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Top balance cutoff current?

I am doing a similar test with EBC-A20 (5A max in charge mode). Just a single EVE 280Ah cell, should I set the cutoff current to 5A so it cuts off immediately on reaching 3.65V?
But then if you charge with a bigger EBC-A40L at 40A, when you reach 3.65V and you've set 14A cutoff current, that means you're allowing to absorb a bit while the current drops from 40A to 14A. In my case there won't be such thing as I'll immediately cut off upon reaching 3.65V.
Does it makes any difference?

In this video Andy set cutoff current to 1A for 100Ah cell

I guess it depends if you are doing a test or top balancing.
I asked specifically about top balancing, where the general opinion is that you should charge until the current drops to 0A (whatever 0 means)

I ended up charging the first set of 8 cells in parallel until the current dropped to 0.8A, then I was tired of waiting and stopped it. The voltage stayed at 3.65V for a few minutes and then started to decrease slowly; after 7-8 hours it was stabilised at 3.51-3.52V
I have now done the same on the second set of 8 cells and I’m waiting for them to also drop down to 3.52V before assembling them in series with BMS
 
I totally agree with you, but this time I’ve done it this way
Have you brought this up with the admin, since there is a pinned ‘how to top balance’ guide that uses a different theory?
After you.
 
I guess it depends if you are doing a test or top balancing.
I asked specifically about top balancing, where the general opinion is that you should charge until the current drops to 0A (whatever 0 means)
Well, for now I am doing a capacity test, cause one of my new cells in 12V bank charged quicker than the other ones, though they started at a very close to each other voltage (definitely less than 0.015V difference). I was doing "pre-balancing", that's why connected them in series.
So I decided to make a capacity test of this cell. I disconnected it from the bank and just to be sure charged it at 3.65 with power supply for a few hours. The current dropped to like 0.050A when I disconnected it.
The capacity test shown 277.6Ah out of 280Ah specified, which I think is fine, so I will test the other cells.
Anyways, now I want to also make a charge test for this cell, do you think I coul just set like 1A? Or maybe 3 or 5?
 
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I am doing a similar test with EBC-A20 (5A max in charge mode). Just a single EVE 280Ah cell, should I set the cutoff current to 5A so it cuts off immediately on reaching 3.65V?
But then if you charge with a bigger EBC-A40L at 40A, when you reach 3.65V and you've set 14A cutoff current, that means you're allowing to absorb a bit while the current drops from 40A to 14A. In my case there won't be such thing as I'll immediately cut off upon reaching 3.65V.
Does it makes any difference?

The EBC has sense leads which means it measures voltage at the battery terminals.
In order to charge a battery to 3.65 volts as measured at the terminals you need over-potential at the charger.
To have tail current at 3.65 volts as measured at the battery terminals then you need even more over-potential.
 
The EBC has sense leads which means it measures voltage at the battery terminals.
In order to charge a battery to 3.65 volts as measured at the terminals you need over-potential at the charger.
To have tail current at 3.65 volts as measured at the battery terminals then you need even more over-potential.
But the goal is not to make 3.65V at the terminals. It is to make a battery full.
You can accomplish it even by charging at 3.4V, the only question is time. Eventually it will become 100% charged.
So setting 3.65V CV is fine, it will definitely charge a battery to 100%. When it stops absorbing the current - it is charged.
At least that's Andy's conclusion after his set of tests.
 
So the cells that I top balanced yesterday (finished about 21 hours ago) are between 3.49 and 3.50; the ones that finished top balancing about 7 hours ago are at 3.535V); can I already put them in series or do I have to wait for the most recently balanced ones to approach the voltage of the others (which are also descreasing, even if slowlier)?
 
So the cells that I top balanced yesterday (finished about 21 hours ago) are between 3.49 and 3.50; the ones that finished top balancing about 7 hours ago are at 3.535V); can I already put them in series or do I have to wait for the most recently balanced ones to approach the voltage of the others (which are also descreasing, even if slowlier)?
I had the same thing yesterday and after hooking everything back up said to myself do I want to do this all again when it starts drifting. Take the few minutes now and do it right, it's worth the work, leaving a few slightly out is like leaving a few weeds in the garden, it's only going to expedite the need to weed sooner.

