Dr Strangetroll : or how I learned to stop arguing and be amused by the intransigence

[sshibly]

Deny reality, no problem, das ist gut,
Butts you ain't gonna be around long and you WILL cost us taxpayers a bunch of money trying to keep you alive for an extra 96 hours per protocol.
Most employers stopped offering long term if you don't vax.

 

[brb58]

Oh darn. Someone on the internet disagrees with me.
And thought people cared enough that he posted about it.

LOL....I will disagree with you on most things since you are a confirmed conspiracy theorists.

Hes an internet stalker who doesnt know me or my family.

Is that different than a Gangstalker? Out of curiosity, what was DEW anyway?

 

[Cdkipp]

Here's an interesting statistic for you:

The police are twice as likely to use deadly force apprehending a suspect, if the suspect is white, compared to if the suspect is black.

Cite?

 

[A.Justice]

That is also true.. the far left liberals also tend to use the racist label as a weapon.

Here's an interesting statistic for you:
During the day, black drivers get pulled over at something like 7 times the rate of white drivers.

But at night, black and white drivers get pulled over at the same rate.

Cops can't see the color of the drivers skin at night. Would you still like to talk about the left's racism accusation?

The right wingers like to talk about "Make America Great Again".. and the good-old-days. No surprise there.. they used to hang blacks in the back woods after losing a war to keep them as slaves. And the KKK still exists. White supremacists are so common and proud they hold rallies.

The left labeling some folks as racist is legit. If you don't like it then that says more about you than it does about them.

I was just pointing out that if you switch a few words around, the left and the right both have, more or less, the same complaints about each other. I definitely wasn't trying to start a conversation about the racism that inarguably exists. I've seen your other posts, and I think you and I agree on more things than you realize.

One huge thing that stuck out to me was when you said "All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing". I couldn't agree more, and in my mind (and yours, and probably others), that's what I'm standing against. I believe that people are being taken advantage of, and I don't like that. I tend to believe that most of the people involved in this "debate" probably share a similar moral opinion; they're trying to take a stand for what they believe in. We just happen to believe different sides of the same coin.

I don't think anybody here is trying to maliciously spread false information, on either "side". We all (seem to) have good intentions here. Let's all try and remember that.

 

[Cdkipp]

Here's an interesting statistic for you:

The police are twice as likely to use deadly force apprehending a suspect, if the suspect is white, compared to if the suspect is black.

"We have enough evidence that tells us that action needs to be taken,” says Justin Nix, a criminologist at the University of Nebraska Omaha. “One thousand deaths a year does not have to be normal.” Since Nature reported last September on what the data say about racial bias and police killings, new evidence has continued to support a link. Data from California show that police stopped and used force against Black people disproportionately, compared with other racial groups, in 2018 (see go.nature.com/2bgfrah). A December 2019 paper reported that bias in police administrative records results in many studies underestimating levels of racial bias in policing, or even masking discrimination entirely. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01846-z

 

[Cdkipp]

I was just pointing out that if you switch a few words around, the left and the right both have, more or less, the same complaints about each other. I definitely wasn't trying to start a conversation about the racism that inarguably exists. I've seen your other posts, and I think you and I agree on more things than you realize.

One huge thing that stuck out to me was when you said "All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing". I couldn't agree more, and in my mind (and yours, and probably others), that's what I'm standing against. I believe that people are being taken advantage of, and I don't like that. I tend to believe that most of the people involved in this "debate" probably share a similar moral opinion; they're trying to take a stand for what they believe in. We just happen to believe different sides of the same coin.

I don't think anybody here is trying to maliciously spread false information, on either "side". We all (seem to) have good intentions here. Let's all try and remember that.

BMcl is without a doubt intentionally spreading misinformation. He has repeated links and posts after they have been thoroughly debunked. Just above he says there is a "ton" of evidence HCQ and OIvermecting work, Those are lies.

 

[MurphyGuy]

I was just pointing out that if you switch a few words around, the left and the right both have, more or less, the same complaints about each other. I definitely wasn't trying to start a conversation about the racism that inarguably exists. I've seen your other posts, and I think you and I agree on more things than you realize.

One huge thing that stuck out to me was when you said "All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing". I couldn't agree more, and in my mind (and yours, and probably others), that's what I'm standing against. I believe that people are being taken advantage of, and I don't like that. I tend to believe that most of the people involved in this "debate" probably share a similar moral opinion; they're trying to take a stand for what they believe in. We just happen to believe different sides of the same coin.

