Trouble Charging LiTime TM Batteries

[JohnNSP]

I have three LiTime TM batteries (https://www.litime.com/products/litime-12v-100ah-tm-deep-cycle-lifepo4-battery-for-trolling-motors) that I bought based on Will's teardown video.

I have a Minn Kota 440PCL 10A charger (https://minnkota.johnsonoutdoors.com/us/shop/battery-chargers/on-board-precision-chargers?v=102071). This charger has a lithium setting, and I do have the charger properly set to "lithium."

Finally, I have Victron Smart Battery Sense Bluetooth monitors on each battery (https://www.victronenergy.com/accessories/smart-battery-sense).

I am currently using two of the batteries in series for a 24v trolling motor. I fully charged them to balance within .02v prior to connecting them. The third one will be used when I upgrade to a 36v trolling motor in the coming months. The charger is connected to each battery (independent 12v leads).

The batteries have run my trolling motor fine so far (two trips), but charging seems to be a mess. Two of the batteries seems to be periodically locking up at approximately 12.9 volts. This is happening to one of the batteries in the series and to the battery that is standing alone (which was previously connected in series - I swapped them out). When this happens, the charger seems to turn on and off so that the voltage (per Victron monitor) is flicking back and forth between 14.3 to 12.9. The battery stays at 12.9v (does not increase) regardless of how long I let it do this (I've tried up to two days) and sits as 12.9 when I unplug the charger.

I contacted LiTime, and they said I should discharge the problem battery for one minute, then charge it again. That didn't work, but eventually I got it to work by connecting a device, letting it run for considerably longer than one minute, and then connecting the charger. This seemed to get the battery to accept a charge. But when I disconnected the charger, the battery fairly quickly (30 minutes give or take) stepped down 12.9v as through something was sucking the power from it. The only devices connected to the battery is the bluetooth monitor and the charger. I've done this with both "problem batteries." I've yet to experience this with the third battery, which has been in series the entire time).

The only thing the two "problem batteries" seem to have in common is that I've had each of them connected in series with the positive to the load and the negative coming from the third battery that has not yet had a problem. LiTime says these batteries can be run in series up to 48v. I did balance them before connecting in series. And the charger is built for lithium. I am mostly clueless, but guessing the BMS isn't compatible with my setup. This would be very disappointing given the fact that these are marketed as trolling motor batteries and I have one of the most common chargers and setups for trolling motors...

I'm frustrated. I have an Ionic brand battery for my starting/house battery and it's been flawless in that application with the charger. I've asked LiTime twice now to send me a return authorization for the batteries. They keep coming back with advice and have yet to send the return authorization. Their latest advice was that I should buy their charger and that they'll take it back if it doesn't work. This system is in the hull of my boat with difficult access. The MK440PCL charger is installed in the hull of the boat and I don't want to remove it. And I can't disconnect the series for charging due to access restrictions).

I was hoping to save some $ by going with these and at this point I wish I had just paid for Ionic across the board. I took the risk, but LiTime should at least honor their 30 day return policy.

Any thoughts or advice on this?

 

[sunshine_eggo]

"balanced to within 0.02V" - not sure what you mean here. This can only be meaningful at or above 13.8V.

Best practice is to charge batteries individually to 14.4V. Then charge in parallel to 14.4V and hold for two hours. Then place in series.

If you're running your batteries down to 12.9V, they're pretty low.

It does sound like you might have a problematic battery. It might be worth insisting on a return.

 

[JohnNSP]

To balance them, I charged the batteries individually to full capacity. After resting them, they were within .02 volts of each other on a volt meter so I connected them in series. Call it 13.38 and 13.36, though I can't remember the exact voltages.

The funny thing is, I have not run the batteries down to 12.9v. They (both of them) are just doing that for some reason, and there's literally nowhere for the power to go. The most I've used the batteries should have chewed up less than 25% of capacity. This is why I can only figure the BMS is doing something that I don't understand.

 

[dvrdwn]

To balance them, I charged the batteries individually to full capacity. After resting them, they were within .02 volts of each other on a volt meter so I connected them in series. Call it 13.38 and 13.36, though I can't remember the exact voltages.

The funny thing is, I have not run the batteries down to 12.9v. They (both of them) are just doing that for some reason, and there's literally nowhere for the power to go. The most I've used the batteries should have chewed up less than 25% of capacity. This is why I can only figure the BMS is doing something that I don't understand.

I am running into the same problem. I have 2 brand new and they both would only charge to 12.9.

 

[HarryN]

Some chargers have a safety timer in them that over rides the other charge parameters.

The idea behind this is that it is a back - up cut off in case something goes wrong in the charger voltage measurements.

