, now claiming that the AC coupling gives a total of 32kW during the day (20kW solar + 12kW battery) and 12kW at night as well. So it seems he was having some doubts about his "doubling" math. But there’s one additional curve to throw at this analysis. I made a suggestion to a member of the DIY Solar Forum to use the capability of the Sol-Ark (12K as well as) 15K to take one set of panels he has (with micros attached) on one roof and AC couple them to the gen input of the Sol-Ark 15K, and take his other set of panels he has (without micros) on another roof and DC couple them into the MPPT inputs. His reply was as follows: “I spoke with solark (sic) about using ac coupled on the gen input and was told it is a no go. There is a setting in the battery menu to indicate if you are using ac coupled on the load side, or grid side. I was told the gen input will not flow out to the grid, so it has a problem with the sync. The inverter will sync the dc PV input to the grid, or it will sync to the gen input if a generator is running and disconnected from the grid. It will not do both at the same time. You can use ac coupled on the gen input if you are off grid, but not grid tied”. Now I know this statement to be false because I watched all 3 of Sol-Ark University’s webinars for installers (available on their website here), and they state multiple times in all three webinars that you can simultaneously AC couple and DC couple solar panels (see screenshots from the attachments “Sol-Ark 101 screenshot”, “Sol-Ark 201 screenshot”, and “Sol-Ark 301 screenshot”). Not only that, but in the third webinar they state that the maximum combined input from solar panels from both AC and DC inputs for the 12 K inverter is 16kW (in the “Sol-Ark 301 screenshot” attachment). This latter apparent confusion could be explained if a firmware update for the 12K inverter increased the combined input to allow 18 kW (that Tom claimed in his example of doubling output for the 12K inverter). Oh yeah, one more thing: in one of those installer webinars, they state that the output of AC coupled panels always flow out to the load or the grid (directly contradicting information that the above quoted DIY Solar Forum member said that he got from his contact at Sol-Ark). In other words, you can’t use their output to charge a battery ESS.
Now, as I said in during our Zoom meeting, I am not claiming that Tom or Sol-Ark is making an intentional attempt to mislead anyone, but there sure seems to be 1) a number of claims during Tom’s webinars that he doesn’t back up with either examples or explanation (and seems to make no sense), and 2) apparent contradiction from different Sol-Ark sources, all leading to a lot of confusion. I would be very interested in any explanation your contact in Sol-Ark could provide. Many thanks for volunteering to address these issues with Sol-Ark."
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RayofSunshine
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Did you watch the two webinars given by Tom Brennan (at the Alt-E conference) that I referenced? (This is an honest question, and is NOT meant to be snarky or disrespectful in any way.)
robby
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Remember that the end customer is never going to have the first option of buying. Most manufactures make sure that their Loyal Dealers get a portion of units first. If not they are not going to be loyal dealers for long.
I would Imagine the Engineer775, EcoDirect and several other places got some form of notification before the public.
robby
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Don't take this the wrong way, but I think that the letter is was too long for Tom Brennan to sit down and read. The guy is doing a hundred different things everyday. May I suggest you call Sol-Ark and ask for a guy named Devon. He is on the Forum but he changed his user name and I don't remember what it is. Devon is one of the original engineers and really knows his stuff. I am sure he will explain it or let you know if Tom misspoke.
RayofSunshine
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No offense taken, but remember, this was not a letter to Tom. I specifically stated that it was an email to a contact of mine in a company in the solar industry, and that contact in turn has a technical contact (maybe more than one) inside Sol-Ark (because they are working with Sol-Ark on their product(s)). We were talking about the new 15K, SmartLoads 14, and micros. I told my contact about the apparently confusing claims made in these presentations. He volunteered to use his technical contact(s) within Sol-Ark to address my concerns if I would type them up and send them to him. I never expected anyone to plunk the email in front of Tom Brennan and say, "Hey, can you set this guy straight?". I figured the technical contact in Sol-Ark would figure it out and get back to my contact. I copied the email to this thread for two reasons:
1) Back in posts #229, #231, and #233 in this thread, I had an exchange with @Canxane where I referenced the first of Tom's two webinars to back up my reason for suggesting simultaneous DC & AC coupling on the 15K (which - it turns out - is apparently contradicted by the feedback from Sol-Ark that @Canxane describes in post #231). As an afterthought, I mentioned that there were other issues I had with the presentation, that I was documenting them (for the above referenced email), and that I would post that email to this thread when it was completed and sent (in case anyone else here might find it useful). I try to stay good to my word, so I posted it.
