Victron Charge Controller Price Crash

[Partimewages]

This is with it on so doesn't matter if load or not. It's not in low power mode or not. Load just increases the efficiency.

I have a 3rd 5000w thats fed from the 2 main ones

Is your idle consumption measured or just what's listed? I've learned that Victron is one of the few companies that spec sheet is true

You're not going to convince @Zwy!

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Still not as big as what I have. And still rated as Kva, power factor of 1.

Mine use about 70W each but never idle. So if you want to compare, you need a load.........

Spec sheet for 48/5000Kva says 35W at idle each, about right.

At what power factor are your units rated?

 

[740GLE]

I’d much rather have a unit with a KVA rating than KW knowing PF in real world is never perfect. And I’d rather not be disappointed a “3kw” inverter is struggling with inductive loads.

Will just did a great video comparing a hf inverter (larger rated) vs a 3k MPII, guess which was able to source the load?

 

[Zwy]

This is with it on so doesn't matter if load or not. It's not in low power mode or not. Load just increases the efficiency.

Ya don't say. Hmmm........
But it is different with other inverters?

I have a 3rd 5000w thats fed from the 2 main ones

Is your idle consumption measured or just what's listed? I've learned that Victron is one of the few companies that spec sheet is true

Measured but they never idle. Idle consumption is meaningless to me in my house, there are always base loads. In my truck camper, we just turn the inverter off using a remote switch in the galley. But that only has 600W of panels with 200W more to be installed.

 

[ChrisG]

Will just did a great video comparing a hf inverter (larger rated) vs a 3k MPII, guess which was able to source the load?

@740GLE I don’t see any recent videos on this. Have a link?

 

[Zwy]

I’d much rather have a unit with a KVA rating than KW knowing PF in real world is never perfect. And I’d rather not be disappointed a “3kw” inverter is struggling with inductive loads.

Will just did a great video comparing a hf inverter (larger rated) vs a 3k MPII, guess which was able to source the load?

Better provide a link because I could not find it. It might be older than a few years which means it could be dated with changes in inverters.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

3 days ago:

Not sure what's wrong with you guys. Literally his latest video.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

Idle consumption is meaningless to me in my house,

If you have an inverter that consumes 100W by itself, that means that no matter what the load is, you have to have 2.4kWh per day on top of your usage just to run the inverter. If you have a base load of 300W, you have to take into account the inefficiencies of the conversion (so you want high efficiency) but you also have to add the 100W continuous on top no matter what your actual load is. For some this is not an issue. For others (with a cold, dark period in the year where solar is useless) it matters.

That's what my original statement was and you replied to in #201. You asked there "Here is the big question. If the unit is putting out ac power for even a 50 to 100W load, is the consumption of the inverter still 10W?". You expressed doubt. Zero load I measured a few posts ago at 11.5W, and today I measured with a 200W load on it. From this, the efficiency sits at 94% including the self consumption - which means a dissipation of 12W, or 0.5W increase on top of the measured 11.5W self consumption measured at zero load. This, I might add, is better than the numbers in the Victron datasheet, likely because of the lower ambient temperature.

Point being, yes, at an added load, the self consumption stays the same and the efficiency matches what the datasheet says. In addition, the values reported to the portal by the inverter itself are not accurate (as expected): the accuracy of the AC and DC measurements in the inverter are not sufficient to measure these aspects.

 

[ChrisG]

3 days ago:

Not sure what's wrong with you guys. Literally his latest video.

Ha. Didn’t watch it yet. Thought it was just about batteries.

 

[Brucey]

Ya don't say. Hmmm........
But it is different with other inverters?


Measured but they never idle. Idle consumption is meaningless to me in my house, there are always base loads. In my truck camper, we just turn the inverter off using a remote switch in the galley. But that only has 600W of panels with 200W more to be installed.

Base loads don't offset idle consumption.

 

[justinm001]

Still not as big as what I have. And still rated as Kva, power factor of 1.

Mine use about 70W each but never idle. So if you want to compare, you need a load.........

Spec sheet for 48/5000Kva says 35W at idle each, about right.

So your idle consumption is about double mine. Here's a video of yours through a shunt (1st inverter not new one that's even worse)

 

[Tomthumb62]

Zero load I measured a few posts ago at 11.5W, and today I measured with a 200W load on it. From this, the efficiency sits at 94% including the self consumption - which means a dissipation of 12W, or 0.5W increase on top of the measured 11.5W self consumption measured at zero load. This, I might add, is better than the numbers in the Victron datasheet, likely because of the lower ambient temperature.

Thank you for this. When I first got into solar, I asked: If an inverter has a no-load draw, say 10W, and you have a 150W load, is the total draw 160W? Many people said "no", which simply didn't make sense to me. I think what these people meant is since their use case is living in a 24/7/365 off-grid home where there is always some kind of load (never a no-load situation), that the idle-draw is a moot point, that it doesn't have any relevance. To them and their use case, it seems to have no relevance. But in a pure numbers perspective, aka a scientific one, then absolutely the inverter-draw is there whether there is a load or not. I think it should be called "inverter draw" instead of "idle draw". But they probably call it "idle draw" because the only time you can actually measure it is when there are no loads on the inverter, other than what the inverter consumes itself.

Does that seem to be along the lines in what I quoted of yours above? Or are you saying something somewhat different?

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

Does that seem to be along the lines in what I quoted of yours above? Or are you saying something somewhat different?