Unplugging and re-starting the charger will usually re-set this.

It could also be that the BMS in the battery has tripped and it is topping out at a particular voltage just due to how the bms behaves. You could try discharging it further and see if it behaves again.

Many LiFe BMS types will re-set if you completely disconnect them from power and then re-connect.

 

[Alkaline]

I have three LiTime TM batteries (https://www.litime.com/products/litime-12v-100ah-tm-deep-cycle-lifepo4-battery-for-trolling-motors) that I bought based on Will's teardown video.

I have a Minn Kota 440PCL 10A charger (https://minnkota.johnsonoutdoors.com/us/shop/battery-chargers/on-board-precision-chargers?v=102071). This charger has a lithium setting, and I do have the charger properly set to "lithium."

Finally, I have Victron Smart Battery Sense Bluetooth monitors on each battery (https://www.victronenergy.com/accessories/smart-battery-sense).

I am currently using two of the batteries in series for a 24v trolling motor. I fully charged them to balance within .02v prior to connecting them. The third one will be used when I upgrade to a 36v trolling motor in the coming months. The charger is connected to each battery (independent 12v leads).

The batteries have run my trolling motor fine so far (two trips), but charging seems to be a mess. Two of the batteries seems to be periodically locking up at approximately 12.9 volts. This is happening to one of the batteries in the series and to the battery that is standing alone (which was previously connected in series - I swapped them out). When this happens, the charger seems to turn on and off so that the voltage (per Victron monitor) is flicking back and forth between 14.3 to 12.9. The battery stays at 12.9v (does not increase) regardless of how long I let it do this (I've tried up to two days) and sits as 12.9 when I unplug the charger.

I contacted LiTime, and they said I should discharge the problem battery for one minute, then charge it again. That didn't work, but eventually I got it to work by connecting a device, letting it run for considerably longer than one minute, and then connecting the charger. This seemed to get the battery to accept a charge. But when I disconnected the charger, the battery fairly quickly (30 minutes give or take) stepped down 12.9v as through something was sucking the power from it. The only devices connected to the battery is the bluetooth monitor and the charger. I've done this with both "problem batteries." I've yet to experience this with the third battery, which has been in series the entire time).

The only thing the two "problem batteries" seem to have in common is that I've had each of them connected in series with the positive to the load and the negative coming from the third battery that has not yet had a problem. LiTime says these batteries can be run in series up to 48v. I did balance them before connecting in series. And the charger is built for lithium. I am mostly clueless, but guessing the BMS isn't compatible with my setup. This would be very disappointing given the fact that these are marketed as trolling motor batteries and I have one of the most common chargers and setups for trolling motors...

I'm frustrated. I have an Ionic brand battery for my starting/house battery and it's been flawless in that application with the charger. I've asked LiTime twice now to send me a return authorization for the batteries. They keep coming back with advice and have yet to send the return authorization. Their latest advice was that I should buy their charger and that they'll take it back if it doesn't work. This system is in the hull of my boat with difficult access. The MK440PCL charger is installed in the hull of the boat and I don't want to remove it. And I can't disconnect the series for charging due to access restrictions).

I was hoping to save some $ by going with these and at this point I wish I had just paid for Ionic across the board. I took the risk, but LiTime should at least honor their 30 day return policy.

Any thoughts or advice on this?

Why on earth is anyone buying these things and not going form amazon, don't you know when you buy these cheapies the only saving grace you have is the amazon return policy, because without that you are going to be screwed.


Its true waize, litime, chins, all of the budget brands; buy from amazon only. You can force them to take it back and also give them a bad review which they are more scared of than anything else.

 

[dvrdwn]

Why on earth is anyone buying these things and not going form amazon, don't you know when you buy these cheapies the only saving grace you have is the amazon return policy, because without that you are going to be screwed.


Its true waize, litime, chins, all of the budget brands; buy from amazon only. You can force them to take it back and also give them a bad review which they are more scared of than anything else.

I bought my LiTime from amazon.

 

[HarryN]

There really isn't any way to know if the issue is your batteries or the charger or an interaction at this point.

Why on earth is anyone buying these things and not going form amazon, don't you know when you buy these cheapies the only saving grace you have is the amazon return policy, because without that you are going to be screwed.


Its true waize, litime, chins, all of the budget brands; buy from amazon only. You can force them to take it back and also give them a bad review which they are more scared of than anything else.

Amazon charges such high overhead, it is amazing that anyone can afford to sell through that platform or ebay.

 

[Alkaline]

I don't care what Amazon charges only a ? would buy direct from a Chinese company, if they have a contact phone that starts with country code 86 on there site then you deserver to get burned. Sorry if its harsh but I have learned this the hard way form e-bikes, to 3d printers. You can go to Heck once they have your money.

