SOLVED: EG4 Lifepower4 24v dead battery reading on Magnum 4k hybrid inverter.

[McRod]

Very strange
What model inverter do you have?
(Sorry, if you already stated this)

Its a Magnum MSH4024M 4000W 24v hybrid transformer based inverter. IMO, much better quality than the growatts being sold. But also costs more.

 

[timselectric]

Well, it may be an issue with this battery model.
As seen on koldsimer's inverter, also.
I'm using the same battery, with a Growatt inverter. And (knock on wood) haven't had any problems.

 

[McRod]

You seem to be experiencing the same thing i went through. Three other types of batteries worked perfectly to fire up my schneider 6848 inverter- discover lithium, sok lithium and good ole lead acid. Very frustrating to say the least. Signature was unable to fix the issue with the lifepower batteries in my case and it was a complete waste of two months of my time. In a thread i started here to get help, it took them 6 months to answer this simple question- What initiates the pre-charge function in the lifepower batteries?

They did exchange my batteries for the ll model that has no pre-charge issues as far as i know. It only happened because i kept suggesting we at least try it to see if the problem was just with the lifepower batteries or a larger issue.

The problem is in the bms and pre-charge function. There seems to be no fix, other than the supplemental dc source workaround you used. I had to do the same thing. Not exactly confidence inspiring.

The problem seems to be more prevalent with the larger inverters that have a large capacitor bank to charge.

Yes, I think that's what will happen. Did I understand you were able to exchange for the EG4-LL version? And that fixed the problem? I cant get an exact answer on what the difference is between these batteries, other than the obvious physical differences. But before purchasing I asked a lot of questions to the sales guy, who had to go ask someone else...basically came back and said no difference.

 

[Jack Rabbit Off Grid]

Yes, I think that's what will happen. Did I understand you were able to exchange for the EG4-LL version? And that fixed the problem? I cant get an exact answer on what the difference is between these batteries, other than the obvious physical differences. But before purchasing I asked a lot of questions to the sales guy, who had to go ask someone else...basically came back and said no difference.

Totally different BMS but the same cells.

 

[Koldsimer]

Yes, I think that's what will happen. Did I understand you were able to exchange for the EG4-LL version? And that fixed the problem? I cant get an exact answer on what the difference is between these batteries, other than the obvious physical differences. But before purchasing I asked a lot of questions to the sales guy, who had to go ask someone else...basically came back and said no difference.

That is correct. Zero startup issues with the LL model battery as far as i know. It worked perfectly starting my system.

 

[McRod]

Well, it may be an issue with this battery model.
As seen on koldsimer's inverter, also.
I'm using the same battery, with a Growatt inverter. And (knock on wood) haven't had any problems.

Yeah. The system works fine with other brand lithium batteries and regular lead acid batteries.

 

[timselectric]

You two have different inverters, but the same issue.
The common denominator is the battery.

 

[McRod]

Totally different BMS but the same cells.

Thank you. Richard also gave me more details. Here is his response:

"Ya, the cells between the 2 are the same. One isn't a 'newer' version, they just have the bms with the LCD screen, a 10 year vs 5 year warranty (LL=10 year, Lifepower=5 year), and firmware differences. We have seen some issues with both - but a majority of the time it is explained through proper load balancing and sizing. The start up procedure on the LL seems to have a little more leeway."

 

[McRod]

You two have different inverters, but the same issue.
The common denominator is the battery.

Nice mathematical viewpoint. I used the process of elimination to come to the same conclusion. I literally began disconnecting everything and putting one thing at a time back on the system to test.

Hopefully Richard can help expedite an RMA, I already know it will be 5-7 days (after this 4 day weekend holiday) before I can speak with a tech person.

 

[timselectric]

Nice mathematical viewpoint. I used the process of elimination to come to the same conclusion. I literally began disconnecting everything and putting one thing at a time back on the system to test.

Hopefully Richard can help expedite an RMA, I already know it will be 5-7 days (after this 4 day weekend holiday) before I can speak with a tech person.

I hope that it gets taken care of quickly.
I wish you good luck.

 

[Koldsimer]

Nice mathematical viewpoint. I used the process of elimination to come to the same conclusion. I literally began disconnecting everything and putting one thing at a time back on the system to test.

Hopefully Richard can help expedite an RMA, I already know it will be 5-7 days (after this 4 day weekend holiday) before I can speak with a tech person.

Sure hope you read their return policy closely. You're on the hook to ship it back and then there is a re-stocking fee. Good luck.

 

[Alkaline]

The RV is stationary. Its my home. Don't apologize for being hella judgmental!

You can safely mount lithium batteries in most any orientation.

Apologies then.

No, you should not putting them upside down of pilling them on there weak side (the bottom and sides are the strong side, the body side is the weakest as it allows for some expansion/contraction) is very bad.

The best position for prismatic is vent side facing up.

 

[timselectric]

Actually, as confirmed by EVE. Any orientation is fine, except for vent down.

 

[McRod]

Sure hope you read their return policy closely. You're on the hook to ship it back and then there is a re-stocking fee. Good luck.