We can agree on that... !

We live in a capitalist society so taking advantage of others is pretty much a natural consequence of that philosophy. In the old days, the adage was "The strong survive".. In modern times, the word strong has been replaced with "smart" or "wise".

Honestly, I haven't given it enough thought to determine if that's good or bad..

I don't think anybody here is trying to maliciously spread false information, on either "side". We all (seem to) have good intentions here. Let's all try and remember that.

On that we need to disagree.. respectfully. Some of these guys spread so much obviously false info that I suspect they are being paid. There's a website on the dark web that these people visit. Last one I saw was offering 30 cents per forum posting to push some political garbage. When my browser kept alerting me to malicious scripts, I stopped visiting. Imagine blowing through 30 to 50 posts a day and getting a check at the end of the month for $300 to $400 for doing nothing but sitting on your rear end for a morning coffee while copy-pasting.

I propose that some of these people are not as benign as you suggest.. either that or I'm just old and have gotten pessimistic about people. that's always possible.

 

[A.Justice]

BMcl is without a doubt intentionally spreading misinformation. He has repeated links and posts after they have been thoroughly debunked. Just above he says there is a "ton" of evidence HCQ and OIvermecting work, Those are lies.

I try to stay out of the ivermectin debate, and I really didn't read any of his links. I have absolutely no idea if it does or doesn't help. The only thing I know about it is that it keeps worms out of my dogs.

 

[Hedges]

Thank you.. that proves my point.


As of 2020, white Americans are the racial and ethnic majority, representing 57.8% of the population. Hispanic and Latino Americans (who may belong to any racial group) are the largest ethnic minority, comprising 18.7% of the population, while Black or African Americans are the largest racial minority, making up 12.1%.

The police SHOULD be over 4 times more likely since there is more than 4 times more white people.

I'm not referring to total numbers, but per incident.

Here are the statistics I remember (rattling off from my head, don't feel like trying to track down the references to post.)

A black male in America has 1 chance in 1000 of dying at the hands of police.
A white male, 1 chance in 2000.

62% of robbery committed by blacks
37% of violent crime.
(these two I just looked up)

52% of all suspects apprehended by police are black.
53% of murder arrests. (just looked it up)
30% of prison population.
13% of total population.

Several observations:
rate of apprehension is 4x percent of total population. Rate of death at hands of police is 2x (compared to whites).
While I don't have all the data for non-hispanic whites, it is these two figures that leads me to say police are twice as likely to use deadly force when suspect is white.

I also note that rate of apprehension (may or may not be) somewhat below rate of committing crime, but nearly 2x the fraction of prison population.
This suggests a disproportionate number of black suspects apprehended are innocent.

My theory (don't have enough information to confirm or refute):
Innocent people don't commit a violent assault against police when being arrested, and don't brandish a weapon.
Police use of deadly force is primarily in response to violence or threats.
Therefore, with lower percentage of blacks apprehended by police being guilty of the crime, lower percentage fight back, and death rate is lower.
But larger total number of apprehensions results in larger total death rate, which is pretty close to 30%/13%


And by the way, blacks are the victims of about 50% of all gun homicides.
Disproportionately affected by the "war on crime", but also primary beneficiary of the reduced crime rate.

Single statistics quoted without context can impugn the motives and behavior of others.
There are some major issues to be addressed, and activists aren't helping.

 

[Hedges]

Cite?

See my calculation/estimate in previous post.

 

[Batvette]

since you are a confirmed conspiracy theorists.

Now someone lacking elementary school English composition skills disagrees with me. Whoopie!
Back on topic Bradley (or whatever his real name is, as if it matters) claims to be a republican who so disliked Donald Trump that he voted for Biden/Harris even though their disastrous policies were well stated during the campaign. Like Harris claiming she would stop arresting people at the border and welcome them with open arms instead. Biden inviting them to come here. Promising to end the use of fossil fuels then passing executive orders his first week that lead to fuel prices soaring a dollar a gallon which resulted in double digit inflation across the board. Leaving hundreds of Americans behind in Afghanistan, bowing to Taliban orders in typical democrat cut and run command of the military. No republican I know would ever support such irresponsible policies, that makes him completely stupid or a liar. All the dislike in the world for a candidates personality does not rationalize changing your lifelong ideologies and supporting the other side. So of course he keeps changing the subject.
You can say what the hell you want about me but you wont see me posting lies to troll people on the internet.

 

[Hedges]

Data from California show that police stopped and used force against Black people disproportionately, compared with other racial groups, in 2018 (see go.nature.com/2bgfrah).

