Using latest MinnKota charger with automatic BMS controller on Ghost (also ah capacity suggestion please)

[RzrProR]

Thank you all for this forum; what a blessing. My main concerns are as follows as I have this charger and trolling motor yet have not purchased the batteries needed (I will be starting out at 24V then possibly switching to 36V if needed as this brushless motor allows):
1) Will this charger, which somehow attempts to try and try again to 'wake up' uncooperative BMS issues, *not play nice* with LiP04 batteries using their own 'way' of solving issues such as low temperature? Under 32F will be my main concern yet I am right on the edge of this ever becoming an issue and wonder if external RV tank heatersheaters such as these would work inside the battery box instead of built in battery heaters.
2) Even though this is a 15A charger, I will be lucky to get that full amperage out of the household circuit used (this unit has low voltage compensation which I 'hope' helps here). Am I stuck with (2) or (someday) (3) 100ah capacity batteries in series versus the higher ah capacity models? How much trolling motor specific benefit is actually gained as you step up in ah rating by 100 ah(s) at a time? I have a Sterling 60Ah charger as well https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0658/7343/files/PCU_Handbook_2021_rewrite_New.pdf?v=1641915982
yet I don't have two power sources at the dock and am already am trying to figure out how to integrate another (3) bank MinnKota charger for the other batteries on board (yeah, I need more power, period). board-digital-chargers
3) I am probably going go with either the 12V Chins, SOKs or Battle Borns as recommended here. Chins seems to be at least 'somewhat' marine grade in all models (they claim IP65) . SOK only has that one 200ah model and Battle Born enclosures are apparently not an issue. Am I somewhere in the ballpark in terms of selecting the best near or budget grade half way decent quality grade out there right now?

Again, thank you so much for this forum and definitely the YouTube channel. I'll tackle solar next and am so glad that I didn't years ago with the prices where they are at now (I'm old and these paybacks now are frankly unbelievable).

Latest model Minkota Model MK460 PCL 4 bank charger overview/specs:

https://minnkotamotors.johnsonoutdoors.com/battery-chargers/board-precision-chargers?id=30616

MK460PCL manual: https://minnkotamotors.johnsonoutdo...202.154594191.1645315817-327411339.1644851392

 

[12VoltInstalls]

am probably going go with either the 12V Chins, SOKs or Battle Borns as recommended here. Chins seems to be at least 'somewhat' marine grade in all models (they claim IP65) . SOK only has that one 200ah model and Battle Born enclosures are apparently not an issue.

Will tested that SOK and another brand recently iirc. Marine rated. I’d probably spend there unless you want to feel more secure with battlborn but unsure of the cost difference.

Discharging below 32*F is usually ok, it’s charging below freezing that is the problem for LiFePo

 

[RzrProR]

Will tested that SOK and another brand recently iirc. Marine rated. I’d probably spend there unless you want to feel more secure with battlborn but unsure of the cost difference.

Discharging below 32*F is usually ok, it’s charging below freezing that is the problem for LiFePo

Thank you for the help and yes, I am putting all of my faith in Will, those same videos and his tests of the only reasonably priced batteries that I know about and are thus considering. What I am afraid of is this beyond picking the wrong ah rating for both my motor and charger: This new charger does not force one to mess with the BMA when there is a problem. it continually tries to fix the BMS issue. On the flip side, these batteries seem to be solving their own problems 'internally' which (I'm guessing) may just conflict with the charger's efforts. I'm especially concerned given that the charger would control the power needed to activate any internal battery heater coupled with the battery's willingness to 'accept help' given its own BMS idiosyncrasies.
I'm beginning to feel that it is a safer bet communication-wise to just purchase the plain Jane versions and forget about heaters/bluetooth and much more inexpensively figure temperature charging issues out myself. Now if I could only figure out the wide range of ah ratings; their relation to my fairly efficient brushless motor and if this charger would do a good job of charging all of them whether I selected 200-300 ah batteries or not (versus 100ah) ...?

 

[RzrProR]

Here was the only trolling motor even halfway close to being available right now which I could find. The supply crisis for this stuff is killing these manufacturers and especially those such as MinnKota leading the market with outdated (brushed versus brushless) technology to boot:

https://softwaredownloads.navico.com/Lowrance/FTP/Lowrance_Software%20-%20Copy/documents/Ghost-series_OM_EN_988-12450-005_w.pdf

 

[12VoltInstalls]

MinnKota leading the market with outdated (brushed versus brushless) technology to boot:

Brushless is ‘new’ and cool. But it’s not the end-all. Brushless cordless tools for example are finicky in cold or subfreezing temps.
Brush motors are not outdated just like lead batteries aren’t outdated. They are merely older technology that served well for a hundred years. The new stuff obviously has a lot of advantages but they ain’t the end-all - yet. You select what works for your situation, finances, and needs.

