What makes the tier 1 stuff “better”?

[Nan_wpg]

When Handy Bon Solar said 4 awg doesn't fit well, he lost me. #4 fits fine. Makes me doubt everything else he says, when something simple like that gets called out as a problem for him.

Also, it does include a manual now.
I've never heard the fans on mine, but I'm running it at low power, so not likely to need cooling.

Would you be able to fit #2? you havent had any of the issues he did?

it’s possible they had a bad production run, or they’ve improved.

 

[400bird]

I don't have any #2 handy, but they are listed for #4, so I doubt #2 would fit.

I've had 0 issues. I'm running lithium batteries, so equalization, which he really got worked up about, doesn't apply to me.

 

[OffGridInTheCity]

2015 MIDNITE CLASSIC PROBLEMS

Here we are in 2015 and too much in the solar world stays the same. It is time for me to say something about my experience with the MidNite Solar Classic. Realize that I do not take this step ligh…

handybobsolar.wordpress.com

that’s the page on the classic. He’s got a bunch of other stuff. I,used,his info years ago when I first got into solar.

The 4awg welding cable (100s of small strands) do take a steady hand to fit into 4awg sockets but it worked OK for me. One can also use ferrules to help make it go easier.

Arc Fault went off on 2 of 3 of my Classics with default settings - but a small sensitivity tweak of 11 to 12 or maybe 10 to 12 smoothed it out. I'm glad to have this feature. It can also be disabled if you don't want the feature or to bother learning about it.


Fans - yes there are fans and there are fan kits and they make some noise - no doubt.

Equalize - I'm lithium-ion and don't use but all the other settings work exactly as advertised.

Efficiency - as advertised as far as I can tell. I know my overall loss and assuming the Midnites are 2% then the other losses are easily accounted for. I don't see the Classics as standing out as a problem in the overall efficiency so I believe their specs.

After 4.5 years of continuous operation and 68,551kwh PV incoming (~22,850kwh per Classic 150) no problems or failures to date.

Support - See this thread I did recently as a shout-out to *fantastic* support - https://diysolarforum.com/threads/shout-out-to-excellent-midnite-tech-support.49111/

Are Classics perfect? - no, but is anything perfect? So far, these have been the most reliable part of my off-grid system and I'd defend them as a Tier 1 level of equipment / recommend them for component based off-grid design.

 

[400bird]

If you've got questions for Midnite, they are a member here. You could shoot up the bat symbol (put an @ in front of "SpongeboB SineWave"), if you've got any direct questions, he'll probably answer them.

I called Midnite support for a possibility unrelated issue. They happily worked through their side with me and we verified everything on their charge controller was great. The entire call lasted less than 5 minutes, I don't even think I was put on hold or into a queue.

 

[Nan_wpg]

ive Read lots about midnige support. All of it good. (Except for Handybob). Couple cabins on my lake have MidNite gear. No issues.

support definately is of value and a part of “top tier”

*price, quality, service…. Pick 2. Grandfather always blurted that out to me.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

usually suggest Epever because users on this site tend to be penny-pinchers that cann't see past W/$. The suggestions for the high-end, tier-1 products that I myself buy are generally not well-received.

Welllll… some of us penny pinchers have different motives than W/$ but it comes off that way.
I personally appreciate your explanations though I may disagree with your conclusions. Doesn’t mean you’re wrong or I’m right empirically- not at all. In fact I’d say in a stratospheric view your advice is appropriate.

Nevertheless, my tendency for leaning ‘cheaper’ is predicated most often by my read of the OP intentions and goals with whatever context they presented.

Often their stated goals are not achievable within their economic mobility; or they don’t know what to think about to make their systems function as they wish. Discussion of lower-shelf products nearly always devolves to their limitations or negatives which is great because then they can make an informed, educated decision.

Also often: people in general are unaware they are not discerning - or otherwise are somehow unable to discern- the difference between wants, needs, and wishes. So their product research gets falsely focused on products they think they can afford rather than figuring out a plan and goal to complete- because their goal is actually a wish/want. So they wind up with cloudy judgement because they operate in the realm of ‘want’ rather than “intent.” So recommending good track record mid- and lower-shelf products helps them arrive at workable solutions without having to develop critical thinking skills without much notice.