2) Besides wanting to provide a service to the forum (by supplying references to webinars on the subject of this thread, as well as some concerns about said webinars), I wanted to get feedback from forum members on the webinars, other referenced info from Sol-Ark, and my analysis of the apparent contradictions. If one or more forum members gave feedback to the effect, "Hey dude you got it all wrong/misinterpreted things/etc. Here's how: ...", I would digest that feedback. If I agreed, I would email my contact and say, "Never mind. I take it back". If I disagreed or needed more detail, I would engage said forum members until we hashed out any differences in understanding.
Thanks for the pointer to Devon. I'll wait to see what kind of response I get from my (long-winded) email. If I feel I need more/better feedback, I'll contact him.
I did, a couple of times. It is all clear as mud to me. I guess it could be a more generic questions about inverters coupled with micro inverter, not specifically Sol-Arks.
RayofSunshine
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OK. Just wanted to get your impressions. That is exactly why I 1) accepted the offer of the contact I referenced to use his contact(s) in Sol-Ark to address my concerns/confusions, and 2) posted the same concerns/confusions to this thread. While I wish confusion on no one, it is somewhat reassuring that I am not alone.
Well, the spec sheet for the 15K has both a heading of "Solar Input Power" and "Max Allowed PV Power" of "17000W". For the 12K, the spec sheet has a heading of "Solar Input Power 12000W" and "Max Allowed PV Power" of "6500W + 6500W = 13000W". I believe all those are for DC coupled panel input. Now, given the numbers given for the Sol-Ark 12K in the attachment "Sol-Ark 301 screenshot.png" in post #245, your guess for the amount of AC coupled (via micros or another string inverter) PV panel input to the gen, load, or grid connections is as good as mine (same for the combined input of DC & AC coupled), but the referenced webinars by Tom Brennan seem to state that the AC coupled input limit is at least 20 kW.
Some further research on the subject lead me to this article on the more generic issue by the CTO of Humless.
robby
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I got a feeling that this is correct. The fact that Sol-Ark is now pushing it's own MicroInverters leads me to believe that they intend them to compliment the 15K in having a much higher capacity. I do not think they are doing it to compete directly with Enphase. I suspect they will have some sort of more in-depth communication with the Inverter that goes past just frequency shifting. I am interested to hear the info you get.
RayofSunshine
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Yeah, I suspected that the pure number (20 kW) was probably accurate. It's the "doubling the output just by adding micros" claim that was the biggest puzzler no matter what what angle/view I took.
If I get anything through my (indirect) contact, I will post it here. If not, I will contact Devon to try to get info from him.
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FunnyLogic
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15k video review by Engineer775:
As much as this inverter would totally send my ROI into the "never paying for itself" zone and being WAY more inverter than I need today (by a lot), I'm seriously considering going this route and just being done with waiting for all the other options either coming to, or on the market, to work the bugs out, worrying about CS, TS, parts access, warranties, huge idle consumption etc. It's a BIG pill for me to $wallow, but at least it would resolve all the potential headaches and it would allow for a lot of future growth as I add an EV or two in the coming years. It's very tempting!
Anyone have a feel for when the 15k will actually be truly accessible to the folks that aren't already on a waiting list?
Anyone have a feel for when the 15k will actually be truly accessible to the folks that aren't already on a waiting list?
Xhumeka
Off-Grid'er
Wow, thanks to Engineer775's vid I realize how noisy the 15k can get! Mounting outdoors is starting to "sound" better 
90W
