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diy solar

What I'm learning about DIY Enphase and Hoymiles Microinverters

fromport said:
He mentioned at least once he signed up to be a reseller/installer for them.
Click to expand...
He said he's looking into it. I'm looking for somewhere that sells them, where I can see pricing. Looking to see the cost difference between them and Enphase. I was dead set on Enphase, but may consider another player
 
milehighassassin said:
He said he's looking into it. I'm looking for somewhere that sells them, where I can see pricing. Looking to see the cost difference between them and Enphase. I was dead set on Enphase, but may consider another player
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Enphase once had a double panel micro inverter DL380 and that is _the_ enphase model that breaks down the most.
4 of them I have in my setup died in the last year.
Simple thing: overheating.
Now imagine 4 instead of 2 micro inverters in 1 case.
If the short term money saving is worth it to you, go ahead. but I am not convinced yet.
With no legal US presence (yet) you are solely relying on the dealer/installer (none of the large distributors have embraced this product yet and it is out for more than a year) or you have to ship it back to .cn for a warranty claim.
Choose your battles wisely
 
Great info in this thread, thanks @ncsolarelectric
Currently planning a system for our home and the full install prices have been pretty high. Being a DIYer, its hard to let someone else do the work, particularly when I almost always seem to find issues afterward when I hire someone to do work. Will get in touch when we get to the point of buying equipment, the Hoymiles product sounds interesting, and I want to set it up like you have, grid-connected but with solar functional if the grid goes down.
 
So a guy installs emphases but is a solar salesman and doesn’t know their requirements but now he is a salesperson for another micro inverter brand that he has yet to install but is convinced it is the cat’s ?‍⬛ meow ?!
And he knows you are not supposed to sell on this site!
Kind of weird.
 
richwolf said:
So a guy installs emphases but is a solar salesman and doesn’t know their requirements but now he is a salesperson for another micro inverter brand that he has yet to install but is convinced it is the cat’s ?‍⬛ meow ?!
And he knows you are not supposed to sell on this site!
Kind of weird.
Click to expand...
I'm not a "solar salesman", I'm a shitty salesman. I'm an experienced engineer who knows how to design systems to save money and get a good ROI. I'm also an old man with sciatica who's in excruciating pain at the moment. I won't lie, I tell it like it is and if you can't keep up with me jumping from solar power to warp drive, well, that's not my fault. Enphase is excellent if you can afford it, but most of my customers can't so I found an alternative. What's wrong with that? Had I known about Hoymiles before I bought the Enphase system for myself, I could've saved a lot of money, along with a helluva lot less work and frustration for me. I like to have fun with it. Enphase U was not fun.

Best,
Todd
 
Thanks for sharing your experience, good to know. Wow. Enphase is garbage for DIY. Requiring a customer to become certified for the privilege of using their product? GTFO of here with that attitude, Enphase. I was planning to do 16 - 24 panel grid-tie with Enphase but now I will look elsewhere. I already have 9 of used IQ7 inverters that already have been commissioned. They work stand alone without Envoy. If I can get 8 more of them like that then I can complete my system. I will consider going with 48V DC coupled system using Tigo RSDs.
 
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richwolf said:
So a guy installs emphases but is a solar salesman and doesn’t know their requirements but now he is a salesperson for another micro inverter brand that he has yet to install but is convinced it is the cat’s ?‍⬛ meow ?!
And he knows you are not supposed to sell on this site!
Kind of weird.
Click to expand...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Will doesn't ban retailers from this site. I believe he is fine with a company presence here if the member is actually active on the website offering advice, suggestions, and comments, and NOT here solely to sell their wares. That's why the sales gals from Docan had their accounts deleted while Richard @ Signature Solar is still online and active here.

Salesmanship exists everywhere. We are responsible for separating the crap from the nuggets of gold, are we not?
 
