Very well done study on myocarditis shows very high rates.

[Cdkipp]

Still so sure?

No. He has no studies. He has one anecdotal case where he thinks that is what happened. He is then referring to the mice cases but he has not looked at those studies and so he is just guessing that the method, dosage, and impact of giving mice these injections means there is a similar impact in humans. When he talks about the fluid from a fine needle going in with a lot of pressure. That is true but that would decrease rather than increase the chances of something getting in a vein. It will just blow small veins out immediately.

The other thing as I said before. It makes no sense this would be happening more in one portion of the population than the other. For instance, happening mostly in young males. The other thing is that it is happening much less with the first shot in young males than with the second shot. It makes no sense that you would hit a vein more frequently the second time around. The answer is that this is an IMMUNE REACTION. It is no big deal to ask a nurse to aspirate but the dangerous part is to think this will make the problem go away. It will not. While rare this is a side effect of the vaccine and hence the caution by the FDA and manufacturers.

 

[Cdkipp]

No. He has no studies. He has one anecdotal case where he thinks that is what happened. He is then referring to the mice cases but he has not looked at those studies and so he is just guessing that the method, dosage, and impact of giving mice these injections means there is a similar impact in humans. When he talks about the fluid from a fine needle going in with a lot of pressure. That is true but that would decrease rather than increase the chances of something getting in a vein. It will just blow small veins out immediately.

The other thing as I said before. It makes no sense this would be happening more in one portion of the population than the other. For instance, happening mostly in young males. The other thing is that it is happening much less with the first shot in young males than with the second shot. It makes no sense that you would hit a vein more frequently the second time around. The answer is that this is an IMMUNE REACTION. It is no big deal to ask a nurse to aspirate but the dangerous part is to think this will make the problem go away. It will not. While rare this is a side effect of the vaccine and hence the caution by the FDA and manufacturers.

The other thing is that if Moderna and Pfizer thought that there was no problem with their vaccine but that myocarditis was attributable to technician error, they would be trumpeting that from the rooftops. It just isn't true.

 

[Cdkipp]

Still so sure?

If anyone believes this is the problem and the risk of myocarditis is holding them back from getting the vaccine (it shouldn't) then by all means ask to have your shot aspirated before the injection. It doesn't hurt anything except your arm.

 

[noenegdod]

If anyone believes this is the problem and the risk of myocarditis is holding them back from getting the vaccine (it shouldn't) then by all means ask to have your shot aspirated before the injection. It doesn't hurt anything except your arm.

100% only it doesnt hurt your arm if the person administering the shot is competent.

 

[Bob B]

It didn't hurt when I got it done that way .... and it was the first time the lady had ever tried doing it that way. She was either very good ... or it's not really all that hard.

 

[Shale MacGregor]

Really? I seem to recall advocating N95 masks and posting links to plans for DIY MERV filter air cleaners. I also posted the study about fluvoxamine and have talked about the promise of the new Pfizer drug. I have also talked about the deplorable state of testing in the US and our lack of contact tracing.

I missed which diy you posted, was it the filters plus box fan? I made a bunch of those for my daughter's school and for my office. They couldn't afford those 500-2k filters.

 

[Shale MacGregor]

I have been a supporter of vaccines .... except for the younger age groups. I still have seen no science that indicates healthy people less than 30 years old should be vaccinated.

No science to indicate that younger age groups
1) Can spread to older, more at risk people?
2) Can allow the virus additional chances to mutate?
3) Can come to work sick because their office doesn't have to worry about #1?

I think anyone who would push the vaccine as the be-all end-all doesn't understand the layered approach to mitigating a viral pandemic.

 

[noenegdod]

So I just want to push back on some of these points a little. I am not outright contradicting or saying they are wrong

No science to indicate that younger age groups
1) Can spread to older, more at risk people?

Does the vaccine prevent the spread of virus to at risk people?

2) Can allow the virus additional chances to mutate?

There is no question that more hosts and longer infections provide greater opportunity for mutation. Period. No one should argue with that. The other side of this however is that the less hospitable environment an aggressive immune response provides also kills off the original pathogen leaving any potential mutation with no competition. I am not saying these two scenarios are on a balanced scale, just that it is also a fact that cannot be ignored either.