 

[cobratom]

Brushless is ‘new’ and cool. But it’s not the end-all. Brushless cordless tools for example are finicky in cold or subfreezing temps.
Brush motors are not outdated just like lead batteries aren’t outdated. They are merely older technology that served well for a hundred years. The new stuff obviously has a lot of advantages but they ain’t the end-all - yet. You select what works for your situation, finances, and needs.

Brush motors are most certainly outdated. Brushless motors have only been limited by their overall cost and complexity of the control circuit which has gone down tremendously over the last 10 years.

The reality is the instant available torque of a brushless motor is very difficult for a brushed motor to compete with as it would have to be substantially larger in size, and it would produce significantly more heat as a byproduct.

Brushless motors in a trolling application are perfect. Infinite speed settings, high torque, meaning a trolling motor can be made much more compact but handle a larger vessel and less heat output all while being at the bare minimum 15% more efficient on your battery.

 

[RzrProR]

Brushless motors in a trolling application are perfect. Infinite speed settings, high torque, meaning a trolling motor can be made much more compact but handle a larger vessel and less heat output all while being at the bare minimum 15% more efficient on your battery.

Ghost marketing:​

Zoom from spot to spot or zip across the cove with up to 25-percent more thrust than competing models. Ghost’s brushless motor also delivers 60-percent better run-time efficiency, so you can enjoy the best top-end speed and acceleration without sacrificing battery life. Stay out later and run it harder – you will fish longer with Ghost.

It's hard to imagine 60%...yet if even half or half of that (cobratom above) is the reality, my load and subsequent battery purchase requirements would make me happy.
Anyone have any idea about 100 vs 200 vs 300 ah batteries in series (24V or 36V) and my true needs/charging requirements outlined above in relation to these newer BMS focused LIP04 chargers? Thank you!

 

[cobratom]

Ghost marketing:​

Zoom from spot to spot or zip across the cove with up to 25-percent more thrust than competing models. Ghost’s brushless motor also delivers 60-percent better run-time efficiency, so you can enjoy the best top-end speed and acceleration without sacrificing battery life. Stay out later and run it harder – you will fish longer with Ghost.

It's hard to imagine 60%...yet if even half or half of that (cobratom above) is the reality, my load and subsequent battery purchase requirements would make me happy.
Anyone have any idea about 100 vs 200 vs 300 ah batteries in series (24V or 36V) and my true needs/charging requirements outlined above in relation to these newer BMS focused LIP04 chargers? Thank you!

So it is possible for sure. The reality is brushed motors are generally designed for a single constant speed and have a higher internal resistance (brushes), (field windings) which all translate to a loss of energy (as its turned into heat). 60% more efficient across a RPM range could very much be possible.
60% more efficient on the same boat, same conditions, same speed and both motors running full out, most likely not.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

Brush motors are most certainly outdated.

Okie dokie you must be right

hard to imagine 60%...yet if even half or half of that (cobratom above) is the reality, my load and subsequent battery purchase requirements would make me happy.

60% more efficient across a RPM range could very much be possible.

LOL ?

25-percent more thrust than competing models.

If they were competing they’d be closer than 25%
Upgrade-itis money grab like your phone

 

[cobratom]

Okie dokie you must be right


LOL ?

If they were competing they’d be closer than 25%
Upgrade-itis money grab like your phone

Hey superstar. Name a single battery reliant industry that has not moved away from brushed DC motors.
Forklifts. 10+years now
Golf Carts 5+ years now
Hobby motors/drones etc. 15+ years
production ev's - since they became a real replacement contender

If everyone is moving away from it... Its simply outdated

 

[12VoltInstalls]

f everyone is moving away from it... Its simply outdated

In your opinion.
As brushless becomes more mainstream the brush motor stuff didn’t get a memo to stop working.

“Brushless” isn’t anything new, actually.
Induction motors are just…brushless.

What gets me is this odd phenomenon over the last 20 years where people think carburetors don’t work, lead acid batteries are useless, and new-tech motors make brushed motors obsolete.

There’s no doubt the tech has come a long way; basically it’s what made electric cars commercially feasible.

In this post the ponderings of minnkota brush VS not brushed came up. Minnkota brush motors didn’t get the memo: they still work pretty well, and all the old minnkota’s didn’t die.

That’s my point. Spend where it makes sense to you. Older tech is tried and true.

 

[cobratom]

In your opinion.
As brushless becomes more mainstream the brush motor stuff didn’t get a memo to stop working.

“Brushless” isn’t anything new, actually.
Induction motors are just…brushless.

