Solar house generator I started DIY back in 2000 - My path from Trace to Xantrex (on FLA battery) to XW Pro inverters on Tesla Model S batteries

[Hedges]

$500 for 5kWh of lithium (polymer?) cells assembled (used). Then you add BMS.
Cheapest LiFePO4 server rack around $1200 for same capacity (new).
I would have expected deeper discount for second life cells.

What is the weight?

I may have an interest in the higher power/weight ratio of such cells. I've bought 3x 5kW Sunny Boy Storage, which operate from 100V to 500V. Don't know the comms protocol. I'd like to put a lighter battery in the trunk of a vehicle and have the inverter charge/discharge interacting with my grid-backup system. And provide convenience outlet on the go. (or if I had an EV/hybrid, tap into its battery to do the same.)

 

[dougbert]

$500 for 5kWh of lithium (polymer?) cells assembled (used). Then you add BMS.
Cheapest LiFePO4 server rack around $1200 for same capacity (new).
I would have expected deeper discount for second life cells.

What is the weight?

I may have an interest in the higher power/weight ratio of such cells. I've bought 3x 5kW Sunny Boy Storage, which operate from 100V to 500V. Don't know the comms protocol. I'd like to put a lighter battery in the trunk of a vehicle and have the inverter charge/discharge interacting with my grid-backup system. And provide convenience outlet on the go. (or if I had an EV/hybrid, tap into its battery to do the same.)

55 lbs, 5.2kwh @ 24 volts

link to the Controller https://diysolarforum.com/threads/s...ters-on-tesla-model-s-batteries.11/post-75795

more info after that

at the time Fortress batteries were $700 per kwh, while tesla was $320

but the Controller was $3500. yet after after 4 modules teslas was cheaper than fortress

this link https://diysolarforum.com/threads/s...ters-on-tesla-model-s-batteries.11/post-99627

compares cost at that time to Simplfy batteries


Overkill came up with a BMS for a single module https://overkillsolar.com/product/tesla-bms-kit/

today, I would not go this route, I would go EG4 server batteries, but as I have sunk cost with the Controller, this is the cheapest for me now

 

[dougbert]

snow, rain and overcast here in Utah is hurting (again) my January solar production

so far since the 8th (start of billing cycle) I have generated just under 40% of my power needs via solar.
Did do the monthly generator startup and generated 5 kwh, but for the most part, using grid to float or re-charge the battery via the Chargeverter. Doing this during OFF-PEAK for 7.2 cents/kwh, not ON-PEAK at 14.3 cents/kwh

getting some power thru the clouds though

Happy Winter, right?

 

[dougbert]

spent several hours R&R'ing the PVC 2" conduit with 2" EMT conduit (left one) under the PDP to the main raceway
it contains GRID AC IN to inverter AC1 and inverter load AC OUT to transfer switch. Also along with GENERATOR AC IN to inverter AC2



and a view of the internals of the raceway













got 5 more PVC conduits to R&R in the coming days, to get things up to par.

 

[dougbert]

today, FINALLY some sun, with my array back down to 7.3kw (my other panels were on the ground and I had to pull them up due to snow) the system is generating 5.9kw. Had to use the chargeverter last night as the battery got low

solar re-charging: LOVE IT

 

[dougbert]

today finished installing the auto-charging circuits using the inverter AUX dry contactor connected to the Chargeverter, when battery voltage gets too low

see this post to read more about it

now I can relax about battery voltage going too low and the system would shutdown, it is automatic recharge now with the Chargeverter
just in time, because the Pineapple Express is coming tomorrow from California for a few days

again the purpose of using the CV is I don't have to mess with grid connection to the inverter, grid bypass and the like
far simpler for my operation without Netmetering

 

[dougbert]

Chargeverter was floating the battery @ 43v on friday and saturday due to overcast and rain. Sunday good sun, generated 32kwh. After that was done, I used the CV to charge battery to 49v because the storm in california began here last night. I wanted a full battery in case of grid down event. CV is floating at 49v now and it is snowing

with the house idling at 500-600 watts, the PV is fulfilling the load nicely. When something comes on, battery supplies power and the CV assists

 

[dougbert]

1PM here and have generated 2.1 kwh rate of 500 watts of production
On a sunny day, the system would generate 24kwh by this time.
Well it is powering the IDLE loads.
thick clouds with snow