There will be additional overhead at larger power draws. For example, if you draw 2kW, the conversion (heat losses, etc.) do go up and will be in addition to the no-load draw. These can be substantial, for example (and I use datasheet here as reference, I don't have time to measure this) if you draw 1600W on the Multiplus II, you dissipate 139W as losses - the efficiency at this point is 92%. It's just that at low power draws, this particular inverter (pretty much) is the idle power. But, at e.g. 50W load, that's an efficiency of 82% (since 11W is dissipated).

 

[Tomthumb62]

There will be additional overhead at larger power draws. For example, if you draw 2kW, the conversion (heat losses, etc.) do go up and will be in addition to the no-load draw. These can be substantial, for example (and I use datasheet here as reference, I don't have time to measure this) if you draw 1600W on the Multiplus II, you dissipate 139W as losses - the efficiency at this point is 92%. It's just that at low power draws, this particular inverter (pretty much) is the idle power. But, at e.g. 50W load, that's an efficiency of 82% (since 11W is dissipated).

Awesome, thank you for explaining that. Makes a ton of sense. That 82% I can see why some electron-counters choose to pay the $$$$ for DC appliances vs. the lower upfront cost of using AC appliances on an inverter. But for our use case, we don't give a shit, because the system is big enough to account for that. By big enough, I mean to say, we have 4x100W of flexible panels flat-mounted on our camp trailer's roof. AC fridge cost us $250 (scratch and dent), Victron 12/1200 inverter $350, fridge draws an average of 60W. A 12v DC fridge goes for about $1200-1800USD.

 

[Zwy]

Base loads don't offset idle consumption.

The discussion was efficiency.

Victron diehards jump from one thing to another.

 

[Zwy]

3 days ago:

Not sure what's wrong with you guys. Literally his latest video.

So, I don't know what inverter that is but to issue a blanket statement that all HF inverters are the same because you saw someone test a HF inverter and it couldn't power a load is just wrong.

That is like saying all waffles are the same regardless if made from scratch or are Eggos from a box.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

The discussion was efficiency.

Victron diehards jump from one thing to another.

Except idle consumption and efficiency are related.

Better provide a link because I could not find it. It might be older than a few years which means it could be dated with changes in inverters.

Trying to preemptively dismiss any results not in your favor?

So, I don't know what inverter that is but to issue a blanket statement that all HF inverters are the same because you saw someone test a HF inverter and it couldn't power a load is just wrong.

It's a Giandel 4000W with a 8000W rated "surge."

That is like saying all waffles are the same regardless if made from scratch or are Eggos from a box.

Except that it's a well known issue that HF inverters that lack a large heavy transformer have substantially diminished surge capability. Yours claim a 13kW surge for 5 seconds, which is a more aggressive rating in that it gives a duration when most don't, and their surge is for one or two cycles of the AC sine wave (20-30ms).

 

[Brucey]

The discussion was efficiency.

Victron diehards jump from one thing to another.

Oh I didn't realize we were hand waving away idle consumption. Let's move the goalposts over to efficiency?

With zero load, efficiency is also zero? I.e your inverter is using 50W with no load. Producing nothing, but using 50W. Negative efficiency? Then with 50W of load you would be putting in 100W and getting 50W, so 50% efficiency.

 

[Brucey]

Trying to preemptively dismiss any results not in your favor?

"Older than a few years". Three days old is basically the same thing.

 

[Zwy]

If you have an inverter that consumes 100W by itself, that means that no matter what the load is, you have to have 2.4kWh per day on top of your usage just to run the inverter. If you have a base load of 300W, you have to take into account the inefficiencies of the conversion (so you want high efficiency) but you also have to add the 100W continuous on top no matter what your actual load is. For some this is not an issue. For others (with a cold, dark period in the year where solar is useless) it matters.

Doesn't matter in my case, I explained it in this post and it is 2.8% of my battery capacity.

That's what my original statement was and you replied to in #201. You asked there "Here is the big question. If the unit is putting out ac power for even a 50 to 100W load, is the consumption of the inverter still 10W?". You expressed doubt. Zero load I measured a few posts ago at 11.5W, and today I measured with a 200W load on it. From this, the efficiency sits at 94% including the self consumption - which means a dissipation of 12W, or 0.5W increase on top of the measured 11.5W self consumption measured at zero load. This, I might add, is better than the numbers in the Victron datasheet, likely because of the lower ambient temperature.

I gave my inverter consumption under normal household loads, that is real usage. Most of the self consumption is the display at low draw loads. I've noticed as loads increase the dissipation really doesn't increase much for my inverters so efficiency is higher. This is due to the HF. Self consumption remains pretty much the same thru the whole load range. I mentioned this aspect here.

The data sheet here shows the Victron dissipation increases quite a bit under higher loads over 1500W which this time of year I see most of the time running the heat pump with normal household loads.

To Victron's credit, they do publish the dissipation at various loads, it would be nice if the same info was available for other inverters such as Voltronic.

Point being, yes, at an added load, the self consumption stays the same and the efficiency matches what the datasheet says. In addition, the values reported to the portal by the inverter itself are not accurate (as expected): the accuracy of the AC and DC measurements in the inverter are not sufficient to measure these aspects.

Let's look at that efficiency from the data sheet. Not uncommon to see loads in my house run 1500W thru the day and evening. The Victron sheet shows 139W dissipation at 1600W. As my inverters are HF, the efficiency is stated at over 95% and from what I have seen, that is probably true. Both the LF and HF will run about the same efficiency at that load.

Once we see higher loads, the HF will outperform the LF in efficiency. You know this but many tend to either not know this or choose to ignore this aspect. As for surge loads, I have not found any household load in my house the HF inverters couldn't run including the 3/4hp well pump that does not have soft start.