What gets me is this odd phenomenon over the last 20 years where people think carburetors don’t work, lead acid batteries are useless, and new-tech motors make brushed motors obsolete.

There’s no doubt the tech has come a long way; basically it’s what made electric cars commercially feasible.

In this post the ponderings of minnkota brush VS not brushed came up. Minnkota brush motors didn’t get the memo: they still work pretty well, and all the old minnkota’s didn’t die.

That’s my point. Spend where it makes sense to you. Older tech is tried and true.

This is not just my opinion. It is industry wide.
Here is an Article from 17 years ago providing a 45% energy efficiency increase in forklifts moving to AC/brushless drive. Click here
It's no wonder everyone in the industry has moved to them.
Yes induction motors have been around since the late 1800's but an induction motor is a single speed beast that relies on the 60hz frequency to cycle its electromagnets, while VFD (Variable Frequency Drive) induction motors are the modern multi-speed alternative.
The catchphrase "brushless" is the mating of an inverter driven AC motor and a variable frequency drive. It does not matter if its induction or permanent magnet, so long as its AC 3 phase and controlled by a VFD.

The "brushless" catchphrase propelled industries that were being beat by their internal combustion counterparts into market leaders.

Suggesting brushless is finicky in the cold is a bit silly, Try telling that to my Tesla in the winter or the hundreds if not thousands of electric forklifts that work in warehouse freezers

 

[cobratom]

Also. nobody is suggesting that you throw out your old piece of equipment that does the same job albeit slower and not as efficient.
The whole point of improving tech is speed things up or make them more efficient.
You can chop a tree down with your trusty old two man crosscut saw or you can bring out a modern chainsaw and a single man can do the same job in half the time. Both methods still absolutely work, but it would be ignorant to suggest that one is not more efficient than the other.

 

[RzrProR]

In this post the ponderings of minnkota brush VS not brushed came up. Minnkota brush motors didn’t get the memo: they still work pretty well, and all the old minnkota’s didn’t die.

That’s my point. Spend where it makes sense to you. Older tech is tried and true.

MinnKota has an opportunity here to either time this right or not given their phenomenal market share. Their (cough) 'perfecting' automatic stow-n-go has (imho) allowed them to pretty much ride this supply shortage out while still promoting relatively inefficient motors. If they pull the plug on the brush soon, they will have helped distributors out by cleaning out inventory...although too many options related to their HumminBird fish finders somewhat prevented this from happening (my local distributor seems to still have many that he just cannot unload).
A lot of people waiting months on end if not longer for brushed units are going to be pretty irked if(?) they are suddenly put in the back of long lines (again) to catch up to what Lowrance and Garmin have already switched to. Just my $.02

 

[RzrProR]

...as monthly energy bills rise significantly and even those off-grid in 'challenged' sun and wind climates realize that charging batteries is truly a budget killer...motor efficiencies will (likely?) be calculated more closely.

 

[RzrProR]

What gets me is this odd phenomenon over the last 20 years where people think carburetors don’t work, lead acid batteries are useless, and new-tech motors make brushed motors obsolete.

Amen. My switch to brushless was prompted by the absence of a much more feature laden brushed product (period). Sure, I like the upsides of brushless of which there are many, but I understand your point. This will jerk the chains of many on here but many need to realize that solar, wind, electric everything transportation-related and much more are the products of a perfect storm: The free world sending generations to die fighting for our freedoms and then suddenly allowing those same ideals to be subjugated. Society crippling subsidies, environmental disasters, the purposeful destruction of entire manufacturing sectors, human rights abuses to no end, the creation of literal 'Masters of the Universe' after competition is crushed, the list goes on and on.
Old tech is still viable and just plain works. The problem that we have is few sticking up for it and everybody else figuring that this is all sustainable as our holy grail.
It is not.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

Suggesting brushless is finicky in the cold is a bit silly, Try telling that to my Tesla in the winter or the hundreds if not thousands of electric forklifts that work in warehouse freezers

Not the same. Smaller brushless implements aren’t necessarily up to tesla or fork truck performance.

Being in and around construction and mechanics here in Vermont the complaint factor on brushless tools in winter but not summer is telling.
Even Milwaukee in the trades: same lithium batteries, different tool motor- and folks know out in the cold to use their old tools for better performance.
The reps say they’re working on it.
Why would they say that if not so?

 

[cobratom]

Not the same. Smaller brushless implements aren’t necessarily up to tesla or fork truck performance.

Being in and around construction and mechanics here in Vermont the complaint factor on brushless tools in winter but not summer is telling.
Even Milwaukee in the trades: same lithium batteries, different tool motor- and folks know out in the cold to use their old tools for better performance.
The reps say they’re working on it.
Why would they say that if not so?