 

[dougbert]

I believe the XW Pro Auxiliary Relay configuration control is reversed from what it documents

my Peak TOU time is 3PM to the Off peak time of 10PM M-F

my aim is to turn off the Chargeverter starting at 3PM and back on at 10PM to get the lower cost of 7.2 cents per kwh and not the 14.4 cents
(going to be overcast, raining and snowing for several days, thus I am not using the trigger of LOW Battery voltage to charge via the Chargeverter)

I am running the Auxiliary Output Trigger Source configured as Time of Day with Auxiliary Output Active Level set Active High which is 12v

I have Time of Day Trigger Set to 10PM to start charging
and Time of Day Trigger Clear to 3PM to stop charging

but it worked backward from the documentation

so I reversed the Set to 3PM and Clear to 10PM and it works fine

I believe it is set up like the Inverter's CHARGING BLOCK timer.

weird, so FYI for any using the XW Pro's AUX relay with trigger set on time of day operation

 

[dougbert]

3 days of full dark overcast with rain and snow
during that OFF PEAK time the grid, via the Chargeverter, is running the house and floating the battery at 49.0v, nearly full
grid consumption has been 21-22kwh per day for those 3 days

today is heavy snow as will be thursday and friday. Saturday and beyond is forecast for partly cloudy with some sun
today is also last day of the grid billing cycle

for the month of Jan billing cycle, solar production is on target for 56% generated and 44% grid purchased, very similar to last year's Jan cycle.

330kwh bought
425kwh generated

755kwh total plus today's which is not over


Operating parameters

automatic switching
on grid during OFF PEAK times, 10PM to 3PM (17 hours - 7.2 cents/kwh)
on battery during ON PEAK times, 3PM to 10PM (7 hours - 14.4 cents/kwh)

 

[dougbert]

I have been working on correcting the conduit (as mentioned prior) on my power wall in the basement. One more section left to fix

It occurred to me to share a photo or two of the valley I live in, here in Utah where I harvest my photons

here is an aerial pic from over the city looking west
City elevation 5500ft
pop some 18,000 in 2020 and growing much too fast.
Great solar light here

and a ground view of the downtown looking north

and lastly a view of our state owned railroad, used to view the valley

 

[faccnator]

Beautiful

 

[dougbert]

oh boy oh boy oh boy

SS has the XW Pro on sale for under $2900 AND free shipping
it has been $3500 for years


I sure do wish I still had a good income, I could buy my 2nd and last unit, but alas, medical is taking its toll with retirement

question for others: why is the price coming down?

1) newer more capable products giving the XW Pro a very good run for the money?
2) is SS getting ready to drop carrying it?
3) Is Schnider feeling pressure from the new inverters with more features and lower price points? I don't think so - to a point

If were to do my system today, starting from scratch, the EG4 18kpv ($5200) would be far less expensive system. AND it is fully UL listed and does utility intertie

if I kept my current off grid operating mode, then 2 or 3 EG4 6000xp ($3000/$4500) units would work for me

2 XW Pros, list about $7000
4 Conext CC 60/150 list about $2200
InsightLocal box $600
(All separate component modules, taking up a large wall)

I could get 2 18kpvs. Just amazing solar tech today
loving it

any other thoughts?

 

[dougbert]

I have been pondering what new FEATURES I might like to add. Such features would happen after my current short lists of tasks are complete, but I like to look out in time in order to prepare properly

My grid connection a 125 amp service. The entrance is 125 amps, with I believe to be 2/0 AL feeder.

Here are some pics of the panel when I added the EMP Shield a year ago. I installed this panel myself back in 1998 after upgrading from a 4 fuse load center (Gads)

even in this one, the ground bar is messy



after installing a new ground bar and the EMP Shield



so that is where I am at. I started looking at what it would entail to upgrade to a 200 amp service, and I found out that it would not take much (other than impact fee)

In my JHA, I am allowed to remove and replace the service panel with proper permit, inspections, etc myself

1) Once approved, I schedule with the Heber Light and Power to come and disconnect the service from my 2" mast as I have to switch to a 3" mast

2) remove mast wires and mast

3) remove Siemens old panel

4) build up the backing board as new panel is 12" taller for a mounting board

5) install new panel

6) connect existing SER cable to new 125 amp breaker
(8 spaces, and a 200 amp main) HOMLINE