3) Can come to work sick because their office doesn't have to worry about #1?

This has always pissed me off. If your sick, stay home. Period. Regardless of whether it is a cold, the flu or covid. Stay home.

I think anyone who would push the vaccine as the be-all end-all doesn't understand the layered approach to mitigating a viral pandemic.

 

[Cdkipp]

I missed which diy you posted, was it the filters plus box fan? I made a bunch of those for my daughter's school and for my office. They couldn't afford those 500-2k filters.

Yes. The Corsi-Rosenthal box as they call them but essentially box fan with filters taped around it in a square.

 

[Shale MacGregor]

So I just want to push back on some of these points a little. I am not outright contradicting or saying they are wrong

For sure, I enjoy discussing.

Does the vaccine prevent the spread of virus to at risk people?

Indirectly, not definitively. I think it is safe to say "sometimes". IF the person vaccinated avoids an infection because of the vaccine, and IF they would have then come into contact with X number of people of which Y % were vaccinated or unvaccinated, then potentially yes. Breathrough infections happen either way, but I would say anything that reduces the likelihood of contracting the virus, given a normal person with a normal routine, will have at least some non zero impact.

There is no question that more hosts and longer infections provide greater opportunity for mutation. Period. No one should argue with that. The other side of this however is that the less hospitable environment an aggressive immune response provides also kills off the original pathogen leaving any potential mutation with no competition. I am not saying these two scenarios are on a balanced scale, just that it is also a fact that cannot be ignored either.

Agree as well. Just in response to his comment about not seeing science for young people to be vaccinated, science may not say "yes they should" but it just shows whether or not the results of said action has an effect, and then to give a certain degree of certainty (or uncertainty) of how that will play out. Nothing definitive, but generalities that point to likelihoods.

This has always pissed me off. If your sick, stay home. Period. Regardless of whether it is a cold, the flu or covid. Stay home.

I don't disagree with you, but at what point is someone too sick to come to work? Many jobs don't have pay to stay home, and having lived paycheck to paycheck at multiple times in my life, as shitty as it is, I've come to work sick knowing that I should stay home but not being able to afford to.

 

[Cdkipp]

Does the vaccine prevent the spread of virus to at risk people?

Using words like prevent is what gets the CDC and Fauci in trouble.

Everything changed with Delta, and probably does again with Omicron, but the vaccine reduces spread as follows:
1. Outright blocks some infection 30%-40%.
2. Reduces the length of infection. Even though there is a breakthrough infection they are on average shorter in duration. Each day shorter is one less day of spreading.
3. Reduced viral loads. On average those with breakthrough infection carry the virus but at a reduced viral load. Reduction in the viral load reduces the chance of spread.

 

[Shale MacGregor]

Yes. The Corsi-Rosenthal box as they call them but essentially box fan with filters taped around it in a square.

I added some 1 inch charcoal to them as well, help freshen up the place, but probably at the expense of reducing airflow.

 

[Bob B]

So .... if you are trying to say the vaccinated don't spread the virus ..... how did that large group of people at Cornell University get infected?

You guys want to pretend the information we are getting from the CDC is correct.

 

[Shale MacGregor]

So .... if you are trying to say the vaccinated don't spread the virus ..... how did that large group of people at Cornell University get infected?

You guys want to pretend the information we are getting from the CDC is correct.

Why Bob? Why would you do this?

The last several responses just spelled out how the vaccine is NOT the silver bullet that stops this pandemic. It is one tool among many to REDUCE the number of infections, thus reduce the spread.

Instead you say "if you are trying to say the vaccinated don't spread the virus"... /sigh

 

[Bob B]

Why Bob? Why would you do this?

The last several responses just spelled out how the vaccine is NOT the silver bullet that stops this pandemic. It is one tool among many to REDUCE the number of infections, thus reduce the spread.

Instead you say "if you are trying to say the vaccinated don't spread the virus"... /sigh

The logic you are using to say children and other healthy young people need to be vaccinated is to prevent the spread .... that is why the spread among the vaccinated is relevant .... pretty simple actually

 

[Shale MacGregor]

So .... if you are trying to say the vaccinated don't spread the virus .....