See my update at the bottom of this post: https://diysolarforum.com/threads/top-balance-cutoff-current.53960/post-690020

If you need any encouragement, look at the midpoint voltage deviation graphs in that post and then look at this one from today. :)

1674516481636.png
Used the microwave for dinner, 35 amps draw and hardly made a difference to the midpoint deviation, this is what being OCD about being balance does for you. :)

1674520543693.png
 
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I totally agree with you, but this time I’ve done it this way
Have you brought this up with the admin, since there is a pinned ‘how to top balance’ guide that uses a different theory?
Yes, i have. You’ll notice the author of that post no longer frequents this forum.

The funny thing is that nobody would recommend connecting cells of significantly different states of charge in parallel, and nobody would recommend holding a LiFePO4 cell at a fully charged voltage.

Yet plenty of people think it’s a good idea to combine those two bad ideas.
 
Yes, i have. You’ll notice the author of that post no longer frequents this forum.

Don't be so sure about that... ?

The funny thing is that nobody would recommend connecting cells of significantly different states of charge in parallel,

What if it's done, and current is within rated spec? I've done it. You even liked that post. ?

Off grid garage demonstrated that 0% and 100% SoC 280ah cells will not push > 0.5C for very long. How much will there by with a simple 0.05V difference in cells that are only 12% apart?

and nobody would recommend holding a LiFePO4 cell at a fully charged voltage.

Except for Battleborn when instructing a customer to hold a battery at 14.6V for 20-30 minutes per string in parallel with no qualification on current. Few charge at 0.5C, so lower current charges require less absorption. I'm pretty confident that these scenarios often result in charges tapering to < 0.05C. Additionally, horribly imbalanced BB with a little over 50% capacity can be restored to > 90% capacity by holding at 14.2V+ for a week. I can't imagine that one or more cells weren't held at true 100% for that entire duration. Sure, plating may have occurred, but is it really that much of a problem? Unfortunately, we don't know the end result as that user hasn't returned.

Weren't the first iteration of these cells originally ran from 4.2 to 2.0V to extract that extra few %? Does holding a cell at 3.65V really do that much harm by comparison?

Yet plenty of people think it’s a good idea to combine those two bad ideas.

Lots of options between always and never and understanding the risks, limitations and benefits.

I have experience with NMC cells showing across the board improvement with balance charges to 4.20V down to .002C. Repeated charges saw IR cut to 1/3 the initial value and 2-3% total capacity gains. Sure. Maybe I'm doing something that harms the cells, but they're better than they were, and they will never be charged this aggressively again in service.

Top balancing may not be a best practice, but in this world of gray market cells, it's mandatory in many cases. My 9 EVE cells were received at between 28 and 40% SoC (yes, I discharged as-received to 2.5V to measure). That's a substantial deviation that would have been tedious to deal with, though, to your point, some of the active balancers would have made it bearable. A JK would have taken at least 22 hours of continuous 2A balancing assuming perfect transfer efficiency, and many cells would have had to be maintained at 3.65V to make that happen.

It's worth mentioning that the top balancing guide instructs one to charge in series to BMS cut-off discharge. If one can extract rated capacity from the battery, no top balance is necessary.
 
Except for Battleborn when instructing a customer to hold a battery at 14.6V for 20-30 minutes per string in parallel with no qualification on current. Few charge at 0.5C, so lower current charges require less absorption. I'm pretty confident that these scenarios often result in charges tapering to < 0.05C. Additionally, horribly imbalanced BB with a little over 50% capacity can be restored to > 90% capacity by holding at 14.2V+ for a week. I can't imagine that one or more cells weren't held at true 100% for that entire duration. Sure, plating may have occurred, but is it really that much of a problem? Unfortunately, we don't know the end result as that user hasn't returned.
EXACTLY.... it was so uncomfortable absorbing my 16 BattleBorns off and on all day yesterday at 14.4-14.6. I know they were not only out of balance with each other but internally so gave them a good long absorb but I'd just watched several of Andy's videos talking about not needing to go to 3.65 and even lower so it was hard to watch. My plan is to never have them above 14.2 and then once a month do a good long soak at 14.4 or .6 to get them internally back inline.
 
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