7) Install new mast

8) Run new 4/0 ALU feeders down the mast and land them

9) Call inspector for the inspection

10) If all is good, he will call the power company to come back and do the connection

Viola - 200 amp service

Here is a possible panel

https://www.amazon.com/Square-Schneider-Electric-SC816D200C-Combination/dp/B008KNAQ6W/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_pl_foot_top?ie=UTF8

The ouch factor is the $2400 impact fee to add 75 more amps


But this upgrade can occur with minimal impact now, but allow me to swap out my existing 100 amp feed to the inverter from passing through the existing 125 amp house breaker and put that 100 amp feed through its own breaker in the new panel. That would free up the GRID only 125 panel to just do GRID loads, no bypass GRID power would go through that

rather, the separate 100 amp inverter only circuit would handle that
in addition I would have 6 open circuits for future loads

future task and feature add

NOTE: One nice thing is that I don't need to do all that in one day, in order to get the power on quickly. Because I can continue to run the house via the Inverter source side of the transfer switch for several days. Priceless

 

[Hedges]

My grid connection a 125 amp service. The entrance is 125 amps, with I believe to be 2/0 AL feeder.


1) Once approved, I schedule with the Heber Light and Power to come and disconnect the service from my 2" mast as I have to switch to a 3" mast

Why 3"?
For 200A service, I'm using 2" rigid conduit with three 3/0 copper wires. (OK, maybe larger needed for aluminum, maybe it fits)
This is overhead, and I hand stuff wires through straight conduit, bend, place weather head over it.

The ouch factor is the $2400 impact fee to add 75 more amps

Who's fee, what fee?
Is that for 200A service? What size breaker do you actually need?
You could put in 200A or 225A panel with smaller breaker, 125A or whatever, if that is sufficient. In that case how much?

My utility (PG&E) gave me a $3500 estimate. They asked about what loads I'm adding. None at this time, so they said to let them know when I am ready to add loads. Thus far it doesn't seem like they will actually charge anything, just "cut and swing" their existing 2 awg (?) wires from old weatherhead feeding 100A meter and crimp onto my 3/0 wires on new weatherhead feeding 200A meter (and install meter.) Not sure if even the meter is different, maybe just the socket I'm providing. They came to do the work without having charged me, but rejected my "rimless" meter socket, need to change to rim type.

If you put in 200A busbar panel and 200A main breaker, 120% rule may mean 40A max PV breaker to bidirectionally feed a hybrid.
Larger busbar or smaller main breaker allows larger PV breaker.
My solution is 200A main breaker only, no busbar, just Polaris with taps to multiple panels and disconnect switch.

Cost for utility transformer installation?

What has the utility company charged you for a transformer installation or upgrade on their side of the meter? How flexible/negotiable were they? I have a house in Oakland, CA. with 100A service. To support the PV install I want to do, and for more loads like electric heat (presently all gas)...

diysolarforum.com

NOTE: One nice thing is that I don't need to do all that in one day, in order to get the power on quickly. Because I can continue to run the house via the Inverter source side of the transfer switch for several days. Priceless

I'm doing it with new box and riser in a slightly different location. After utility moves their wires, I backfeed old panel to keep lights on until circuits moved over.

 

[dougbert]

Why 3"?
For 200A service, I'm using 2" rigid conduit with three 3/0 copper wires. (OK, maybe larger needed for aluminum, maybe it fits)
This is overhead, and I hand stuff wires through straight conduit, bend, place weather head over it.

I currently have a 2"
their residential requirements states 3", but I just found a prior page of requirements that states 2" - I am going to ask about that

also overhead and straight down -I was puzzled abt the 3" as well.
the largest HUB for the panel I am looking at is 2.5" so WTH?

Who's fee, what fee?
Is that for 200A service? What size breaker do you actually need?

the power company charges an IMPACT fee based service size.
a new 200 amp service is over $6500
since I already have 125 amp I just need to pay the difference

You could put in 200A or 225A panel with smaller breaker, 125A or whatever, if that is sufficient. In that case how much?

My utility (PG&E) gave me a $3500 estimate. They asked about what loads I'm adding. None at this time, so they said to let them know when I am ready to add loads. Thus far it doesn't seem like they will actually charge anything, just "cut and swing" their existing 2 awg (?) wires from old weatherhead feeding 100A meter and crimp onto my 3/0 wires on new weatherhead feeding 200A meter (and install meter.) Not sure if even the meter is different, maybe just the socket I'm providing. They came to do the work without having charged me, but rejected my "rimless" meter socket, need to change to rim type.

