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[solved]WARNING. here be dragons. Stress testing a single cell with a DIY transformer

This is how I learn. by doing, creating radioactive plumes of smoke in the process. ;)

This simple power supply you are refering to, can you please give an example of one?

Meanwell HRP-600-3.3


It is a power supply with current limiting so it can be used as charger. Voltage can be adjusted from 2.8 tot 3.8V so no problem setting it at 3.65V

Slightly cheaper available on eg Ebay Germany
 
Does your final build have the capabilities to charge a battery with a 150A current? For 16S LiFePo4 this would be ~7.5kW power going to the batteries. This is some serious power.

I would take a different path - buy cells that are from a confirmed manufacturer. I trust the specs of EVE cells and they are in the cheap range. Consider if the validation of cell specs will justify the investments that you are making.

If you keep going with the experiment consider the option to source CC/CV power supplies with lower specs and wire them in parallel. If you get a supply that can produce 20A in CC mode you should be fine with paralleling 7 of these to get 140A.

The option with a variable transformer has its downsides. Bridge rectifier and capacitors after it will produce ripple voltage/current without descent amount of capacitors. And for 150A current to get low ripple you'll need a really decent amount of capacitors. With ripple your charging current will be going from (let's say) 20A to 150A 100 times in a second and the average charging current will be ~85A.
 
sweet, the iron powder is not conductive if I did the tests correctly. I also tried the resistance mode on the multimeter and holding the probes close to each other in the powder. Did not matter which resistance range I had selected the measured value always remained OL

I am going to try a small scale version first of the core at a really low voltage as I only have 1 kilo of powder at the moment.
If results are promosing I will go full scale.
Meanwell HRP-600-3.3
Yes thank you. it comes really close to what I asked for indeed.

i neglected to mention however that I will be making the transformer core in such a way it is easy to change the windings of the coils so it can be used in many scenarios. e.g. testing multiple cells in series (e.g. 58VDC) at high current. EDIT: I mean easy to swap out coils
 
Does your final build have the capabilities to charge a battery with a 150A current? For 16S LiFePo4 this would be ~7.5kW power going to the batteries. This is some serious power.

I would take a different path - buy cells that are from a confirmed manufacturer. I trust the specs of EVE cells and they are in the cheap range. Consider if the validation of cell specs will justify the investments that you are making.

If you keep going with the experiment consider the option to source CC/CV power supplies with lower specs and wire them in parallel. If you get a supply that can produce 20A in CC mode you should be fine with paralleling 7 of these to get 140A.

The option with a variable transformer has its downsides. Bridge rectifier and capacitors after it will produce ripple voltage/current without descent amount of capacitors. And for 150A current to get low ripple you'll need a really decent amount of capacitors. With ripple your charging current will be going from (let's say) 20A to 150A 100 times in a second and the average charging current will be ~85A.
thank you for the suggestions. I will take them into account.
 
I hadn't known about 3-D printed cores before you brought it up. I've bought ferrite toroids.
Here's an article with some BH curves:

sweet. However I am not nearly ready for magnetizing 3d printed objects ;)

I use a filament that has iron in it. However it only has 10% iron and that appearantly is not enough according to this experiment.
I only found that video after printing my first solid core using the aforementioned filament otherwise I would not have tried.

This is why I am now going to try again printing a hollow core, using this ferromagnetic filament, and filling it with the iron powder.
 
also after seeing this iron powder core table I am skipping the prototyping and am going full scale from the get go.
ohh yeah baby, I am getting excited again!!

buying 25 kilo of iron powder now
 
"Transformer core full when packed, some settling may occur in operation."

You could skip the 3-D printing, just use plastic pipe or tubing to hold the powder.
The ability to assemble core around a finished coil may be useful. No fancy winding machine needed, just wind onto a spool (or pipe with shoulders.)
 
