Sol-Ark no longer supporting gen shave

[Cmiller]

Just a heads up to anyone who may have questions and/or issues with the gen input and gen shave function!

According to Sol-Ark tech support, the gen shave function is no longer supported. I am quite confused as to why they would drop that! (Especially since it is still in the menu!) It is a very important part of using the gen terminals for gen charging!

The idea is that you set gen shave to whatever wattage that your generator can comfortably handle, then the inverter adjusts the charge rate in realtime as your passthrough loads go up or down, to maximize gen usage during gen run times, while avoiding overloading and/or low voltage or frequency because of the generator being close to overload.

I'm sure someone will say "adjust the 'gen start A' setting". But that does not compensate for fluctuating loads, and frankly, doesn't work well! I have seen this time and time again with many other brands of inverter! For instance, I have seen many Magnum inverters that had "shore" or "input amps" (depending on advanced remote or not) set to the full 30A with that max charge rate set to lower than 100% to compensate for a small generator. But the instant you have bigger loads kick in, the generator will either overload, or the voltage will drop and the inverter will disconnect. Then it will reconnect.... disconnect.... reconnect..... you get the point.

A breaker size setting or input amps (or watts) setting is always far superior. And really without that it is a disaster!

Note* in an off-grid scenario, you can still use the grid terminals and set grid peak shave to limit that generator draw! The issue is when you either have grid and want a backup gen charge option, or when off grid with a hardwired gen on grid input, and you want a portable charge option on gen terminals.

Note #2* Don't bother mentioning that you can use a standalone charger. I am aware of this. In fact the Eg4 Chargeverter is my go-to option for that. However, the fact that the Sol-Ark inverters physically have the capability to use a generator on the gen input terminals, but the software is simply not programmed to handle it correctly, is what makes no sense to me.

Also, the point of this thread is to make others aware, and perhaps shed some light on any issues that others may have with the gen input and the gen shave menu item.

Here is a screenshot of my conversation with Sol-Ark tech support where I was made aware of this:

 

[DIYrich]

That's interesting. So Peak Shaving is not supported through the Gen Port, but it is supported through the Grid port.

 

[SignatureSolarJames]

Chargeverter

 

[Brucey]

That's interesting. So Peak Shaving is not supported through the Gen Port, but it is supported through the Grid port.

So this was changed with a firmware update? Can you roll back to an older firmware on solark/deye? Do deye branded models still support peak shaving on gen input?

 

[Cmiller]

That's interesting. So Peak Shaving is not supported through the Gen Port, but it is supported through the Grid port.

That is correct per my discussion with Sol-Ark tech support. Interestingly enough, the menu item is still there... Physically on the GUI of the inverters you don't have a check box to enable or disable, but you still have a watts setting. Remotely in PV Pro you still have an enable button as well as the watts setting.

So this was changed with a firmware update? Can you roll back to an older firmware on solark/deye? Do deye branded models still support peak shaving on gen input?

That is what it sounds like. I don't know if rilling back firmware is a possiblity. I am doubting that it is possible on Sol-Ark units though, as I know they had some issues at one point with new firmware because of the number in the firmware name not being higher than the previous version and that caused it to not upload to the unit. This makes me think that a rollback would probably not work.

Now to be clear, I have not yet actually tested this out since they told me this, although I did have 2 different service calls that were related to gen shave not functioning properly and we ended up just moving to grid terminals because these 2 jobs were off grid. So I am now thinking those issues were from the (apparently) lack of having the function work anymore.

 

[Cmiller]

Chargeverter

Yes, that works. In fact the Chargeverter is a quite impressive product, too your credit!

However, I feel that a customer shouldn't have to buy an additional item for lack of a feature not working on a "premium product".

 

[SignatureSolarJames]

Yes, that works. In fact the Chargeverter is a quite impressive product, too your credit!

However, I feel that a customer shouldn't have to buy an additional item for lack of a feature not working on a "premium product".

What if I told you the 18kpv was about to get gen boost as a free firmware update...

 

[mvonw]

Yes, that works. In fact the Chargeverter is a quite impressive product, too your credit!

However, I feel that a customer shouldn't have to buy an additional item for lack of a feature not working on a "premium product".

I sort of like the idea of separate DC/Gen charger from the AIO, at least in my use case where its a backup if the AIO fails. I see that as an advantage.

I bought a chargeverter, but it stopped working, so nothing is foolproof.

 

[Lt.Dan]

What if I told you the 18kpv was about to get gen boost as a free firmware update...

Well that doesn't help him without spending even more money.

Towing the line on trying to sell a product here...

 

[mvonw]

Well that doesn't help him without spending even more money.

Towing the line on trying to sell a product here...

This site sure does seem to be an SS marketing platform

 

[Cmiller]

What if I told you the 18kpv was about to get gen boost as a free firmware update...

That sounds great! But I'll be totally honest, there are still a few things that hold me back from jumping to the 18kpv.