AntronX said:
Enphase is garbage for DIY. Requiring a customer to become certified for the privilege of using their product? GTFO of here with that attitude, Enphase.
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I don't agree with you about that.
If you try to compare the hoymiles inverters to any enphase product, it should be the iq7 range.
Except Enphase has learned not to combine multiple microinverters into 1 unit (when they did with the D380 == 2xM190 they failed because thermal conditions). So where hoymiles combines up to 4 in 1 package, with Enphase you have 4 seperate units.
AntronX said:
I was planning to do 16 - 24 panel grid-tie with Enphase but now I will look elsewhere. I already have 9 of used IQ7 inverters that already have been commissioned. They work stand alone without Envoy. If I can get 8 more of them like that then I can complete my system. I will consider going with 48V DC coupled system using Tigo RSDs.
Click to expand...
As you experienced, IQ7's can be provisioned without envoy and without any certificates. Since the current Hoymiles are similar you won't need to get certified to provision them as well.
Since the IQ8 series is capable of provisioning a micro grid, with or without batteries, things get much more complicated.
1) you need an IQ gateway (formerly known as Envoy) to set grid profile according to where you are.
2) The NEC demands that in case of micro grid forming capabilities, breakers that can carry a voltage are bolted down on the bus bar.
Enphase wants to make sure whoever installs that new generation equipment understand the new rules and setup a _free_ course in order to explain and test the understanding of the material. I had a customer that insisted on IQ8 (she had done her own research) and at that point I was not certified to provision them. Took the course and about a week later I was able to provision my first IQ8's.
I now have a customer that it interested in enphase storage as well. Hence I started following all courses online and then went to a 1 day hands-on (free) course and am now certified to provision that too. So I took the test before buying/installing stuff. Not like a certain other person did: buy equipment first and then get the knowledge of why/how things are supposed to work

If/when Hoymiles will make their next gen microinverters that are also capable of micro grid forming, whoever installs that (you or an installer) needs to be aware about the same rules. I think Enphase is paving the way and yet you call it "attitude".
Best of luck with the expansion of your system. Why won't you go Hoymiles for your next 8 panels?
They seem to be a lot cheaper according to a certain person selling them here on the forum.
 
fromport said:
I don't agree with you about that.
If you try to compare the hoymiles inverters to any enphase product, it should be the iq7 range.
Except Enphase has learned not to combine multiple microinverters into 1 unit (when they did with the D380 == 2xM190 they failed because thermal conditions). So where hoymiles combines up to 4 in 1 package, with Enphase you have 4 seperate units.

As you experienced, IQ7's can be provisioned without envoy and without any certificates. Since the current Hoymiles are similar you won't need to get certified to provision them as well.
Since the IQ8 series is capable of provisioning a micro grid, with or without batteries, things get much more complicated.
1) you need an IQ gateway (formerly known as Envoy) to set grid profile according to where you are.
2) The NEC demands that in case of micro grid forming capabilities, breakers that can carry a voltage are bolted down on the bus bar.
Enphase wants to make sure whoever installs that new generation equipment understand the new rules and setup a _free_ course in order to explain and test the understanding of the material. I had a customer that insisted on IQ8 (she had done her own research) and at that point I was not certified to provision them. Took the course and about a week later I was able to provision my first IQ8's.
I now have a customer that it interested in enphase storage as well. Hence I started following all courses online and then went to a 1 day hands-on (free) course and am now certified to provision that too. So I took the test before buying/installing stuff. Not like a certain other person did: buy equipment first and then get the knowledge of why/how things are supposed to work

If/when Hoymiles will make their next gen microinverters that are also capable of micro grid forming, whoever installs that (you or an installer) needs to be aware about the same rules. I think Enphase is paving the way and yet you call it "attitude".
Best of luck with the expansion of your system. Why won't you go Hoymiles for your next 8 panels?
They seem to be a lot cheaper according to a certain person selling them here on the forum.
Click to expand...
Hoymiles makes a 300W and 350W single microinverter that is cheaper than an IQ7, and temperature rise shouldn't be a concern there but they test them underwater at 85C, so I'm not too worried about it. Also, as an engineer, just because Enphase got it wrong with the D380 12 years ago, doesn't mean it can't be done right. 12 years ago the most popular inverter was a SATCON. You forgot to mention that if you provision IQ7's without the IQ Gateway, the Enphase warranty is voided. Hoymiles has no such clause, their DTU is optional, and the internet is optional. After speaking with them a week or so ago, They said that had no plans for a microgrid forming microinverter. There are plenty of alternative off-grid inverters like an AIMS inverter/charger or EG4 to provide battery backup microgrid, and some of them can even work without batteries like an IQ8. What I like most about Enphase is the design and concept of their IQ Batteries and the ability to control them to maximize self-consumption. Now that I've got it working, it's slick! But compared to EG4, it's way too pricey and I wish I had waited until I had learned more. I jumped the gun, but y'all get to benefit from my learning experience. Why gripe? I share to help others, not "just" to vent my frustration, but that too. Happy 4th!
 
It has been brought up here as a "bad idea" to put 2 microinverters together as Enphase did with the D380 from 11+ years ago. It was 380W in one package. It had dimensions of 12.25" x 6" x 1.33".

Currently, the Enphase IQ8H is 380W in one package. It has dimensions of 8.3" x 6.9" x 1.2". Smaller and denser than its dual predecessor. So even Enphase learned from their mistakes.

The latest Hoymiles HMS-1000-2T-NA is 958W. It has dimensions 10.27" x 7.09" x 1.22", which is about 24% larger than an IQ8 and it's all heatsink, not plastic.

