Utility jerking me around.

[TheFlumph]

Solar does not suite everyone in all situations, this seems to be an example of this.
OP needs to think outside the power companies box and accept what is possible and financially prudent.

I’ve got 60 panels already. I would be producing enough throughout the sunny months to offset the high use cloudy months. I don’t need to be off grid.
Solar will suite me just fine. I just have to just through some hoops.
Once I’m done doing that I’ll be glad I did.

It should save me nearly $4000 a year. More when I install geothermal heat pumps. The system will pay for itself in under 5 years.

 

[TheFlumph]

What are you talking about??? we have GREAT solar production here in Vermont in the winter

Was I supposed to get more than 20 watt hours of production in a day from a 360 watt panel a few weeks back

Im just glad to see the sun again.

Winter energy production is tough here.
I’ve got a really good brook to do hydro, but it would just freeze for 4 months.

I’ve got 13 cord of dry wood stored away lol.

 

[kscessnadriver]

View attachment 197820View attachment 197821Ok. I’ve come up with plan B.
I made a new plan for two growatt min 7600 grid tie inverters.
this plan has me going grid tie only and I’ll just get a propane generator later on for power outages.

I have 60 300w panels. I could go 3 strings of 10 into each of the two inverters and then combine the ac output in an AC combiner (breaker box with two 35a breakers in and a 70a breaker out.) then to my production meter. After the ac disconnect I’ll just land on a 70a backfeed breaker. The two inverters output a max of 32a each.
The 70 backfeed breaker is within the 120% rule for my main panel busbar.

All the learning and researching and experience I have is from my hybrid inverter. I haven’t dealt with these grid tie only inverters. How does this look?

This is all predicated on if signature solar takes my return back. They said probably with a restock fee.

If you wanted battery backup, you could make it work with these Growatt inverters, still have your production meter, and back the whole house up. You could use the SYN-200 whole home backup, paired with the Growatt HV batteries.

 

[TheFlumph]

If you wanted battery backup, you could make it work with these Growatt inverters, still have your production meter, and back the whole house up. You could use the SYN-200 whole home backup, paired with the Growatt HV batteries.

I was just looking at those batteries. It’s definitely an option.

 

[kscessnadriver]

I was just looking at those batteries. It’s definitely an option.

They're not cheap, like the 48V setups most people here are running, but from what I've heard from people who have them, is they work.

 

[Hedges]

Winter energy production is tough here.
I’ve got a really good brook to do hydro, but it would just freeze for 4 months.

You sure? The water is probably still flowing. Maybe an insulated pipe in or on the ground would not freeze up.
You might get icicle built up around the turbine depending on how it is enclosed, however.

 

[Zapper77]

Sound like they require you to sell all PV generated to them. No self consumption allowed. I've heard in cases like this they buy at wholesale rates.

 

[robbob2112]

Here with my PoCo they want similar but not for the same reasons I think. They want a production meter in addition to the utility meter. In their case they offer a program where they discharge your battery bank down 40% from full. $30 a month for a 30k battery bank and $60 for the 60k battery. It is entirely optional. If you use specific models of Sol-Ark AIO and let them tie into a datafeed where they can also do remote shutdown of the utility feed or verify it is off, there is another credit because they didn't have to install an advanced net-meter.

On the downside the net meter is wholesale rates and is capped at 20% of total usage by KW by month. Once a year true up and all fees offset first. So if you right-size the system you can have zero bill and make a little. According to the paperwork they expect the true up to be $500 or less.

Seems pretty reasonable to me. NEC2020 plus a couple of local county and utility rules, but NEC trumps in a conflict.

Glad I live in colorado.

 

[k490]

My utility also requires multiple meters when using a battery storage system. Speculation on my part is they want to monitor your system in case you change it. Grandfathering goes away when you change your system, and the agreement you sign they require you to go through the approval process again when you modify anything. I don't know how well enforced that is. Another idea is one day they might charge you for producing your own power. I know California kicked around the idea you would pay a tax for power you produce and use yourself which would go to the utility. The idea was dropped after getting too much pushback.