If you put in 200A busbar panel and 200A main breaker, 120% rule may mean 40A max PV breaker to bidirectionally feed a hybrid.
Larger busbar or smaller main breaker allows larger PV breaker.
My solution is 200A main breaker only, no busbar, just Polaris with taps to multiple panels and disconnect switch.

Cost for utility transformer installation?

What has the utility company charged you for a transformer installation or upgrade on their side of the meter? How flexible/negotiable were they? I have a house in Oakland, CA. with 100A service. To support the PV install I want to do, and for more loads like electric heat (presently all gas)...

diysolarforum.com

I'm doing it with new box and riser in a slightly different location. After utility moves their wires, I backfeed old panel to keep lights on until circuits moved over.

 

[dougbert]

I spoke with the Project Manager, and the requirement for conduit size is, big enough to hold the conduits with proper fill amount

So when I do it I will reuse the mast, and like you, will do 3/0 copper for that 15 or so feet. thanks for the reminder

And as to why I want to move to 200 amp, is that my current GRID 125 amp panel has the following circuits, which normally is too much for such:

NEMA L14-30r outside receptacle
NEMA 14-30r dryer receptacle
NEMA 14-50r oven receptacle
EVSE 60 amp port
100 amp feeder to the Solar Transfer switch GRID feed side. (Normally switched to the SOLAR feeder)

I want to move that 100 amp feeder to another 100 breaker on the 200 amp panel
that way I will not overload the 125 amp panel I have now

I am preparing for an inspection on the AC side of things (not the DC side)

all those circuits above
50 amp generator circuit
and the 1 100 amp critical loads subpanel, That in turn supplies its own local circuits and a 60 amp subpanel for the upstairs as well as a 50 amp subpanel to the out building

 

[dougbert]

well more research
from I have found is that for the mast header to the meter, one needs XHHW-2 wire, AL or CU
4/0 AL or 3/0 CU (2/0 copper would work, but on the boundary)

I have found 4/0 AL for abt $0.80 a foot

4/0 AWG XHHW-2 Aluminum Cable 600V

Specifications : Size AWG : 4/0, Stranding : 18, Conductor Diameter Inches : 0.475, Insulation Thickness Inches : 0.055, O.D. Inches : 0.585, New Weight lb/1000FT : 240 lbs, Ampacity at 75°C : 180 Amps, Ampacity at 90°C : 205 Amps. Standards : UL standard 44, ASTM standards B 800, B 801, Federal...

nassaunationalcable.com

I would need 3 wires, about 20 ft each, so say 60 ft plus the shipping and taxes, total of $72


CU would be $4.42 per foot (wow) totall cost of $312 (double wow) I see the difference

please if I got XHHW-2 wrong, correct me

 

[Hedges]

Although at first glance, it appears 200A service entrance requires 3/0 and UV resistant,
Based on this table I think you can use 2/0 copper THHN, THWN2

https://usawire-cable.com/wp-content/uploads/nec-ampacities.pdf

"*For dwelling units, conductors, as listed below, shall be permitted as 120/240 volt, 3 wire, single phase service-entrance conductors, service lateral conductors and feeder conductors that serve as the main power feeder to a dwelling unit and are installed in raceway or cable with or without an equipment grounding conductor. For application of this section, the main power feeder shall be the feeder(s) between the main disconnect and the lighting and appliance branch-circuit panel board(s) and the feeder conductors to a dwelling unit shall not be required to be larger than their service entrance conductors. The grounded conductor shall be permitted to be smaller than the ungrounded conductors provided the requirements of Sections 215.2, 220.22 and 230.42 are met.

RHH , RHW, THHW, THW, THWN, THHN, XHHW, USE, RHW-2, THW-2, THWN-2, XHHW-2, SE, USE-2

Copper 2/0
Aluminum 4/0
Service or Feeder Amperes 200"

The ampacity tables are for 3 current carrying conductors (3 phase), but split phase has only 2 so less heat produced.
And somewhere else I read that standard building wire is acceptable for the the exposed wires coming out of riser.