It is the same principal but miniaturized. I can't explain what this "rep" said or the hearsay.
A quick google of brushless tool cold problems suggest that what this "rep" is saying is hogwash.
If there are any tool problems in the cold I would suspect batteries long before any motor brushless or not.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

Ok

quick google of brushless tool cold problems suggest that what this "rep" is saying is hogwash

With exposure to hundreds of contractors and factory reps from four major colors of tools I am comfortable with my statement. Many of the brushless tools are more compact, and most of those have some performance advantages.
However, I just can’t dismiss opinions of users or the comments of reps. Moreover, I don’t take package labeling claiming 60% “better” than unnamed “competitor” tools very seriously.

Brushless motors per watt use the electronic wizardry we love to modulate and optimize power output in the lower power or midrange power outputs. At full power, a brushless motor versus a brush motor are virtually the same power: 768 watts is still 1HP. Thankfully.

 

[RzrProR]

I went with (3) of these: 12V; 200ah (no bells/whistles): https://www.amazon.com/CHINS-LiFePO4-Battery-2000-5000-Off-Grid/dp/B08FMVRJHZ?th=1
Two for the 24/36 dual voltage trolling motor; one for the electronics (Elite FS9 and Aqua-Vue) = $2,070.00 delivered
I'll just have to take my chances with the BMS compatability/charging issues as factory help with most anything nowadays is pretty bad.
Hopefully, I made the right choice and thanks to all who helped.

 

[sdnomad]

I'm leaning towards the Ionic LifePo4 batteries. If you call or email, they usually can give you a better price. The Ionic has everything other than heaters. The Chins smart batteries have heaters and Bluetooth for $550 but reading some of the reviews on here and Amazon has me leary. Ionic gets back with you within hours vs never. Ionic is focused mainly on the marine market so I think they are a good choice. I just wish my Interstate lead-acid batteries weren't still good.

 

[RzrProR]

...also threw in a plain Jane 12V; 100ah cell. For $319.
I looked at Ionic and couldn't find anything over a 50ah battery in stock today. They may be great batteries yet I needed these right away. Chins has not been 'right away' responsive here in the EST zone yet they have always gotten back to me after multiple questions in less than 12 hours and usually less.
They quoted me 4-8 days so we'll see what happens and report back if possible. I have a gut feeling so far that I made the right choice per Will's help with those videos. Sometimes you just have to roll the dice. I honestly feel lucky to even get these things after all the trouble that I had getting a MinnKota last year then switching to the Ghost instead.

 

[sdnomad]

...also threw in a plain Jane 12V; 100ah cell. For $319.
I looked at Ionic and couldn't find anything over a 50ah battery in stock today. They may be great batteries yet I needed these right away. Chins has not been 'right away' responsive here in the EST zone yet they have always gotten back to me after multiple questions in less than 12 hours and usually less.
They quoted me 4-8 days so we'll see what happens and report back if possible. I have a gut feeling so far that I made the right choice per Will's help with those videos. Sometimes you just have to roll the dice. I honestly feel lucky to even get these things after all the trouble that I had getting a MinnKota last year then switching to the Ghost instead.

I'd be curious to know how it goes with Chins. I was tossing that battery around also after watching Will's videos but no low temp protection. I was just going off what I read on this forum and one review on Amazon which stated if you get a bad battery, they won't refund unless you give it a good review. And it sounded like a lot of folks in this forum were getting bad batteries. But who knows.

 

[RzrProR]

I'd be curious to know how it goes with Chins. I was tossing that battery around also after watching Will's videos but no low temp protection. I was just going off what I read on this forum and one review on Amazon which stated if you get a bad battery, they won't refund unless you give it a good review. And it sounded like a lot of folks in this forum were getting bad batteries. But who knows.

I appreciate the heads up as I haven't been a member long enough to read all of the reviews. I probably just want to have a gut feeling after spending well over $2k on critical stuff that I rarely low low lowball price out let alone purchase.
I guess I figured that I will never fish more than God wills it and that any additional application will likely (soon?) precede Him coming anyways so...compromise.
if I can set these up alternatively to be charged by my 3 bank Sterling 60A mentioned previously with a generator...I'll be happy enough until I run out of fuel. ??

 

[sdnomad]

I appreciate the heads up as I haven't been a member long enough to read all of the reviews. I probably just want to have a gut feeling after spending well over $2k on critical stuff that I rarely low low lowball price out let alone purchase.
I guess I figured that I will never fish more than God wills it and that any additional application will likely (soon?) precede Him coming anyways so...compromise.
if I can set these up alternatively to be charged by my 3 bank Sterling 60A mentioned previously with a generator...I'll be happy enough until I run out of fuel. ??

I believe we are all in the same boat. Matthew 24