The Quad HMS-2000-4T-NA is 1918W. It has dimensions of 13.03" x 8.58" x 1.44", and again it's all heatsink, not plastic.

Given the reliability data they shared on the HM and HMS inverters, I'm convinced they will be reliable and far more so than a D380 from 11 years ago.

Enphase-D380.jpgDual_HMS_3x2-removebg-preview.png
 
ncsolarelectric said:
You forgot to mention that if you provision IQ7's without the IQ Gateway, the Enphase warranty is voided. Hoymiles has no such clause, their DTU is optional, and the internet is optional.
Click to expand...

You forgot to mention it is illegal to hookup those Hoymiles here in california when the Rule21 grid config is not configured.
So here in Cali you will need (at least once) to hookup a DTU.

ncsolarelectric said:
There are plenty of alternative off-grid inverters like an AIMS inverter/charger or EG4 to provide battery backup microgrid, and some of them can even work without batteries like an IQ8.
Click to expand...
If you have Time-of-Use and you have storage you could during high rate times use your battery to select "zero usage" from the grid.
Eg: if your home uses 1000 watt, 1000 watts will be provided by the batteries zo make the meter show zero.
And we are talking about a whole house solution with the IQ8 & batteries.
Afaik the EG4 and aims are not grid tied as it they can deliver back to the grid. They have a load side that you can hook essential loads to that can be fed from the battery, but not the whole house.
 
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ncsolarelectric said:
Hoymiles makes a 300W and 350W single microinverter that is cheaper than an IQ7, and temperature rise shouldn't be a concern there but they test them underwater at 85C, so I'm not too worried about it. Also, as an engineer, just because Enphase got it wrong with the D380 12 years ago, doesn't mean it can't be done right. 12 years ago the most popular inverter was a SATCON. You forgot to mention that if you provision IQ7's without the IQ Gateway, the Enphase warranty is voided. Hoymiles has no such clause, their DTU is optional, and the internet is optional. After speaking with them a week or so ago, They said that had no plans for a microgrid forming microinverter. There are plenty of alternative off-grid inverters like an AIMS inverter/charger or EG4 to provide battery backup microgrid, and some of them can even work without batteries like an IQ8. What I like most about Enphase is the design and concept of their IQ Batteries and the ability to control them to maximize self-consumption. Now that I've got it working, it's slick! But compared to EG4, it's way too pricey and I wish I had waited until I had learned more. I jumped the gun, but y'all get to benefit from my learning experience. Why gripe? I share to help others, not "just" to vent my frustration, but that too. Happy 4th!
Click to expand...
From:
www.mcelectrical.com.au

Hoymiles Microinverter Review | Hoymiles vs Enphase Showdown

Hoymiles vs Enphase Microinverter Showdown | Technical Review - After huge growth in the USA solar market, they set their sites on Australia.
www.mcelectrical.com.au www.mcelectrical.com.au

Hoymiles got up to 77 degrees internally. (celsius)
It was only a 1 to 1 power ratio, on tilt frames, on a 25-degree spring day. If that little black box lasts past its warranty period, I’ll be mighty impressed.
Now compare that to the Enphase microinverter which continually ran at least 10 degrees cooler. So the rule of thumb in Electronics, aka “Arrhenius’s Equation” would say that the Enphase microinverter will last twice as long. If you’re concerned about longevity, the Hoymiles inverter runs ridiculously hot. I think I’s reasonable to be concerned about the Hoymiles inverter failing.
Click to expand...

So on a day with 40C ambient, I am pretty sure the temperature of the microinverter will go over the 85C you mentioned in water.
The water prevents spot heat build up, so in hot air the temp will be even worse imo.
 
fromport said:
So on a day with 40C ambient, I am pretty sure the temperature of the microinverter will go over the 85C you mentioned in water.
The water prevents spot heat build up, so in hot air the temp will be even worse imo.
Click to expand...
Hoymiles specs say these can operate at up to 65C ambient temperature, and the warranty is intact. Enphase is only 60C. I've done a lot of projects in the California central valley in desert areas like Lost Hills and Dos Palos, on the ground and on metal roofs. I've monitored temperatures there inside closed metal boxes in direct sunlight and the maximum I've ever seen inside the box was 70C. Outside, it could be 40C, but these inverters are rated for that.

Are you aware of the ratings for SiC Diodes and MOSFETs? Or are you still thinking in terms of silicon from 15-20 years ago? Those things can have junction temperatures approaching 200C!
 
