Starting Your Own Utility Company

[NorbH]

Hey folks,

what would one need to do to run his/her own utility company or at least sell to an established one at a grid scale?

Background
I'm quite interested in the renewables/energy transition/recycling thing but found it very hard to make a meaningful contribution. Flying less, eating less meat, driving e-cars all make sense but they don't really move the needle. I want not only feel good but actually make a measurable contribution - this is way harder than I thought.

The Idea
Buy a plot of land and then incrementally increase the number of panels/inverters and sell the produced energy into the grid.
Sounds simple, but it probably isn't

Hurdles
When it comes to hurdles, I can think of a couple... the list surely isn't exhaustive.

- Legal (Permits, Contracts with other utilities, Liability, …)
- Land purchase (Location, Size)
- System Dimensions (Surely grid-scale has a relatively high minimum size)
- Financial (Even the smallest scale probably costs several 100k$)

Has this ever been done from scratch? Have you heard/read/seen a similar project in the US recently?

 

[Mattb4]

post deleted.

 

[BlueMarblePA]

It seems the best option is to work with land developers? Maybe if a new suburban community is going up, it would make sense to dedicate some of the land to solar panel farm so that the home owners of the new area could buy into the renewable concept. It seems you need to find a buyer of the electricity who would be willing to pay more than the Utility. The Utility company will likely pay very little for unreliable solar?

 

[Bluedog225]

Business plan.

 

[Ampster]

In California generation has been deregulated and the Investor Owned Utilities do not own much production. Since I presume you are planning on doing this in Michigan you need to research the practices and rules for that State. Who is the competition for power there?

 

[OffGridInTheCity]

Business plan.

Yes sir - including plans for community outreach against some folks not liking solar panels - either they way they look or covering the land or whatever. To me, they're one of the most wonderful things invented as they're quiet, don't smell, don't pollute (where they are installed), and make good power. But to many they are offensive. Almost every solar project in my area also has a group of people against putting them up.

 

[NorbH]

In California generation has been deregulated and the Investor Owned Utilities do not own much production. Since I presume you are planning on doing this in Michigan you need to research the practices and rules for that State. Who is the competition for power there?

Doing that right now - it's a very long shot but at least an interesting one. In Michigan most electricity comes from Consumers Energy, there are others but not many. Selling to them at wholesale rates is probably the way to go.

Community solar isn't yet an option here and I assume that price won't be competitive if you are building a system that is too small.

 

[NorbH]

Yes sir - including plans for community outreach against some folks not liking solar panels - either they way they look or covering the land or whatever. To me, they're one of the most wonderful things invented as they're quiet, don't smell, don't pollute (where they are installed), and make good power. But to many they are offensive. Almost every solar project in my area also has a group of people against putting them up.

Never understood those folks :D Powerplants of any type are an eyesore... not sure why panels/windmills get soo much hate.

 

[Browse]

The best use of community solar panels I have seen is when they build large arrays over parking lots that also serve as a shade and rain cover people who park there. They've done this in my area at train stations, schools, beaches and government building complexes.

 

[NorbH]

The best use of community solar panels I have seen is when they build large arrays over parking lots that also serve as a shade and rain cover people who park there. They've done this in my area at train stations, schools, beaches and government building complexes.

I've seen that too and generally find it to be good use of otherwise un-usable space. Rooftop installations on top of warehouses is another possibility.

 

[HarryN]

If you want to do things that "move the needle significantly", then doing exactly what everyone else is doing is not going to be the path.

Look at the actual power usage (demand) patterns on an hour by hour and month by month basis for our area.

Now look at how people are installing solar, both roof top and commercially and see if the power supplied - on an hour by hour basis - matches the power needed during those times.

The opportunity to make a significant difference is is where these do not align - and using common sense to bring these into alignment without trying to change human behavior or spend tons of money on batteries.

 

[NorbH]

If you want to do things that "move the needle significantly", then doing exactly what everyone else is doing is not going to be the path.

Look at the actual power usage (demand) patterns on an hour by hour and month by month basis for our area.

Now look at how people are installing solar, both roof top and commercially and see if the power supplied - on an hour by hour basis - matches the power needed during those times.

The opportunity to make a significant difference is is where these do not align - and using common sense to bring these into alignment without trying to change human behavior or spend tons of money on batteries.

I agree with your message, especially the final part of it. Anything that requires large scale behavioral change is most likely not succeeding.