Service Entrance Conductors

I have a client who will not accept any cable type for use as a service entrance cable unless it has been tested for UL Standard 854. Their stance is that Article 338 only permits type USE for underground service entrance and type SE for above ground service entrance. They also point to NEC...

forums.mikeholt.com

"Type SE cable contains Type RHW, RHW-2, XHHW, XHHW-2, THWN or THWN-2 conductors."


$4.42/foot? Was that at an electrical supply house?
Lowes wants $7. By the roll, $5.32, or aluminum $1.82

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Southwire-SIMpull-3-0-AWG-Stranded-Black-Copper-THHN-Wire-By-the-Foot/50101592

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Southwire-1000-ft-3-0-Black-Stranded-CU-SIMpull-THHN-Wire/5000277551

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Southwire-1000-ft-3-0-AWG-Aluminum-Stranded-Black-XHHW-Wire-By-the-Roll/50434392

I was happy to pay something between $4 and $5 through eBay.

 

[dougbert]

Although at first glance, it appears 200A service entrance requires 3/0 and UV resistant,
Based on this table I think you can use 2/0 copper THHN, THWN2

https://usawire-cable.com/wp-content/uploads/nec-ampacities.pdf

"*For dwelling units, conductors, as listed below, shall be permitted as 120/240 volt, 3 wire, single phase service-entrance conductors, service lateral conductors and feeder conductors that serve as the main power feeder to a dwelling unit and are installed in raceway or cable with or without an equipment grounding conductor. For application of this section, the main power feeder shall be the feeder(s) between the main disconnect and the lighting and appliance branch-circuit panel board(s) and the feeder conductors to a dwelling unit shall not be required to be larger than their service entrance conductors. The grounded conductor shall be permitted to be smaller than the ungrounded conductors provided the requirements of Sections 215.2, 220.22 and 230.42 are met.

RHH , RHW, THHW, THW, THWN, THHN, XHHW, USE, RHW-2, THW-2, THWN-2, XHHW-2, SE, USE-2

Copper 2/0
Aluminum 4/0
Service or Feeder Amperes 200"

The ampacity tables are for 3 current carrying conductors (3 phase), but split phase has only 2 so less heat produced.
And somewhere else I read that standard building wire is acceptable for the the exposed wires coming out of riser.

Service Entrance Conductors

I have a client who will not accept any cable type for use as a service entrance cable unless it has been tested for UL Standard 854. Their stance is that Article 338 only permits type USE for underground service entrance and type SE for above ground service entrance. They also point to NEC...

forums.mikeholt.com

"Type SE cable contains Type RHW, RHW-2, XHHW, XHHW-2, THWN or THWN-2 conductors."


$4.42/foot? Was that at an electrical supply house?
Lowes wants $7. By the roll, $5.32, or aluminum $1.82

for 3/0 copper, $4.42

3/0 XHHW-2 Copper Building Wire

Buy 3/0 XHHW-2 Copper Wire now, get free shipping on orders over $1000. Perfect for large-scale electrical projects requiring durable, high-capacity wiring.

nassaunationalcable.com

and shipping of some $30

$4.10 for THHN

3/0 THHN THWN-2 Stranded Copper Building Wire

Specifications : Size AWG : 3/0, Weight per 1,000 ft : 570 lbs, Outside Diameter : 0.600 inches, Conductors : Annealed Soft Copper per ASTM B3 and ASTM B8, Number of Strands : 19, Insulation : PVC, Insulation Thickness (mils) : 50, Nylon Thickness (mils) : 7, Jacket : PVC, Houston Wire Part # ...

nassaunationalcable.com

$3.29 for 2/0 XHHW-2 + shipping

2/0 XHHW-2 Copper Building Wire

2/0 XHHW-2 cable, 195A, ideal for conduit or direct burial, commercial & residential. Complies with NEC. Free shipping on orders over $1000.

nassaunationalcable.com

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Southwire-SIMpull-3-0-AWG-Stranded-Black-Copper-THHN-Wire-By-the-Foot/50101592

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Southwire-1000-ft-3-0-Black-Stranded-CU-SIMpull-THHN-Wire/5000277551

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Southwire-1000-ft-3-0-AWG-Aluminum-Stranded-Black-XHHW-Wire-By-the-Roll/50434392

I was happy to pay something between $4 and $5 through eBay.

thank you, good references