The suggestions for the high-end, tier-1 products that I myself buy are generally not well-received.

Which probably is in a metaphorical fashion a parallel behavior to confirmation bias for those who resist tier1 products.

At the same time I probably have some “behavior guilt” myself ??
Though I’d have to ask, “do you blame me?”

Other than all my wiring&cabling which is top shelf - and realistically my solar panels are quality- I’ve had zero functional failures with the mid/lower shelf products I operate with (well other than the known bug of high-voltage spike and cutout with Epever SCCs which probably doesn’t or won’t show up with LiFePo systems due to LiFePo’s charging profile).

I just want people to make informed decisions and not just go cheap or go high and sell a kidney merely based on dollars. The dollars are what they are once you have something that will meet an actual intent. I’d interpret your advice as seeking that end as well.

 

[Mattb4]

i,honeslty don’t understand much of all that, but it does sound like I should avoid the China AIO units.

No reason to if you understand the limitations. In all products there are differences in quality. Sometimes that is priced based but not always since you have those that sell to the well healed crowd based on snob value. Basically if a product meets your needs and your budget than it is a good product. You do not need a Tesla when a Chevy will get you there cheaper.

The thing to understand about these Chinese made electrical items is you can not believe their max ratings. Keep it below that by a hefty margin and it should be much more reliable. There are some products however that are simply junk and for that public usage and reviews can help you sort the wheat from the chaff.

Problem with finding a good time tested product is you have to wait for the time to pass. By then the company has changed the design or gone out of business. Build a really good product, saturate the market, no repeat business. Used to be pyramids were all the rage and finding supplies and builders were easy. Have you tried to find a pyramid company lately?

 

[JJJJ]

At the end of the day one performs their own due diligence in a build.

I once owned a Chevy Vega. It started every day, allowed me to perform my errands and get to work every day. Yes it had its issues but so has every car I have owned since.

There are a quite a few satisfied customers using a very wide range of products. The bottom line, they meet the needs of the user. Yes there are brand loyalties but that is to be expected.

I currently own a different model car with many, many miles on it. It has its own personality but allows me to get to where I am going.

I personally chose products from two different vendors. Both happen to be Tier 1. That was a personal choice. If you watch Wills videos he has a number of All in one units that continue to do the job.

At the end of the day I see basic questions. Has the build included safety measures such as proper wiring, fuses, breakers and switches?

While I have enjoyed a few videos I bounced my specs against the group and incorporated important safety measures. I personally tend to overbuild, sometimes to a fault but it helps me sleep better at night. I have a friend who is a mechanic whose approach is less robust but has a much stronger level of experience and knows exactly what is needed.

There are a lot of working products out there with many satisfied customers. Like a car each product has its own personality. At the end of the day customers like them because they meet their needs.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

if a product meets your needs and your budget than it is a good product.

If it continues to meet one’s needs great; I’m not convinced that means it’s a good product necessarily.

By then the company has changed the design or gone out of business. Build a really good product, saturate the market, no repeat business.

I’m not convinced of that, at all.

Electrolux vacuums survived on repeat and new sales for generations. Revereware pots and pans still have a following. Samuel Adams brewing has a loyal following. King Arthur Flour sells at a premium. Stanley tools are treasured by collectors of antiques, and since they no longer produce legacy-quality tools other brands absorbed that market. From WW2 through the 1970s the VW survived as an inexpensive eminently serviceable automobile. KLH sold millions of ‘hi-fi’ units in the 1950s-1960s. Shure microphones saturated and expanded the market for microphones and public address audio. Snapon ain’t going out of business anytime soon. Sears used to nearly own the department store and catalogue segment. Honda motorcycles ran forever. Jeep 6-cylinder motors would run 300k miles with proper maintenance before that was a thing. Stearns and Foster captured home furnishings. Altec Lansing led the way building soeakers for the exploding theatre and venue market. The Model T revolutized the burgeoning- and immature- automobile industry to the point that the millions that were sold have left us today with inexpensive used and even new parts to repair, service, and rebuild them.

A quality product in a capitalist economy is not doomed to the sunset.