Let's make it simple, I am not saying that.

how did that large group of people at Cornell University get infected?

Breakthrough cases due to a brand new shiny variant that apparently is not well controlled by 2 aged doses of the vaccine, and very minimally controlled by 2 doses + a booster.

You guys want to pretend the information we are getting from the CDC is correct.

Let's make it simple with an example so that you can see what I am saying. The CDC says get 2nd dose of vaccine after 3 weeks... the science says 8 weeks looks to be the sweet spot, I advised a family member to go for 8 weeks based on studies rather than follow the CDC blindly.

 

[Shale MacGregor]

The logic you are using to say children and other healthy young people need to be vaccinated is to prevent the spread ....

I did not say that. You said you had never seen science to say they should be vaccinated. I was explaining the very basic science for why, despite them having low risk to themselves, being vaccinated would play a part (maybe a small one) in preventing the spread. If you do not think someone under 30 can possibly get the virus, and possibly spread the virus, then you have ground to stand on. If you believe someone under 30 can get the virus, and can spread it, then you should agree that them being vaccinated MIGHT reduce the spread by SOME amount.

If you agree with that, then we agree with each other

that is why the spread among the vaccinated is relevant .... pretty simple actually

You seem to be arguing that if ANY vaccinated people can spread the virus, the NONE below 30 should be vaccinated.... this is just bad logic...

If you are asking if under 30 should be mandated? That is an entirely different discussion.


Let me remind you of what you said, so that I don't do what you have been doing with peoples words

" I still have seen no science that indicates healthy people less than 30 years old should be vaccinated." - Bob

Here is the science.... the vaccine has a CHANCE of preventing infection, if an infection is prevented, then there is a CHANCE that that person would have passed it on to someone else.... Science doesn't say they SHOULD get vaccinated, it simply states what can or can't happen based on those points of data.

 

[Bob B]

Let's make it simple, I am not saying that.

Breakthrough cases due to a brand new shiny variant that apparently is not well controlled by 2 aged doses of the vaccine, and very minimally controlled by 2 doses + a booster.


Let's make it simple with an example so that you can see what I am saying. The CDC says get 2nd dose of vaccine after 3 weeks... the science says 8 weeks looks to be the sweet spot, I advised a family member to go for 8 weeks based on studies rather than follow the CDC blindly.

My 2 main points are....1. that the excess death rate in the US is much higher than expected .... and it is also much higher in 2021 than it was in 2020.

2. I don't buy into the theory that it is necessary to vaccinate kids to achieve herd immunity. I simply don't think it is possible to achieve herd immunity with these Covid vaccines.

 

[Shale MacGregor]

My 2 main points are...
1. that the excess death rate in the US is much higher than expected .... and it is also much higher in 2021 than it was in 2020.

I agree

2. I don't buy into the theory that it is necessary to vaccinate kids to achieve herd immunity. I simply don't think it is possible to achieve herd immunity with these Covid vaccines.

I agree

 

[Bob B]

I did not say that. You said you had never seen science to say they should be vaccinated. I was explaining the very basic science for why, despite them having low risk to themselves, being vaccinated would play a part (maybe a small one) in preventing the spread. If you do not think someone under 30 can possibly get the virus, and possibly spread the virus, then you have ground to stand on. If you believe someone under 30 can get the virus, and can spread it, then you should agree that them being vaccinated MIGHT reduce the spread by SOME amount.

If you agree with that, then we agree with each other

You seem to be arguing that if ANY vaccinated people can spread the virus, the NONE below 30 should be vaccinated.... this is just bad logic...

If you are asking if under 30 should be mandated? That is an entirely different discussion.


Let me remind you of what you said, so that I don't do what you have been doing with peoples words

" I still have seen no science that indicates healthy people less than 30 years old should be vaccinated." - Bob

Here is the science.... the vaccine has a CHANCE of preventing infection, if an infection is prevented, then there is a CHANCE that that person would have passed it on to someone else.... Science doesn't say they SHOULD get vaccinated, it simply states what can or can't happen based on those points of data.

That is all pretty CHANCY logic don't you think ..... there is also a CHANCE that the young people can be harmed by the vaccine.
Where are the studies that show the benefit for healthy young people less than 30 is greater than the risk?