• I'm not a a big fan of the battery terminals. We use welding cable, and I would be a little concerned about the tiny individual wires kind of going everywhere and not getting a good solid connection. This is not a make-or-break! More personal preference probably... I imagine it could be overcome by using ferrules crimped on, or something like that, if it would be an issue.
• Not being able to do parallel solar strings on mppt 2 and 3! While this may seem insignificant, the fact that my guys would need to always remember to only double up on mppt 1 would actually be a bummer. We are using mostly 450w panels, and it is super nice to be able to double up on all 3 inputs! For instance, it works great to go with 3 sets of 12 panels pr input on the 15K with those 12 stringed 2P6S. On the 18kpv, we would need to do something like 16/10/10. This means you end up not only having one set doubled up but not the others. But also having 2 completely different string lengths. More complicated means more time on the roof, which means more man hours pr job! I know it's a small detail, but small details add up!
• Having a proper auto gen start menu! Having a proper auto gen start menu! Having a proper auto gen start menu!........... For some reason, so far, no AIO inverter out there has a proper auto start menu! I'm talking start AND stop parameters that can be set for voltage and/or %, and maybe even other start/stop parameters as well! I'm talking multiple different start/stop parameters functioning at the same time! If your curious what you should have in an auto start menu, just take a look at the menu for a Schneider, Magnum, or Victron auto start setup! This is actually a big deal when it comes to off-grid! And for that matter, even when you have a backup gen for extended grid outages! (I do realize that your auto start options are better than Sol-Ark's are!)

I did look at your unit! Side-by-side with the 15K Sol-Ark it is pretty close to being apples-to-apples. But those few sticklers made it not worth switching over and getting used to a whole new brand.

Being able to limit gen draw or have a gen shave type of option for gen input would definitely give you a leg up though, as far as getting my attention in terms of maybe switching over!

I honestly think at this point the Eg4 18kpv and the Sol-Ark 15K are the very top, and cream of the crop of the AIOs. But I do feel there are some things lacking. And I say this coming from having installed MANY off-grid systems over the last 10+ years, using Schneider, Magnum, Outback, Victron, etc. AIOs knock the socks off an individual components type of system, when you look at price point, neatness of the install, and even solar capabilities and being friendly to start small with PV and batteries and then add later. However, those "older" types of setups, with the brands that I mentioned, absolutely make the AIOs look horrendous when you look through the menus!

I do realize that all brands have their own quirks and/or issues. But figured I would note the specifics that have held me back from the 18kpv, since you brought it up. Any company that is willing to listen to customers and/or potential customers and improve accordingly, has great potential down the road! On the flip side, when a company is told (by their customers) about their issues and they simply shrug it off and walk away, there is potential for a disaster down the road.

 

[Cmiller]

I sort of like the idea of separate DC/Gen charger from the AIO, at least in my use case where its a backup if the AIO fails. I see that as an advantage.

I bought a chargeverter, but it stopped working, so nothing is foolproof.

One thing in regards to this though. If the AIO fails, you won't have power even if you can charge your batteries. (I guess unless only the mppts aren't working.) I do like the Chargeverters, and sometimes, if the gen puts out dirty power, the Chargeverter is really the better option! However, I still really like how clean an install you end up with, if you can use the AIO both for your normal charging AND your backup charging! That eliminates an additional device that can fail!

Now I know people will say that in an AIO, if one things fails, the whole works will generally be down. This is definitely true. But that is also why there should always be some bypass/transfer switch option in case the inverter fails. That goes for any system. AIO or not! Any system with a failed inverter will be in limp mode until the unit gets fixed or replaced! AIO, 120/240V, 120V only with multiple units to create 120/240V, 120V only with autotransformer, straight up 120V only.... the list goes on. LOL. At the end of the day, you should always have a backup option, where you flip breakers with interlocks, or you flip a transfer switch, and your back in power either from grid, or from a generator!

 

[mvonw]

One thing in regards to this though. If the AIO fails, you won't have power even if you can charge your batteries. (I guess unless only the mppts aren't working.) I do like the Chargeverters, and sometimes, if the gen puts out dirty power, the Chargeverter is really the better option! However, I still really like how clean an install you end up with, if you can use the AIO both for your normal charging AND your backup charging! That eliminates an additional device that can fail!

Now I know people will say that in an AIO, if one things fails, the whole works will generally be down. This is definitely true. But that is also why there should always be some bypass/transfer switch option in case the inverter fails. That goes for any system. AIO or not! Any system with a failed inverter will be in limp mode until the unit gets fixed or replaced! AIO, 120/240V, 120V only with multiple units to create 120/240V, 120V only with autotransformer, straight up 120V only.... the list goes on. LOL. At the end of the day, you should always have a backup option, where you flip breakers with interlocks, or you flip a transfer switch, and your back in power either from grid, or from a generator!

I have a backup AIO, and a plain single function inverter as backup. In three years, my Solark has never even blipped, so I may sell my extra SolArk if it looks like they will come out with a new wave of products taht offer something more. The one thing I do like about SolArk is that they aren't coming out with superseding products every year, giving me some confidence they have trained support staff to help if I do have a problem. It's really hard for companies to have well trained, personable support staff for a large product catalog.