Here is the sample drawing they gave me if I wanted a hybrid inverter and battery. You can see here there are 3 meters you have to install one at the service entrance, one between the backup load panel and the inverter, and one between the main panel and inverter grid connection probably to defeat someone using CT clamps monitor power you produce not sell it back. The meters are all tagged with tamper locks probably some criminal law if you remove a meter or try to bypass it. Possible way around it is get a micro-grid inverter approved which uses your existing meter socket just replace the meter. Then go back and install a a 18PVK and battery move the output of the micro-inverter system to the 18pvk and AC-couple.

Just another way for the utility to keep you on their hook. They know solar contractor will only jack the price up higher and most people won't bother with solar if it cost $100k. Greenlancer can produce professional drawings that would satisfy them that look like this. The problem is you sent them that drawing from the EG4 manual they are used to seeing stuff like this. You could contact the state commission usually lights a fire under the utility they don't like getting calls from them.

Looks like to me from the flowchart from your PDF link 5.500 if you don't want net-metering then your not governed by FERC. I don't know if you care about getting Net-metering if you don't want it ask them about that.

I think California the utility wants to control the inverter I didn't get that far with my utility this is about as far as I got with them.


Lo

 

[NC_hydro]

You sure? The water is probably still flowing. Maybe an insulated pipe in or on the ground would not freeze up.
You might get icicle built up around the turbine depending on how it is enclosed, however.

Bury the pipe below frost line and bring it in an insulated turbine shed. Unless his place is like mine and too rocky to bury the pipe.

 

[Quattrohead]

Just another way for the utility to keep you on their hook.

100%

 

[TheFlumph]

Bury the pipe below frost line and bring it in an insulated turbine shed. Unless his place is like mine and too rocky to bury the pipe.

Ya my frost line is like 8 feet and extremely rocky. When I trenched for the wire conduit part of my trench was 8’ wide from digging out bolders.

 

[green mountain boys]

Ya my frost line is like 8 feet and extremely rocky. When I trenched for the wire conduit part of my trench was 8’ wide from digging out bolders.

Yes the frost is no joke. It was several winters back when all the underground water lines began to freeze solid in early January. New Year's Day was about -35F. I remember it well because I worked outside that day for about 18 hours straight. The frost reached around 8 feet deep. Those who were lucky and/or smart enough kept a spigot open 24/7 to keep the water moving. Many town water lines froze solid under the roads where the frost could penetrate deeper. Some where without water until the spring thaw.

 

[No One is Free]

TheFlumph​

Did you ever receive a copy of the metering contract?

In Minnesota (Xcel), a production meter and a bi-directional meter are required for back feeding the grid. My production meter is only used to perform calculations on how much I will be paid each year, just for production. Currently I get $0.08 kWh for first ten years of production, about $1,200 a year. I have true 1 to 1 net metering, every month I produce more than what I use I get another check at current rates. The only catch is, I can not produce more than 120% of my previous 12 months combined of power used.

If you will get $0.20 kWh, then definitely jump through some hoops. Sounds like you would be leaving lots of money on the table if you don't. I say get that contract and read it closely. Contract should tell you what specific rules/codes you must follow. I doubt it says you are required to have two inverters.

Not an electrician, but wouldn't a production meter just be placed between the A/C output of inverter and the loads it will be feeding. Parallel to the incoming grid feed. Once all loads are satisfied, all excess production is pushed to the grid.

I realize you are in a different state, but if like Minnesota, your payback period will be short. So having a real contract in your hands to review will help you make a decision on what is best for you. Emails sent to you without proper references is not always helpful. The true rules are written down someplace.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

They already sprang the expense of a new transformer on me

Curious. I’m northeast kingdom. How much did they want to tariff you for the transformer?

You sure?

There is a stream ~16’ wide that is my property line on that side. It was frozen solid a few weeks ago. With the warm weather it took three days for the ice to melt out where the rocks started showing; the meltoff was running over the top of the ice.
The northeast can be challenging.

 

[NC_hydro]

Curious. I’m northeast kingdom. How much did they want to tariff you for the transformer?

There is a stream ~16’ wide that is my property line on that side. It was frozen solid a few weeks ago. With the warm weather it took three days for the ice to melt out where the rocks started showing; the meltoff was running over the top of the ice.
The northeast can be challenging.

