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Three AC units in one house - How to stop them from turning on all at once

BlueMarblePA

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I have a 4000 sq ft home, and I diy self installed 9.8kw panels on the roof (Solaredge7600) and 5.6kw panels on the ground (Solark 15k) as well as 20kwh Pytes batteries. I have three 2 ton AC units in different zones. I want to install three Microair soft starts, but I also want to know if there is a way for three thermostats to talk to each other, so that they don't turn on at the same time.

Does anybody know if there is a smart thermostat system that can do this?
 
Is this about the start inrush, that is, they can all be on at the same time as long as they don't start at the same time? What is the minimum time between starts?

Or is this about load limiting, that is, keeping all three from running at the same time?

Those are different questions.

Further, if it is about load limiting, do you want first come first served, or fixed priority?

I don't have any simple solutions for any of the above, but knowing what the goals are can help clarify the options.

Mike C.
 
These are great questions.
I only installed the solark 15k in December, and so I never thought to measure inrush and current during the summer.
My thought is that I don't want all three air conditioners to run at the same time. I would be okay for any two of them to run at the same time. However, this is not backed up by any specific data. Do I need to measure first?
I think fixed priority makes sense to me.
 
I think fixed priority makes sense to me.
Assuming you have standard 24 VAC discrete thermostat controls (not RS-485 communicating ones), then:

Divide your units into #1, #2, and #3 priority. You need a relay that closes when #1 turns on, another relay that closes when #2 turns on. Then run #3 turn on signal in parallel through the NC contacts of both relays. If at least one of them is NOT active, then #3 unit can run. As soon as both #1 and #2 are active, the signal has no path to the #3 unit.

This simple system has some gotchas, however. Most modern systems don't stop the compressor immediately when the signal goes away. It could be a few seconds lag for #3 to shutoff. That is exactly when you have 2 units on and the third starting, worst case scenario.

Also, compressors don't like to be quickly restarted. If #1 is running, #3 is running, the #2 starts, #3 drops, then #1 stops, #3 starts again too quickly. Most modern system have timer interlocks to prevent this, however.

The real way to solve this is to run all three units to some intelligent controller, like a PLC, and program it with any desired method to keep things working. This can also prevent the starting of two units at the same time, something you would like to avoid.

A better choice might be this:

1709929908102.png
Key feature, optoisolated inputs since you can't be sure your units all share the same ground/neutral for the low volts thermostat wires. You run the controls into the optoisolated inputs, then the relays decide to pass them on or not.

Bonus point, make the relays pass the signals on the NC terminals (energize relay to NOT pass controls). That way, is the system loses power, it defaults to passing controls to the units so you have some HVAC workable. Or you can make some units default on during outage, and one not, just to handle the failure case. You choose by using NC or NO terminals and whether the relay energizes to be on or off.

In normal operation, relays are in the "off" state (which means some may be energized). You watch the inputs every 5 seconds. If a unit wants service, switch its relay and the unit turns on. Next 5 seconds another unit might service, you can switch its relay. When the third shows up, do nothing, you are maxed out. When a unit doesn't want power, switch its relay to shut it off. Next 5 seconds you can start the third one. In this way, only one thing can happen every 5 seconds which avoids two starting at once, and you can control how many and in what priority they start, and even control minimum off times for compressor health.

The Pi could also do Solar Assistant at the same time, of you want, or anything else it can do since monitoring HVAC inputs is rather trivial effort. You can also log your AC run times and patterns if you show choose.

If you need more relays or inputs, this board can be stacked to get you more of them. This may be an issue if you have two stage cooling, which then means you could run all three in low stage if desired and only have to lock one out in high stage.

You do need to get down and dirty with coding it, however. Python is probably the best way.

Mike C.
 
Look up "load controller".
How will that prevent simultaneous starting of two HVACs units?

How will that allow all three to operate but not at the same time?

How will it know what units to enable based on thermostat requests?

Genuine questions, hoping it does do the above.

Mike C.
 
Just don't synchronize the time schedules. Start is like 2 seconds max so little chance of two starting together let alone all three.
 
How will that prevent simultaneous starting of two HVACs units?
If one calls for power, it disconnects the others until there is enough power for them.

How will that allow all three to operate but not at the same time?

How will it know what units to enable based on thermostat requests?

it waits for one to call for power.
 
If one calls for power, it disconnects the others until there is enough power for them.
If you do that for my GSHP (Waterfurnace series 5), it goes through a 2 minute boot up process to be sure the compressor wasn't just on (protects against a power induced short cycle). This power on delay will mess with your thermostat which might go to second stage sensing no response (lack of dT/dt) and thus waste energy.

When you shut off power to the unit rudely, that denies it the spool down and purge cycle of the fan as well.

it waits for one to call for power.
So the load controller is tied to the thermostats?

Oh, also, most thermostat 24 VAC transformers are powered from the units themselves, so depowering them turns off the thermostat.

I think this problem is more cleanly solved at the control level instead of at the power level. I'd be very curious what someone comes up with and how well it works.

Mike C.
 
Just get programmable thermostats and schedule so that only one can run at a time.

Like 1 on per hour every 3 hours.


Hard to recommend anything more complex without knowing the criteria you want to use to control them.
 
Like 1 on per hour every 3 hours.
So your HVAC units are 3 times as large as they need to be such that you can only use them 33% of the time?

If they were smaller, then they could run all the time together without any fancy controls.

This can also drive up energy usage. If you have multiple stage units, the thermostat being so far off set point can cause it to run at a higher output that is less efficient. HVAC units works best operating for long periods at less than max output versus short periods at max output.