 

[Tulex]

This is quite the bummer, as I've had my 15K running since may, was hoping to add my Generac 10K that was previously attached to the house this summer. Guess it's time to learn about chargeverters.

 

[RCinFLA]

The issue with HF hybrid inverters is all power flows through the HV DC bus, with exception of AC input to AC output pass-through.

Problems comes into play during battery charging when an AC load shaving assist by inverter is required. The battery to HV DC converter must switch modes from charging batteries to sourcing power from batteries to supply the HV DC bus. This takes a little time to make the switchover in power flow direction. The large HV DC capacitor bank is supposed to absorb or source any power perturbations during the mode switchover, but it is limited on the total load it can support during the switchover time.

The problem SolArk is likely having is stability of the battery to HV DC converter causing potential damage to the unit under certain loading conditions.

This issue also effects excess PV power back surge power when external AC coupling of PV GT inverters is involved. SolArk recommends using Gen input reconfiguration for PV GT inverter AC coupling, so they have the instant ability to open the pass-through relay on gen port to dump the PV GT inverter if they get into trouble with too much excess power. Frequency shifting to reduce PV GT inverters output takes up to 2 seconds and is not fast enough when a large AC load is switched off, instantly creating an excess PV GT inverter power situation, when there is no grid present to dump excess PV power to.

LF hybrid inverters are inherently bi-directional and power flow can change from charging battery to sourcing AC output from battery instantly.

 

[rhino]

I'm not a a big fan of the battery terminals. We use welding cable, and I would be a little concerned about the tiny individual wires kind of going everywhere and not getting a good solid connection. This is not a make-or-break! More personal preference probably... I imagine it could be overcome by using ferrules crimped on, or something like that, if it would be an issue.

I used welding cable and just used ferrules.

 

[Brightside]

That is correct per my discussion with Sol-Ark tech support. Interestingly enough, the menu item is still there... Physically on the GUI of the inverters you don't have a check box to enable or disable, but you still have a watts setting. Remotely in PV Pro you still have an enable button as well as the watts setting.


That is what it sounds like. I don't know if rilling back firmware is a possiblity. I am doubting that it is possible on Sol-Ark units though, as I know they had some issues at one point with new firmware because of the number in the firmware name not being higher than the previous version and that caused it to not upload to the unit. This makes me think that a rollback would probably not work.

Now to be clear, I have not yet actually tested this out since they told me this, although I did have 2 different service calls that were related to gen shave not functioning properly and we ended up just moving to grid terminals because these 2 jobs were off grid. So I am now thinking those issues were from the (apparently) lack of having the function work anymore.

It is possible to roll back a Sol-Ark 15k.

I updated my 15K master slave setup a couple weeks ago to the latest FW. I thought it might fix some minor calibration and regulation issues. It ended up causing more problems and not fixing the issues I was having originally. I told them I couldn't handle having and updated system that is way worse than before.

They rolled me back to the FW I was originally on from the end of 2022.

They only roll back on a case by case basis. It sounds to me like you have a case, as you lost a feature you were sold when you bought it.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[Cmiller]

It is possible to roll back a Sol-Ark 15k.

I updated my 15K master slave setup a couple weeks ago to the latest FW. I thought it might fix some minor calibration and regulation issues. It ended up causing more problems and not fixing the issues I was having originally. I told them I couldn't handle having and updated system that is way worse than before.

They rolled me back to the FW I was originally on from the end of 2022.

They only roll back on a case by case basis. It sounds to me like you have a case, as you lost a feature you were sold when you bought it.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Good to know it's possible! Thanks for the knowledge!

 

[Cmiller]

I used welding cable and just used ferrules.

Yes, I thought about that a well. And that is probably the direction I would go with that, if we would start installing the 18kpv.

 

[Cmiller]

The issue with HF hybrid inverters is all power flows through the HV DC bus, with exception of AC input to AC output pass-through.

Problems comes into play during battery charging when an AC load shaving assist by inverter is required. The battery to HV DC converter must switch modes from charging batteries to sourcing power from batteries to supply the HV DC bus. This takes a little time to make the switchover in power flow direction. The large HV DC capacitor bank is supposed to absorb or source any power perturbations during the mode switchover, but it is limited on the total load it can support during the switchover time.

The problem SolArk is likely having is stability of the battery to HV DC converter causing potential damage to the unit under certain loading conditions.

What I don't quite understand is the fact that the tools me we can do so it using the grid input. I'm not sure why there would be a difference between the grid input or the gen input. Unless the CTs on the gen input (integrated in the circuit board) are inferior. Or maybe even the external ones are more sensitive, and needed in order to make it work.

Of course the external sensors are a whole other issue. Those are limited to measuring 80A... that would work for most generators, but for a 200A grid input...???

We currently have a 3 phase system with 3 phase generator feeding into grid input, and are using grid peak shave to keep from overloading the (45kW) gen. Works great! So obviously it's doable on grid input.