In this video, he plays with cores in a coil of wire, then explains that hysteresis losses are lower for ferrite core than for silicon steel laminated core (making ferrite more efficient), but silicon steel can handle a higher level of magnetization before saturating, making them better for low frequency operation.


So you'll probably find that at 50/60 Hz, wattage your ferrite powder transformer can handle is much lower than a laminate core of same size.
 
cool video. I am not understanding it yet though. Anyway I am not going to use ferrite as this is not a high frequency applicaiton. I am going to use iron powder.
 
What is the magnetic permeability of the powder?
I'm not sure of where "iron powder" fits into the definition of "ferrite" or "steel core", but I think it is a high-frequency ferrite.
Various steel alloys are used for cores. Silicon steel is used for at least some (relatively) low-loss toroids, also other low-frequency applications.

You should use a coil around sample of core (maybe a core that forms a complete magnetic circuit, e.g. inside a plastic pipe to make an "O" shape), and use variac (probably together with step-down isolation transformer) and come up with BH curve, see how much voltage/current to saturate. I think the iron powder core won't handle nearly as much as laminated steel. It could be a good fit for high-frequency switcher, but not 50/60 Hz low-frequency.

For higher frequency applications, different ferrites are used for different frequency ranges, to get the best loss and perhaps other characteristics.
I used an "iron powder" ferrite for an 11 MHz RF application, an analytical instrument. Relative permeability was just 8.



An early attempt, with "enamel" magnet wire and multiple taps.
Problems were high capacitance due to thin insulation, and extra turns for the multiple taps, which lowered resonant frequency excessively (below intended operating frequency.)

1645378299970.png

Production, using "Kynar" wire-wrap wire which has about 10 mil thick insulation:

1645378698110.png
 
What is the magnetic permeability of the powder?
I am not sure how to measure that. I've spend an hour or so reading up and searching and found nothing I understand or I find only things that seem inconsistent.

The powder I have is almost pure iron (>99% FE, 0.05% carbon, 0.6% Oxygen)
I am beginning to suspect that it is not ferrite and that it can be used in this application although not super efficient. But that is ok.
 
It is related to the ratio of coil inductance with/without core. I'm not sure if core geometry (cross-section area & centerline length) are part of the equation.

I hate Greek letters (except the one used for "ohms"). They make it so hard to solve equations.


Working with those -6 ferrite cores above, I started with data sheet indicating a particular inductance for a particular number of turns, and calculated assuming inductance goes as square of turns. It was far from that, due to low permeability not confining magnetic field so it passed through all other coils. I ended up designing it empirically.

In the video I linked a few posts back, he showed how current through coil (fed by AC) decreased when he inserted core material. But most of the magnetic circuit path length was still through air; he only shorted a fraction of it with core material. So only a bit of difference between steel and ferrite.


What I'm doing is described in the EEVblog link:


After reviewing the equations implemented with LTSpice parameterized components such as voltage controlled current source, I figured out how to take data points from the hysteresis curve (generated with variac, integrator, scope), which had mA on x-axis & mW on y-axis, and convert them to Hc, Br, Bs. Then I was able to simulate in LTSpice and get a hysteresis curve that was similar (but not a perfect match.)


The following link puts relative permeability
{\displaystyle \mu _{\mathrm {r} }={\frac {\mu }{\mu _{0}}},}
of pure iron at 200,000 but iron powder compound at 14 to 100.

 
My latest experiment and what was posted above crossed each other so I'll make sure to read up.


While I am waiting for the isolating transformer to arrive I figured to use a torodail transformer in the mean time as I assumed it is also isolating.

I am not sure how many volts went in (variac dial at 25%) but I was able to measure about 150 milli VAC coming out of the torodial transformer.

So I hooked up a pipe filled with iron powder which I sloppyly coiled up with only a primary coil for now.

However the experiment tripped the circuit breaker again ;(

Any suggestions on how to proceed are welcome.