Keeping all the thermostats time synced and programmed out of phase sounds like an on going issue, too.

Your energy demand will be highest at the start of every hour this way making it not as uniform as it could be. More uniform is usually better.

This is not a simple problem to do well.

Mike C.
 
So your HVAC units are 3 times as large as they need to be such that you can only use them 33% of the time?

If they were smaller, then they could run all the time together without any fancy controls.

This can also drive up energy usage. If you have multiple stage units, the thermostat being so far off set point can cause it to run at a higher output that is less efficient. HVAC units works best operating for long periods at less than max output versus short periods at max output.

Keeping all the thermostats time synced and programmed out of phase sounds like an on going issue, too.

Your energy demand will be highest at the start of every hour this way making it not as uniform as it could be. More uniform is usually better.

This is not a simple problem to do well.

Mike C.

I'm not the op
 
This is not a simple problem to do well.
Indeed. I’ve got inverter-style mini-splits and they don’t have inrush currents (they start off around 5-600W and taper off to 2-300). I do have them on Shelly Pro 1 PM devices for monitoring and control, so I _could_ power them on/off in some sequence, but getting it right would be fiddly.

If there’s a power failure they might all start simultaneously after the standard timeout delay, but I have mine lockout if they see power fluctuations (fail, over or under voltage, frequency, overcurrent), so they need manual restart anyway, and that’s never simultaneous.

Have you measured the inrush current, and is the simultaneous start actually a problem with the surge rating of your inverter?
 
If you do that for my GSHP (Waterfurnace series 5), it goes through a 2 minute boot up process to be sure the compressor wasn't just on (protects against a power induced short cycle). This power on delay will mess with your thermostat which might go to second stage sensing no response (lack of dT/dt) and thus waste energy.

When you are running off grid, you do the best you can. Btw: you will have this problem with any solution other than an integrated hvac control system that can take input from multiple thermostats and control multiple hvac units.

When you shut off power to the unit rudely, that denies it the spool down and purge cycle of the fan as well.

Assuming they have the same priority, it doesn't cut power to a running load. It stops something else from starting.

So the load controller is tied to the thermostats?

no. It is tied to the ac power.

Generac makes a load controller that controls the hvac using thermostat lines for the reason you have mentioned. Plus it is easier to switch 20v lines vs 240v lines. Don't know if the system works with non-generac equipment.

Oh, also, most thermostat 24 VAC transformers are powered from the units themselves, so depowering them turns off the thermostat.
Unless the thermostat has a battery.

I think this problem is more cleanly solved at the control level instead of at the power level. I'd be very curious what someone comes up with and how well it works.

Mike C.
Agreed (generac solution). Don't know if someone makes it.
 
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Btw: you will have this problem with any solution other than an integrated hvac control system that can take input from multiple thermostats and control multiple hvac units.
Exactly. The controller (whatever it is, I'd use a Raspberry Pi, but that's my hammer) needs to know if a unit is calling for cooling ("I'd like to start"), and if it's actually running, and be able to control the operation ("it's safe to run/continue to run") of all three units simultaneously.

Not every HVAC unit has that kind of interface (you need more than just intercepting the thermostat wiring), and then you probably need a bespoke control system, and the whole project quickly spools out of control. [Trust me, it'll fail when you are away and SWMBO will not be pleased, go ahead and ask me how I know this 8*]

Much simpler to use COTS stuff, inverter HVAC equipment that doesn't have startup surges, solar inverters that can handle the load, etc.
 
Not every HVAC unit has that kind of interface (you need more than just intercepting the thermostat wiring)
You really don't.

You have the demand request through the thermostat wiring so you can make intelligent decisions on who to run and when. Leaving the VAC on for the units avoids any start up delays, keeps thermostats powered, allows for fan purge, etc.

The Pi add on that gives you four optoisolated inputs and 4 relays would do this very nicely. You can add more units as you see fit to track more signals.

Many modern HAVC units log power ups and downs, too, so you can blow out their log file depth with constant AC removal. It is just rude to control it that way and may lead to equipment life time issues.

Much simpler to use COTS stuff, inverter HVAC equipment that doesn't have startup surges, solar inverters that can handle the load, etc.
Provisioning a larger inverter and other fixes solves this, but comes at the expense of money to buy them and also idle usage and other efficiency hits.

Mike C.
 
Wow. This is an amazing discussion and above my head. I spent a lot of time learning solar and batteries! Not I have to do the same for hvac and raspberry pi and python and other things. I guess I was hoping there was some off the shelf Honeywell smart thermostat that could do this?
 
This is midlevel home automation. I don't think you'll find thermostats that, ON THEIR OWN, will talk to each other and figure this out. But it can almost certainly be done without too much difficulty if you put an inexpensive home automation controller (often called a "hub") into the mix, that speaks to a connected thermostat. And while you'll need to become familiar with that controller's "rules" system, that's normally a lot easier than learning to use a Raspberry Pi or other device that requires actual coding abilities.

Personally, I use Hubitat Elevation home automation hubs in 4 different buildings spread across two locations. See https://hubitat.com. They'll work with Ecobee thermostats, for example, or a variety of thermostats that communicate using Z-wave, Zigbee, or (a recent addition) Matter communication. Very active, helpful user forum (much like this one) and a solid developer community that writes apps for the hub for others to use. Basically, you can set things up so that, for example, if AC 1 or AC 2 is running, don't turn on AC 3, etc. It will take a little bit of time and money to get to this point, but it should be much easier than the RPi/true coding route. Anyway, there's my two cents of input.
 
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