Never ever buy direct form a Direct to China company without going through Amazon.

 

[willo]

You need to understand the function of the BMS. It should be monitoring individual internal cell voltages. If a cell is going too high or too low, it'll cut out charge or discharge respectively. Once you give up on the company, you may want to consider adding a different BMS.
Either way, I'd at least look into adding a monitoring shunt to the system. The victron smart shunt is a nice option for this, you can bluetooth into it from your phone and see how much you've actually discharged the pack.

 

[Crowz]

I have weize and chins batteries all bought thru amazon. Great luck so far but I wouldn't dream of buying them except thru amazon because of the risk/hassle doing it other ways.

 

[dvrdwn]

I have three LiTime TM batteries (https://www.litime.com/products/litime-12v-100ah-tm-deep-cycle-lifepo4-battery-for-trolling-motors) that I bought based on Will's teardown video.

I have a Minn Kota 440PCL 10A charger (https://minnkota.johnsonoutdoors.com/us/shop/battery-chargers/on-board-precision-chargers?v=102071). This charger has a lithium setting, and I do have the charger properly set to "lithium."

Finally, I have Victron Smart Battery Sense Bluetooth monitors on each battery (https://www.victronenergy.com/accessories/smart-battery-sense).

I am currently using two of the batteries in series for a 24v trolling motor. I fully charged them to balance within .02v prior to connecting them. The third one will be used when I upgrade to a 36v trolling motor in the coming months. The charger is connected to each battery (independent 12v leads).

The batteries have run my trolling motor fine so far (two trips), but charging seems to be a mess. Two of the batteries seems to be periodically locking up at approximately 12.9 volts. This is happening to one of the batteries in the series and to the battery that is standing alone (which was previously connected in series - I swapped them out). When this happens, the charger seems to turn on and off so that the voltage (per Victron monitor) is flicking back and forth between 14.3 to 12.9. The battery stays at 12.9v (does not increase) regardless of how long I let it do this (I've tried up to two days) and sits as 12.9 when I unplug the charger.

I contacted LiTime, and they said I should discharge the problem battery for one minute, then charge it again. That didn't work, but eventually I got it to work by connecting a device, letting it run for considerably longer than one minute, and then connecting the charger. This seemed to get the battery to accept a charge. But when I disconnected the charger, the battery fairly quickly (30 minutes give or take) stepped down 12.9v as through something was sucking the power from it. The only devices connected to the battery is the bluetooth monitor and the charger. I've done this with both "problem batteries." I've yet to experience this with the third battery, which has been in series the entire time).

The only thing the two "problem batteries" seem to have in common is that I've had each of them connected in series with the positive to the load and the negative coming from the third battery that has not yet had a problem. LiTime says these batteries can be run in series up to 48v. I did balance them before connecting in series. And the charger is built for lithium. I am mostly clueless, but guessing the BMS isn't compatible with my setup. This would be very disappointing given the fact that these are marketed as trolling motor batteries and I have one of the most common chargers and setups for trolling motors...

I'm frustrated. I have an Ionic brand battery for my starting/house battery and it's been flawless in that application with the charger. I've asked LiTime twice now to send me a return authorization for the batteries. They keep coming back with advice and have yet to send the return authorization. Their latest advice was that I should buy their charger and that they'll take it back if it doesn't work. This system is in the hull of my boat with difficult access. The MK440PCL charger is installed in the hull of the boat and I don't want to remove it. And I can't disconnect the series for charging due to access restrictions).

I was hoping to save some $ by going with these and at this point I wish I had just paid for Ionic across the board. I took the risk, but LiTime should at least honor their 30 day return policy.

Any thoughts or advice on this?

I've gone through the same thing. LiTime has contacted me and asked for some info to start the return process.

 

[Will Prowse]

I would try a different charger. There's nothing special about those batteries, very basic BMS. Sounds like the charger is being silly

 

[Will Prowse]

Can you put a clamp meter on the charger to see if it's doing 10A

 

[mikefitz]

flicking back and forth between 14.3 to 12.9

Sounds like BMS shutdown of charge path. This will reduce the effective voltage seen at the terminals. The battery cells may be near full charge, 13.5 volts, but the BMS volt drop, 0.6 volts gives 12.9 at the terminals.

Setting the charger , if possible, to a lower charge volts could stop cell overvolts. It seems your charger has fixed outputs. Try the GEL setting or more ideal get a battery with user setting, example Victron,

Blue Smart IP67 Charger Waterproof - Victron Energy

The Blue Smart IP67 Waterproof Charger is the new professional battery charger with built-in bluetooth. Find a Victron Energy dealer near you.

www.victronenergy.com

This charger will offer user settings and record charge status and charge power taken by the battery.