Yeah, but the product has to work. Any good business will stand behind their product if it doesn't work as intended. I hope this don't become a CS issue. I would certainly be willing to pay any price difference in products, but not other fees for something not working correctly.

 

[Alkaline]

Actually, as confirmed by EVE. Any orientation is fine, except for vent down.

Someone made I post I can't find it but it showed if you don't have them on either the bottom or the short side you will not evenly coat the waffers in the cell, I need to find that post it was nice little illustration he made...

 

[timselectric]

Someone made I post I can't find it but it showed if you don't have them on either the bottom or the short side you will not evenly coat the waffers in the cell, I need to find that post it was nice little illustration he made...

If the manufacturer says it's ok, that's good enough for me.

 

[robby]

Yeah, but the product has to work. Any good business will stand behind their product if it doesn't work as intended. I hope this don't become a CS issue. I would certainly be willing to pay any price difference in products, but not other fees for something not working correctly.

@Koldsimer do you remember when you were young and innocent like this

 

[Lilikoi_Heavy_Industries]

Yeah, but the product has to work. Any good business will stand behind their product if it doesn't work as intended. I hope this don't become a CS issue. I would certainly be willing to pay any price difference in products, but not other fees for something not working correctly.

How much load is going through your inverter when this happens?

What is the running voltage of the system during this testing (on a video)? What is the Min/Max voltage of the system during this test procedure?

Have you connected the windows software for BMS interface? This would show why the battery shutdown in its' errors. I haven't installed this software myself, and don't really want to install on anything other than a burner laptop, but it would be nice to know what alarm it shutdown over.

DC Ripple?
Based on the description of the issue you've given, which doesn't include much hard data, I'd go into your magnum battery charger settings and reduce the battery charger voltages a little bit, which could reduce the impacts of DC ripple, apparently being caused by either the transfer switch or battery charger operations in your magnum and the order in which it makes that change. Considering the charging voltage parameters aren't listed in your post and the running system voltages aren't shown on your video, I'm basically an alternate energy psychic if I actually got this right. Revert your modifications if nothing changes after further testing (but also make sure these settings are correct while you're there).

Have you tried shutting the charger off before disconnecting using the magnum control interface? What happens? Do you have the magnum control interface? This test could help isolate whether transfer switch or battery charger operation is causing the issue (or if it's the synchronized operation of the two).


Current Sharing?
The videos show that the batteries aren't setup for ideal current sharing. I'm surprised the seller hasn't pointed this out?

Current Sharing Better Fix:
Add busbars to tie your batteries together, connect your system to the new battery busbars instead of directly to the packs. This helps distribute the load to both batteries evenly. Position the connections so that resistance/distance between the inverter/loads wire is the same to each battery.

If you still run into issues with shutting the BMS down because of current sharing issues, get a clamp multimeter (or two) to show how many amps are going through each wire (system positive wire to battery one and the positive wire between battery one/two--then make a new video. This would document how many amps your system is hitting the BMS with--See if the seller agrees this is a suitable test procedure before investing time?

Current Sharing Not-as-good Fix:
Connect your system to the negative terminal of the other battery pack. This isn't as good as busbars, but it does encourage power to be pulled from both packs more evenly than connecting both the system positive and negative wires to just one battery.

I'd also tell you to get a heavier wire tying the batteries together, but that circuit breaker is in the way. I tried it myself with 2AWG 1FT and it wasn't a good fit, decided to go with the included 6AWG for now until busbars, but that's not as good an idea on a 24v system (these 6AWG wires are for connection to busbar).


Full disclosure, I'm operating my 51.2V Lifepower4 packs in the "not-as-good" configuration, with the loads positive wire on battery 1 and the loads negative wire on battery 2. That's because I need to buy busbars still. The Lifepower4 48v/51.2v packs I'm using are good for twice as many watts power output as the 24V, and you're running a higher wattage inverter than I am also, you're 2-3 times more likely to hit BMS overload given the exact same system loads.

 

[McRod]

How much load is going through your inverter when this happens?

What is the running voltage of the system during this testing (on a video)? What is the Min/Max voltage of the system during this test procedure?

Have you connected the windows software for BMS interface? This would show why the battery shutdown in its' errors. I haven't installed this software myself, and don't really want to install on anything other than a burner laptop, but it would be nice to know what alarm it shutdown over.

DC Ripple?
Based on the description of the issue you've given, which doesn't include much hard data, I'd go into your magnum battery charger settings and reduce the battery charger voltages a little bit, which could reduce the impacts of DC ripple, apparently being caused by either the transfer switch or battery charger operations in your magnum and the order in which it makes that change. Considering the charging voltage parameters aren't listed in your post and the running system voltages aren't shown on your video, I'm basically an alternate energy psychic if I actually got this right. Revert your modifications if nothing changes after further testing (but also make sure these settings are correct while you're there).

Have you tried shutting the charger off before disconnecting using the magnum control interface? What happens? Do you have the magnum control interface? This test could help isolate whether transfer switch or battery charger operation is causing the issue (or if it's the synchronized operation of the two).