Inequality in outcome.
The question is, was there an inequality in treatment of a particular conduct?
Was there inequality in conduct?

Data also shows force disproportional used by people, depending on race:

File:USA Homicide Offending Rates By Race.png - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Was police conduct in response to violence? Or simply due to people's race?


There are some major issues in crime and law enforcement in the US.
Statistics present uncomfortable truths.
People presenting half-truths aren't looking for a viable solution.
There are a number of possible underlying causes, and various attempts to address, but nothing satisfactory yet.

 

[A.Justice]

I'm not referring to total numbers, but per incident.

Here are the statistics I remember (rattling off from my head, don't feel like trying to track down the references to post.)

A black male in America has 1 chance in 1000 of dying at the hands of police.
A white male, 1 chance in 2000.

62% of robbery committed by blacks
37% of violent crime.
(these two I just looked up)

52% of all suspects apprehended by police are black.
53% of murder arrests. (just looked it up)
30% of prison population.
13% of total population.

Several observations:
rate of apprehension is 4x percent of total population. Rate of death at hands of police is 2x (compared to whites).
While I don't have all the data for non-hispanic whites, it is these two figures that leads me to say police are twice as likely to use deadly force when suspect is white.

I also note that rate of apprehension (may or may not be) somewhat below rate of committing crime, but nearly 2x the fraction of prison population.
This suggests a disproportionate number of black suspects apprehended are innocent.

My theory (don't have enough information to confirm or refute):
Innocent people don't commit a violent assault against police when being arrested, and don't brandish a weapon.
Police use of deadly force is primarily in response to violence or threats.
Therefore, with lower percentage of blacks apprehended by police being guilty of the crime, lower percentage fight back, and death rate is lower.
But larger total number of apprehensions results in larger total death rate, which is pretty close to 30%/13%


And by the way, blacks are the victims of about 50% of all gun homicides.
Disproportionately affected by the "war on crime", but also primary beneficiary of the reduced crime rate.

Single statistics quoted without context can impugn the motives and behavior of others.
There are some major issues to be addressed, and activists aren't helping.

I follow a couple of cops on YouTube and more than one of them has said something about officers hesitation to use force on a minority, in today's world. They're scared of lawsuits and accusations of racism. Nobody wants to end up on the front page of the newspaper for "killing of an unarmed black man by racist white cop". The court of public opinion will hang you, even if you're found innocent.

 

[Batvette]

"We have enough evidence that tells us that action needs to be taken,” says Justin Nix, a criminologist at the University of Nebraska Omaha. “One thousand deaths a year does not have to be normal.” Since Nature reported last September on what the data say about racial bias and police killings, new evidence has continued to support a link. Data from California show that police stopped and used force against Black people disproportionately, compared with other racial groups, in 2018 (see go.nature.com/2bgfrah). A December 2019 paper reported that bias in police administrative records results in many studies underestimating levels of racial bias in policing, or even masking discrimination entirely. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01846-z

According to the DOJ black people commit violent crimes at 8x the rate of whites. It stands to reason that they might see higher arrest, incarceration, and death rates by police.
Since they are ingrained from childhood with the idea that police are racist it also stands to reason they are more likely to resist arrest and fight back. Im surprised there arent a lot more blacks killed by police. Look at the guy in Kenosha, what was he doing when he got shot? What was George Floyd doing? What was the guy in St. Louis doing? He just robbed a store then when a cop stops him he fights him and goes for his gun?
And why is Trayvon Martin dead? Because he was walking to 7/11? No, because he thought it was a good idea to go full melee attack on a neighborhood watch who was just looking at a stranger in his community.
Some shootings are unwarranted but white people generally dont resist with such frequency.
Studies rarely include such common sense details.

 

[MurphyGuy]

I'm not referring to total numbers, but per incident.

Here are the statistics I remember (rattling off from my head, don't feel like trying to track down the references to post.)

A black male in America has 1 chance in 1000 of dying at the hands of police.
A white male, 1 chance in 2000.

62% of robbery committed by blacks
37% of violent crime.
(these two I just looked up)

52% of all suspects apprehended by police are black.
53% of murder arrests. (just looked it up)
30% of prison population.
13% of total population.

Several observations:
rate of apprehension is 4x percent of total population. Rate of death at hands of police is 2x (compared to whites).
While I don't have all the data for non-hispanic whites, it is these two figures that leads me to say police are twice as likely to use deadly force when suspect is white.