 

[MichaelK]

Welllll… some of us penny pinchers have different motives than W/$ but it comes off that way.

Perhaps I could have worded that better. Sorry about that! I myself am a penny pincher also.

Just about all the clothing I wear into the office is stuff I bought at the flea market for a dollar. But, it far easier to judge the quality of stuff in your hands, then it is looking at an online sales site. When I pick up a pair of Dockers that are apparently new, I am reasonablely confident that the pair of pants in my hands are actually Dockers. And I walk out tickled that I got a great pair of pants for just a dollar.

That's not the case with online purchases of electronics. Unless you rip off the cover and actually look at the electronics you have no idea what you are actually getting. And unless you are an engineer like RCinFL, you can't make an informed decision about what you are buying.

Sadly, there's no version of "consumer reviews" I'm aware of that reviews solar electronics specifically. Luckily, we have this site which includes so many knowledgeable people. We ourselves have to tell others when stuff is poorly designed, or being made with substandard parts that barely make it out of the warranty period. That's assuming there's no loopholes to avoid honoring the warranty to begin with. And that doesn't even cover the "fake" products with the label MPPT on them.

So, when someone bases their decisions solely on W/$, what are you supposed to say? You see these people on the site almost every day, shaking their heads, asking why their dirt-cheap unit is not performing as expected. I have to say that my personal observation is that people don't respond appreciativly to "you bought a fake unit", in response to their questions.

So far, my best response to knowing when a unit is fake is to look at the shipping weight. That to me seems pretty lame.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

my best response to knowing when a unit is fake is to look at the shipping weight. That to me seems pretty lame.

I have bought stereo equipment, computers, jeep winches, welders, and tool boxes based on higher weight.

That’s a pretty good gauge for some products!

 

[SparkyJJO]

I have bought stereo equipment, computers, jeep winches, welders, and tool boxes based on higher weight.

That’s a pretty good gauge for some products!

Until you find the box is full of concrete.

I seem to recall seeing a battery teardown not that long ago that had a small battery in a bigger box full of concrete to make it seem more legit.

 

[Mattb4]

If it continues to meet one’s needs great; I’m not convinced that means it’s a good product necessarily.

I’m not convinced of that, at all.

Electrolux vacuums survived on repeat and new sales for generations. Revereware pots and pans still have a following. Samuel Adams brewing has a loyal following. King Arthur Flour sells at a premium. Stanley tools are treasured by collectors of antiques, and since they no longer produce legacy-quality tools other brands absorbed that market. From WW2 through the 1970s the VW survived as an inexpensive eminently serviceable automobile. KLH sold millions of ‘hi-fi’ units in the 1950s-1960s. Shure microphones saturated and expanded the market for microphones and public address audio. Snapon ain’t going out of business anytime soon. Sears used to nearly own the department store and catalogue segment. Honda motorcycles ran forever. Jeep 6-cylinder motors would run 300k miles with proper maintenance before that was a thing. Stearns and Foster captured home furnishings. Altec Lansing led the way building soeakers for the exploding theatre and venue market. The Model T revolutized the burgeoning- and immature- automobile industry to the point that the millions that were sold have left us today with inexpensive used and even new parts to repair, service, and rebuild them.

A quality product in a capitalist economy is not doomed to the sunset.

Just about all that you name are no longer around, have changed models, or now sell crappy stuff (Snap On). I will grant that Honda has maintained a good reputation (not that all their products have been great some models have less than sterling history) but Sears? Model T?

You failed to refute my generalization. It is hard to find things to last the test of time until time has tested it. And one has to be careful of the Survivor Bias effect.

 

[Checkthisout]

You got a lot of replies! Good question.

Ignoring the technical side,


You'll find that the renogy is just rebadged stuff. You'll see the exact same controller under "powmr" and a few others I can't think of. Even epever rebadges at least some of their stuff. They aren't doing their own design and engineering. They are just going through the Chinese catalog and selecting what colors and logo style they want put on their 100,000 unit order of 40 amp charge controllers.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

catalog and selecting what colors and logo style they want put on their 100,000 unit order of 40 amp charge controllers

…when one orders such you can also spec some internals. Epever clones I don’t think are that widespread otherwise (I’m stretching here) there would be other ‘brands’ recognized for functionality and longevity, would there not? I don’t know… the world is strange and we can only choose the best we can when things are obscured by purchase orders.