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fromport said:
You forgot to mention it is illegal to hookup those Hoymiles here in california when the Rule21 grid config is not configured.
So here in Cali you will need (at least once) to hookup a DTU.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure that's true. I'll be taking the 30-minute training for setting up a DTU, but I've done over 300 sites in CA, and "grid-config" is product specific. Rule 21 requires certain behaviors that are already built into the inverter. It's not external software that controls them with any inverters. Enphase uploads the data to the inverter, but most inverters my crews have installed don't require an upload to meet Rule 21, and I don't think Hoymiles does either. They are CEC Approved for use in CA, and a DTU is not required.
Even if you're correct, so what? The DTU-Pro is less than half the cost of the Envoy + Comm module, and Hoymiles has a DTU-Lite that is a very low-cost USB stick as an option too. If an installer needs to carry a USB stick in his pocket to finish an install, that sounds pretty easy to me.

fromport said:
If you have Time-of-Use and you have storage you could during high rate times use your battery to select "zero usage" from the grid.
Eg: if your home uses 1000 watt, 1000 watts will be provided by the batteries zo make the meter show zero.
And we are talking about a whole house solution with the IQ8 & batteries.
Afaik the EG4 and aims are not grid tied as it they can deliver back to the grid. They have a load side that you can hook essential loads to that can be fed from the battery, but not the whole house.
Click to expand...
EG4 and AIMS "can't" deliver power to the grid, they are not grid-tied. That is correct, but that does not prevent them from supplying power to the whole house. Both of them are a better option for a whole-home inverter because they can output 50A. In most small homes, 50A is the size of the largest breaker in the panel, and that's (technically) what is required for sizing a whole-home inverter per code. With an Enphase IQ system, you would need 3 x Battery 10T's + 1 x Battery 3T to get 50 Amps of inverter output for a whole-home backup PLUS it requires the Envoy, a cell modem, and the System Controller 2.

At my cost, the Enphase battery for a 50A inverter would be over $27,000 wholesale. That's 53.6 kWh of energy storage.
An equivalent EG4 battery system would be $2600 (2 inv) + $15,500 for 10 batteries (51.2 kWh) and racking, and a few other parts comes to around $18,000. With EG4 however, I could choose to have only 4 batteries, or 6. With Enphase, you have no choice in the size of the battery relative to the inverter. It's $27,000 no matter what you do if you want to size the inverters to run a whole-home backup system at 50A. They gotcha by the tail, their whole business model is designed to rope you in and then require you to buy things that you don't need. I like choice!

IMO and I admit it openly, their Sunlight Backup System is a lure (gateway drug) that hooked me like a fish into buying everything but the battery to save cost, which then locked me into using their batteries in the future at the expensive cost I just mentioned. Smart business acumen for sure.
 
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fromport said:
Marketing is an instrument.
You are doing the same by posting your pricelist here.
Everything for a buck it seems.
Click to expand...
And what's your point of being here, pointing out flaws in others for fun and practice?

First off, I haven't installed a system in CA since 2018, so I see things have changed. My bad, I was not aware of it. Oo no, another flaw. Crap.
 
ncsolarelectric said:
Another sunny day was lost. I spoke to Enphsae today. It seems that I don't need to go to hands-on training after all. Yeah! But, I need to submit a design review of my single line. I already finished all of the Installer Certification training courses including storage. However, I can't submit a design review! First, I need to pass their Storage "Design" Certification course. A 4th certification is still required to turn on my system. AFTER another 2+ hours of courses, then I have to submit a design review and wait for their approval before I can proceed to turn on my system. If anyone ever suggests using Enphase to me again, I may explode. They own the system, not me. I have no control and someday, maybe they will allow me to operate the $12k solar system I purchased.
Click to expand...
This is exactly what happened to me. I have a System Controller 2 hanging on the house, uncommissioned until I submit my SLD and other miscellany. I'm still steaming about that.
 
Cubedweller said:
This is exactly what happened to me. I have a System Controller 2 hanging on the house, uncommissioned until I submit my SLD and other miscellany. I'm still steaming about that.
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Try to cool off. It's like going through an airport. Just give them the details they want and you're on your way. It's just time consuming and frustrating. Next time, Hoymiles. I've already got mine on order.
 
ncsolarelectric said:
Try to cool off. It's like going through an airport. Just give them the details they want and you're on your way. It's just time consuming and frustrating. Next time, Hoymiles. I've already got mine on order.
Click to expand...
Thanks. I still have another 14 microinverters or one string inverter to purchase. I have 14 IQ8+s at the moment, but deciding to buy 14 more is problematic. And I hope the AT&T provisioned modem they are sending me works here in Western NC. It's all they had, so that's what they are sending me, no option to backorder until Verizon or T-Mobile units get back in stock. But hey, I have 30 days (from order date) to return it. So really 21 days if it arrives when it's supposed to.
 
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