I also note that rate of apprehension (may or may not be) somewhat below rate of committing crime, but nearly 2x the fraction of prison population.
This suggests a disproportionate number of black suspects apprehended are innocent.

My theory (don't have enough information to confirm or refute):
Innocent people don't commit a violent assault against police when being arrested, and don't brandish a weapon.
Police use of deadly force is primarily in response to violence or threats.
Therefore, with lower percentage of blacks apprehended by police being guilty of the crime, lower percentage fight back, and death rate is lower.
But larger total number of apprehensions results in larger total death rate, which is pretty close to 30%/13%


And by the way, blacks are the victims of about 50% of all gun homicides.
Disproportionately affected by the "war on crime", but also primary beneficiary of the reduced crime rate.

Single statistics quoted without context can impugn the motives and behavior of others.
There are some major issues to be addressed, and activists aren't helping.

I looked into this deeply a few years back.. Agreeing with your "single statistics" comment, some of the statistics, while accurate, do not account for external influences. Population density, poverty, etc.. Even culture was part of the questionable effects.

There is absolutely no doubt that the police are racist and use racial profiling. The statistics are clear as glass concerning that point.

As for our prison population, 99.97% are religious, with only 0.03% claiming non religious. These statistics are in question however so I need to point that out as well.

There is no doubt that racism is alive and well in the USA, and that's fine, freedom and liberties and all that... right up until the government is found guilty of it, then its a problem.

One other observation in this whole thing, the racial conversation concerning the police, criminal statistics, etc, never seems to account for all the white collar crime. That makes sense if we're just talking about violence, but doesn't hold water if we start reviewing overall prison statistics and other criminal issues.

I am not educated enough in these subjects to be any kind of expert, so I'm relegated to looking for the proverbial smoking gun to form an opinion. And on that note, the vehicle stops are a smoking gun as they are immune from all other statistical considerations.

 

[Batvette]

One need only look at that 8x violent crime rate to see it more than cancels the 6x minority factor.
Remember violent crimes need a victim to press charges and testify, so it cant be dismissed as racial profiling, stops for broken tail lights, etc.
Tied to the topic, when much of the country was in the midst of lockdowns throngs of young people masked and unmasked gathered in crowds to protest, riot, loot, and arson. Then took the virus home to mom, dad, grandma and grandpa.
I didnt see much concern about the pandemic then by the people sympathizing with BLM yet those are the people who support vaccine mandates and firings of workers who refuse to comply.
(I am not anti vax but believe a choice is fair)
This party also cited Trumps covid response in the election. What was the effect of the protests? Obviously huge.

 

[MurphyGuy]

I follow a couple of cops on YouTube and more than one of them has said something about officers hesitation to use force on a minority, in today's world. They're scared of lawsuits and accusations of racism. Nobody wants to end up on the front page of the newspaper for "killing of an unarmed black man by racist white cop". The court of public opinion will hang you, even if you're found innocent.

Translation: The riots and media coverage is having a positive effect.

Did I get that right?

 

[MurphyGuy]

One need only look at that 8x violent crime rate to see it more than cancels the 6x minority factor.
Remember violent crimes need a victim to press charges and testify, so it cant be dismissed as racial profiling, stops for broken tail lights, etc.

NOPE, that's not true at all.

 

[Batvette]

Deny reality, no problem, das ist gut,
Butts you ain't gonna be around long and you WILL cost us taxpayers a bunch of money trying to keep you alive for an extra 96 hours per protocol.
Most employers stopped offering long term if you don't vax.

Even anti vaxxers pay into the health care system, if you want to cite cost to the system to dictate behavior thats a huge can of worms that will bring up overeating, alcohol, adreneline junkies, athletes etc. (Why should my tax dollars pay for ACL reconstruction because your kid wants to be a football star? Why should my tax dollars pay for 6 months recuperation in a hospital when freestyle motocross daredevils dont nail that double backflip?) Heres a piece on Travis Pastrana, whose had over 60 broken bones, 15 knee surgeries, 25 concussions... and planted a triple back flip.

the cost of putting grampa on a ventilator for a few days is nothing.

 

[A.Justice]

Translation: The riots and media coverage is having a positive effect.

Did I get that right?

In some cases, absolutely. In other cases, hesitation can cost a life.

I'm a felon, you don't have to convince me that law enforcement isn't your friend. I've personally seen police, judges, prosecutors, and attorneys, lie under oath. I always compare the legal system to a rooster; both of them will happily fu*k anybody they see.