There is nothing wrong with your batteries, just slightly inbalanced cells, that will slowly improve over time.

 

[Solarcabin Channel]

This seems to be a common problem with charging LIFEPO4 from an AC charger and I suspect what is happening is as the batteries get full the BMS is ramping down the charge rate amps to allow the cells to balance which confuses the charger and can cause overheating.

Even though these chargers say they can be used for LIFEPO4 unless they are matched to the battery BMS they may not work well.

If you are not using these batteries every day you might consider some solar panels and a good MPPT solar charge controller designed for LIFEPO4 batteries instead of the AC charger.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

This seems to be a common problem with charging LIFEPO4 from an AC charger and I suspect what is happening is as the batteries get full the BMS is ramping down the charge rate amps to allow the cells to balance which confuses the charger and can cause overheating.

This doesn't happen. Period. BMS do not regulate current in any way. They are an on/off switch. If a protection parameter goes out of bounds, the BMS opens the circuit and stops charge and/or discharge as appropriate.

Even though these chargers say they can be used for LIFEPO4 unless they are matched to the battery BMS they may not work well.

False statement. the majority of issues between chargers and LFP batteries are the LFP batteries being imbalanced when received by the customer where charge protection is activated before full charge voltage can be achieved. It's pervasive. Hundreds of accounts of this kind of issue on this site. Wiring 12V batteries in series makes this issue even more troublesome.

If you are not using these batteries every day you might consider some solar panels and a good MPPT solar charge controller designed for LIFEPO4 batteries instead of the AC charger.

IMHO, anybody dealing with batteries needs a 30V/10A benchtop power supply OR a fully adjustable charger like for RC batteries.

 

[Solarcabin Channel]

This doesn't happen. Period. BMS do not regulate current in any way. They are an on/off switch. If a protection parameter goes out of bounds, the BMS opens the circuit and stops charge and/or discharge as appropriate.



False statement. the majority of issues between chargers and LFP batteries are the LFP batteries being imbalanced when received by the customer where charge protection is activated before full charge voltage can be achieved. It's pervasive. Hundreds of accounts of this kind of issue on this site. Wiring 12V batteries in series makes this issue even more troublesome.



IMHO, anybody dealing with batteries needs a 30V/10A benchtop power supply OR a fully adjustable charger like for RC batteries.

"Current Monitoring: The BMS system monitors the current flowing into and out of the battery to ensure that it is within safe limits. If the current exceeds or falls below safe limits, the BMS will activate protective measures. " -Rocksolar

"Cell Balancing: The BMS system ensures that each cell in the battery pack is charged and discharged evenly to prevent overcharging or over-discharging of any individual cell." -Rocksolar

"The BMS will stop the charging or discharging process if any cell in the pack starts to overcharge or overdischarge in order to protect the cell from damage. The BMS balances the battery pack’s cells so that they all have the same voltage." -Rocksolar

It is nice to have an opinion but let's stick with what the experts say.

Have a great day!

 

[Will Prowse]

"Current Monitoring: The BMS system monitors the current flowing into and out of the battery to ensure that it is within safe limits. If the current exceeds or falls below safe limits, the BMS will activate protective measures. " -Rocksolar

"Cell Balancing: The BMS system ensures that each cell in the battery pack is charged and discharged evenly to prevent overcharging or over-discharging of any individual cell." -Rocksolar

"The BMS will stop the charging or discharging process if any cell in the pack starts to overcharge or overdischarge in order to protect the cell from damage. The BMS balances the battery pack’s cells so that they all have the same voltage." -Rocksolar

It is nice to have an opinion but let's stick with what the experts say.

Have a great day!

It's only for over current protection. And it has a time delay. And you cannot under current a battery. That is a typo. They need to change that sentence.

 

[Will Prowse]

This doesn't happen. Period. BMS do not regulate current in any way. They are an on/off switch. If a protection parameter goes out of bounds, the BMS opens the circuit and stops charge and/or discharge as appropriate.



False statement. the majority of issues between chargers and LFP batteries are the LFP batteries being imbalanced when received by the customer where charge protection is activated before full charge voltage can be achieved. It's pervasive. Hundreds of accounts of this kind of issue on this site. Wiring 12V batteries in series makes this issue even more troublesome.



IMHO, anybody dealing with batteries needs a 30V/10A benchtop power supply OR a fully adjustable charger like for RC batteries.

Some server rack batteries actually have a buck converter and will regulate the current. Usually it drops it to 10 amps. These cheap 12 volt batteries only have on and off switch though.

Yeah the power supply is wise to have. Especially in these situations. And especially when people put them into series