With regard to the rest, how would I be able to find the data you are suggesting me having a look at? I would not have thought that detailed demand/usage data is publicly available.

 

[rodrick]

Never understood those folks :D Powerplants of any type are an eyesore... not sure why panels/windmills get soo much hate.

Solar panels are not a big problem they can be installed discretely on homes in yards and remote areas and not really noticeable

windmills are another story they are not something you want anywhere near you they are noisy, giant albatross that destroys your views of your surroundings, cause flashing light during the daytime annoying flashing red lights at night, kills wildlife are very dangerous certain times of the year to be near just to name a few of the issues I have seen with them

 

[Ampster]

elling to them at wholesale rates is probably the way to go.

Yes that is what the solar farms do in California. Even though PPAs have bad reputation in the consumer space they are the contractual mechanism used commercially unless you want to speculate on the spot market. I have seen a trend in California where new farms are adding batteries to open up other time frames. The rates paid for power mid day in California are low because there is so much available and demand is low because of rooftop solar. There is also the risk of curtailment which batteries help mitigate. Your market may be different but wholesale rates in California are as low as $0.05 per kWh.

 

[hwy17]

The best use of community solar panels I have seen is when they build large arrays over parking lots that also serve as a shade and rain cover people who park there. They've done this in my area at train stations, schools, beaches and government building complexes.

Those are not financially viable for their generation alone, the canopy triples the cost or more. So there has to be subsidy or someone willing to pay for the benefit of the parking shade.

 

[Bluedog225]

It’s a pretty basic equation. Dollars invested and return on investment. The latter being determined by what the utility will pay you for output.

 

[HarryN]

I agree with your message, especially the final part of it. Anything that requires large scale behavioral change is most likely not succeeding.

With regard to the rest, how would I be able to find the data you are suggesting me having a look at? I would not have thought that detailed demand/usage data is publicly available.

For here in California, the Cal - ISO system publishes the data as well as makes forecast.

I believe that the Texas and Midest power systems also do.

I grew up in N OH - not sure exactly how it is done in that area now but I would start by looking at the US Department of Energy and the Utility's web sites. Perhaps others on the forum will chime in with additional information to help with your question.

______

Quite a few people on this forum publish the output curves of their solar systems, so if you look through the off grid systems and grid tied system sections of the forum, there are quite a few graphs that show the typical output curves.

I have commented on some so if you are have trouble, just follow back on some of my comments - some are more correct than others so you will need to make your own decision about the level of usefulness, after all it is a public comments forum. People are happy to post their system output curves vs time of day if you ask questions if you start a thread in those sections and ask.

__________

You might find it interesting that wall street has gotten heavily involved in turning "15 minute time of use packets" of electricity into a commodity that is traded and gambled on. As a result, the value of these can fluctuate significantly and "demand response" is in fact one of the more common approaches to deal with the gap between supply and demand.

Demand Response is an attempt to alter human behavior by using pricing to deter power use at various times. It can be a small difference, or quite large. Where I live, the price of 1 kW-hr of electricity can vary by nearly 10x, depending on how much of this "human behavior shaping" they are trying to do. Of course the price is the highest when you don't really have a choice but to use it.

 

[HarryN]

As an example, post #163 and on has some example solar output curves.

Socially negative impacts of solar

But - exactly what do you think the terms "virtual power plant" and "consumer side demand response" mean? Turning off a phone charger? Don't forget, batteries are loads. Highly controllable loads. They can be set to charge from the grid as well as discharge to the grid. In essence this is...

diysolarforum.com

and another starting point for info:

Funny story about the east-west panel spread-out idea

OK, to get to the point here you will not get some “spread out of power production” by pointing your panels direct east and west. In summary the sum of the gains in the morning for the east panels plus the sum of the losses in the morning from the west panels equal the same production curve...

diysolarforum.com

 

[NorbH]

Those are not financially viable for their generation alone, the canopy triples the cost or more. So there has to be subsidy or someone willing to pay for the benefit of the parking shade.

Makes sense - This might not always work. In South America, you often have shaded parking where they cover the canopy with some kind of fabric. In that situation, replacing the fabric with panels should be a possibility.

 

[KITROBASKIN]

Consider the big picture, keep learning, ask more questions, and if your convictions actually follow through with meaningful change for the better, well that is wonderful.

Storing energy for off peak, that’s what some here are hinting as a direction for your search.