Current Sharing?
The videos show that the batteries aren't setup for ideal current sharing. I'm surprised the seller hasn't pointed this out?

Current Sharing Better Fix:
Add busbars to tie your batteries together, connect your system to the new battery busbars instead of directly to the packs. This helps distribute the load to both batteries evenly. Position the connections so that resistance/distance between the inverter/loads wire is the same to each battery.

If you still run into issues with shutting the BMS down because of current sharing issues, get a clamp multimeter (or two) to show how many amps are going through each wire (system positive wire to battery one and the positive wire between battery one/two--then make a new video. This would document how many amps your system is hitting the BMS with--See if the seller agrees this is a suitable test procedure before investing time?

Current Sharing Not-as-good Fix:
Connect your system to the negative terminal of the other battery pack. This isn't as good as busbars, but it does encourage power to be pulled from both packs more evenly than connecting both the system positive and negative wires to just one battery.

I'd also tell you to get a heavier wire tying the batteries together, but that circuit breaker is in the way. I tried it myself with 2AWG 1FT and it wasn't a good fit, decided to go with the included 6AWG for now until busbars, but that's not as good an idea on a 24v system (these 6AWG wires are for connection to busbar).


Full disclosure, I'm operating my 51.2V Lifepower4 packs in the "not-as-good" configuration, with the loads positive wire on battery 1 and the loads negative wire on battery 2. That's because I need to buy busbars still. The Lifepower4 48v/51.2v packs I'm using are good for twice as many watts power output as the 24V, and you're running a higher wattage inverter than I am also, you're 2-3 times more likely to hit BMS overload given the exact same system loads.

That's a long post so I will try to give it a good response.

The system load is minimal. This is an RV, which separates out small 12V loads for lights, fans and other on demand needs like awnings or heater fan.

The 4000w 24v inverter handles the 120v loads like TV, Refrigerator and 120v outlets.

The system minimum voltage is 12v and max is 120v. In the video you are looking at a 24v DC system.

I have connected the BMS software to the batteries and found it to be very clumsy at best. Its software from the 80s asking for baud rates and port configurations! Although I was able to get it to connect to port 3 eventually, I was not able to pull in any battery data. At the end of the day, I could see it was the batteries tripping. The batteries were replaced by other brand name and types and operate without failure. That pretty much indicates its a battery issue. As a consumer, I am not going to play repairman on a newly purchased product. It either works or it doesn't.

The magnum battery charger was off. The magnum inverter was on. There was no DC load charging the batteries from the inverter at the time the AC was disconnected. The solar charge controller was also turned off in the video when the AC was disconnected. This, in fact, was how the problem was originally seen. The AC load that was connected was a 20A power cord. That being said, I was not pulling 20A. When my A/C units are off, I rarely pull more than 15A for the entire RV. Only when high draw appliances, like coffee maker, air fryer, A/C are in do I pull significant Amperage.

I do have the magnum BMK(battery monitoring kit) and the MC-50 control interface, which reported a "dead battery" fault and the inverter would not power on. As you can see in the video, the batteries tripped which is why it was giving that fault. The MC-50 provides me with very detailed amperage, voltage, and temperature data, better than an amp clamp. It basically said, "hey dummy, the batteries are not working. Did you power them on?"

I am aware that I do not have the batteries connected to the bussbar. There is one in use. The factory cables were not long enough to reach. And since its more important to have same length cables, I chose to stack the connection until I can build longer cables. But it is for two batteries, which will not cause significant issue in charging. This would not be the cause of the issue. It only introduces inefficiencies in charging and discharging.

Signature solar has already acknowledged this is a BMS issue. I am not the 1st customer to have this problem, and it has already been resolved by using a different battery with a different bms. Richard indicated they are working on a solution, maybe a firmware upgrade for the BMS?

I wish I could be the one that could provide a technical explanation to others on this forum so they could prevent or fix it if it happens to them. Unfortunately, I am not Will Prowse.

I would offer that these batteries with this particular BMS is most likely optimized to work with EG4, MPP and Growatt inverters. When customers, like me, use them with other brands, unforeseen errors can and do occur. That being said, Signature Solar does have a "bare bones" compatibility test with my inverter brand (not the exact model), but the issue that is arising was not introduced in their video.

Thank you for your questions and input.

 

[Lilikoi_Heavy_Industries]

I wish I could be the one that could provide a technical explanation to others on this forum so they could prevent or fix it if it happens to them. Unfortunately, I am not Will Prowse.

Has legacy system/interop issues... Refuses to share the most basic data about system configurations. Can't get a clamp meter out because he isn't will prowse and owns MAGNUM SUPARSHUNT. What a character! Maybe better for you to buy at the RV store and pay the prices there.

It takes all kinds to make up this great world! *HUGS*

EDIT:
"This would not be the cause of the issue. It only introduces inefficiencies in charging and discharging."
Maybe look up the Will Prowse current sharing video he made recently? Since you don't want to buy a clamp meter.