The ice insulates the water below, while it might have appeared frozen solid, the water was running below the ice. Seen it many times on a River of similar size in Northern New Hampshire/Maine behind my uncle’s cabin in Carroll County. Always thought it was cool seeing pickups out on the lakes ice fishing. Beautiful country.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

The ice insulates the water below, while it might have appeared frozen solid, the water was running below the ice. Seen it many times on a River of similar size in Northern New Hampshire/Maine behind my uncle’s cabin in Carroll County. Always thought it was cool seeing pickups out on the lakes ice fishing. Beautiful country.

No. It was frozen solid.
It’s a runoff stream-unless it rains it typically turns to a trickle in summer at one end of my small parcel and disappears into the stony moraine before it gets to the SE boundary stake. So it’s not a spring-fed or pond-source waterway.

I watched it slowly melt away around the rocks, the running water eventually channeling down to the streambed. It did not appear frozen solid, it was frozen solid.
A day later it had undercut the ice as the volume running from above increased.

It slowly gained height over the winter. Typically three feet below the banks, on some warmer days the meltoff ran over the ice. This froze overnight as the temperature dropped, to recently layering several feet thick and less than a foot below the bank.

Not here, but elsewhere nearby I have seen waterlines freeze that are buried over eight feet deep. Short days, weeks of clouds, and cold temperatures don’t do water any better than solar.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

TLDR: jsut keep one shitty 120 volt circuit at the breaker box with a 20 amp NEMA plug receptacle.

off grid the entire works and plug into their system in emergencies when you need to charge... one charge verter later and tell them to go outside around the corner and fornicate with themselves. as long as your system is not wired to theirs, they have no complaint. as long as you have grid power (there are no rules as too how much you have to use, or what its capacity is.) Think 30 amp service to a main box with meter on the side of your house that goes no further. and if you were to plug a extension cord of some sort into that socket occasionally and use some power... that is legal as well. (have it go into a charge verter directly to the batteries. a charge verter does not make power and even if it fries it is no different than a 200 amp 12 volt Schumacher batter charger...

learn how to say fuck you in burecratese.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

there are no rules as too how much you have to use, or what its capacity is.

Here, where I’m at in NE Vermont, the utility has a coupla different fees on every bill regardless of kWh BUT they charge an additional fee ($7.95?) if you don’t use over some very small amount of kWh per month. IIRC that works out somewhere just over $30/month minimum charges ($360/yr).
So it sorta is a rule. Vermont is weird politically, and nimby is strong.

For me, (totally offgrid capability and sustainable other than Nov- Feb, March-ish (about 18gal/$60 of gasoline generator since Sept)) the combined costs to connect to grid were ~$5200 before I even bought an approved UL1741”.x” inverter so I could send to grid. Problem being that it’s net metering, so I’d get $nothing$ of an advantage economically on an annual basis.

My solar is more than adequate for residential usage. However, while adding sufficient kWh capacity to run the shop tools (welders, tablesaw, plasma, compressor) was partly why I wanted to grid connect, the ~$5k up front with net metering inverter/equipment on top of that didn’t make sense to me.

So I bought a mid-sized adequate generator (that I thought I might want anyway) and another ~2kWh of storage, and will implement a low-frequency AIO strategy for the shop this summer.
That’s worked out pretty well so far. Since everything was procured on the one-payment plan and doesn’t cost $360/yr to be connected, it makes economic sense on a near break-even balance sheet. If ‘they’ actually paid me something to sell power (above net metering) I’d likely have just done it.

So in Vermont there are ‘rules’ they manipulate the market to implement instead of limiting incentives or writing actual language into law.

sidebar: my aunt and uncle in another state actually make $9k-$14k annually on their solar installation. They are about 12 years into the contract and it is state regulated.

If you consume a lot of kWh here (irrespective of “efficiency” realities) then the net metering sorta makes sen$e I guess? But there’s still a cost structure associated- here- that essentially creates its own ’rules.’

 

[TheFlumph]

Curious. I’m northeast kingdom. How much did they want to tariff you for the transformer?

There is a stream ~16’ wide that is my property line on that side. It was frozen solid a few weeks ago. With the warm weather it took three days for the ice to melt out where the rocks started showing; the meltoff was running over the top of the ice.
The northeast can be challenging.

It was about $1800 for a 15kva