1645448813895.png
 
You can use an ohm meter to see if coils of a transformer are isolated. Usually, each coil is isolated from others and has two leads. External to the windings, two coils might be connected in series, or in parallel (need to be same number of turns). Occasionally, two windings might already be connected in series with just 3 leads coming out.

Without anything connected to toroid transformer, measuring voltage in and out gives ratio of turns.

In the guy's video, with a 12V transformer, he connected a 12V car head lamp in series. That way if your DUT (device under test) doesn't have enough impedance to keep current low enough, voltage drops across the lamp and maximum current is what the lamp would draw.

The variacs I've seen go some percentage above input voltage. Yours has a meter up to 300V. 25% would be 75V from variac into toroid. You haven't indicated what voltage ratio toroid has. Open-circuit, that is. "150 mV" is its output pulled down with the short circuit loading it.

Your DUT has a coil diameter (about 2.5 cm) and number of turns (about 100?). Loosely space, so without core most magnetic field would leak out. You could calculate inductance assuming a uniform solenoid. Calculate AC impedance (reactance) at 50 Hz. Calculate current vs. voltage.

Measured with/without core material should give an indication of relative permeability.
Without a plumbing "T" to fill from, I would imagine there are airgaps without powder. But that probably isn't the biggest problem, rather the relative permeability being low.

It seems annealing is performed on magnetic material after they are formed. We've go some quotes for Mu-metal shields, which are to be formed by drawing or welding, then annealed. Working metal or sudden cooling results in small grains. Annealing grows large grains. If large grains make higher magnetic permeability, your powder is many tiny grains.

Iron powders relative permeability 2000 to 6000


Cores made from iron powder, 35 to 75


4 to 75


Sintered metal cores (metallurgical bond between particles) and "soft metallic composites" (no metallurgical bond, just interlocking shapes and dielectrics sticking together)


Is your iron powder intended for making magnets, or for sintering to use in other applications?
 
Or you could just let someone with one or two dc power supplies do the test safely. My two will only go up to 80A at 3.6VDC
I really prefer to learn how to make my own transformers as I will be needing more in the future that are highly specific to a custom scenario and therefore simply not (easily) store bought.
 
two coils might be connected in series
Yes you are right. The torodial transformer you saw on the picture can have 110 or 220VAC input. Currently the primary coils are connected in series as to allow for an 220VAC input.
Without anything connected to toroid transformer, measuring voltage in and out gives ratio of turns.
Yes indeed. The primary coil is still original. The original secondary I already removed and wound my own ;)

The variacs I've seen go some percentage above input voltage. Yours has a meter up to 300V. 25% would be 75V from variac into toroid. You haven't indicated what voltage ratio toroid has. Open-circuit, that is. "150 mV" is its output pulled down with the short circuit loading it.
I'll try and wrap my head around that.

Measured with/without core material should give an indication of relative permeability.
great, that might yield some useful data.

Without a plumbing "T" to fill from, I would imagine there are airgaps without powder. But that probably isn't the biggest problem, rather the relative permeability being low.
Yes you might well be correct. I tried my best but I can already see some powder leaking out and it was never 100% filled to begin with.
I'll try using a larger diameter pipe while making the circle smaller. Also i'll try filling it up better next time.
Is your iron powder intended for making magnets, or for sintering to use in other applications?
it's called

Iron powder, CUT 150, purity min. 99%, magnetic, color, rust effect, FE​

I get it from here;
it looks to be for making magnets. sintering is not mentioned anywhere
Chemical analysis, weight %
Iron, >99.0%
Carbon, % 0.05 Leco C/S
O (H2-loss), % 0.60 DIN ISO 4491-2
Flow time s / 50g: 32.5
Bulk density: 2.79 g/cm³
Melting point: 1535 degrees
Boiling point: 2750 degrees
Chemically Stable
The particle shape is spherical
Manufacturing process: Air atomized
The powder is excellent for making magnetic paint
 
also i'd like to be able to make a transformer without sintering the powder as I'd really like to be able to recycle the powder once it's no longer needed in a particular application.
 

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