Just about all that you name are no longer around

??? Ford, Stearns & Foster, VW, Aerus(formerly electrolux)

have changed models, or now sell crappy stuff but Sears? Model T?
You failed to refute my generalization.

Definitely refuted it.
Sears had more than a century of success and the quick assembly to delivery time of the Model T helped drive innovation in other brands to such a degree that low price and quality for the T became irrelevant by the time competitors forced the Model A and Model B. And their manufacturing prowess is how Ford wound up with the most substantial initial contract for manufacturing the General Purpose vehicle in World War II

It is hard to find things to last the test of time until time has tested it

Engineering can predict service life of virtually everything. That’s one reason why passenger airliners don’t continuously fall out of the sky- they predict lifecycle and maintenance inspections based on calculated expectations and assume predictions at a base level below the margin of error. The @RCinFLA quotes above describe many shortcuts that can interrupt service life, and also qualify design elements that are improvements.

be careful of the Survivorship Bias effect.

Saying that we don’t know about failures? We don’t know about non-failures with any more surety.

Epever for example has a large group of failures reported AND has a larger - much larger- reporting of successes. Expanding wider than its own brand subset, it compares well against low and mid tier products like renogy and some others. While that’s not empirical stats, and with recognition that complaints are more likely to be voiced than successes, one can rationally conclude that the volume of anecdotal reporting is indicative of facts.

They aren't doing their own design and engineering.

Then that is why they apparently don’t have the ability to fix their software bug, and make the relatively small number of changes that could propel them to Tier 1 status?

 

[Checkthisout]

 

[Nan_wpg]

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So basically buy whatever’s the cheapest for that particular product.

I have a Morningstar suresign 300 watt inverter (older model not the newly released one). I’m not smart at all when it comes to electronics but the suresine is a tank like product. It just feels, and looks like it’s a quality product.

I used to think the same for magnum (going purely on magnum products I see at the lake) but even magnum is apparently slipping in quality, or at least service.

 

[Bvillebob]

To answer the OP's original question, what's the difference? Ask anyone who has had anything manufactured in China. You work out the contract, agree to terms, take delivery, all is good. Next shipment you notice that the capacitors you specify have been substituted for cheaper ones, contract manufacturer says too bad, just as good, and he pockets extra money. Now you're hooked, and you constantly find that that the manufacturer is is finding ways to cut corners and improve their margins and you're stuck with it. The first time you see a room full of a few dozen people taking components off recycled circuit boards to be used on new products you'll understand just how far it can go. Sorry if offends some of the more sensitive people here, but as someone who's been in manufacturing for more than 30 years, it's the simple truth I've seen with my own eyes.

Also, I'm another person who has had 3 of the Midnite Classics running 24/7 for years without an issue, putting out 100 percent of their rated power without complaining. My SCC are made in the US, my inverters in Taiwan (Samlex), and I've been very happy with all of them. I can't imagine trying to power my home and shop with stuff off Aliexpress.

 

[Checkthisout]

To answer the OP's original question, what's the difference? Ask anyone who has had anything manufactured in China. You work out the contract, agree to terms, take delivery, all is good. Next shipment you notice that the capacitors you specify have been substituted for cheaper ones, contract manufacturer says too bad, just as good, and he pockets extra money. Now you're hooked, and you constantly find that that the manufacturer is is finding ways to cut corners and improve their margins and you're stuck with it. The first time you see a room full of a few dozen people taking components off recycled circuit boards to be used on new products you'll understand just how far it can go. Sorry if offends some of the more sensitive people here, but as someone who's been in manufacturing for more than 30 years, it's the simple truth I've seen with my own eyes.

Also, I'm another person who has had 3 of the Midnite Classics running 24/7 for years without an issue, putting out 100 percent of their rated power without complaining. My SCC are made in the US, my inverters in Taiwan (Samlex), and I've been very happy with all of them. I can't imagine trying to power my home and shop with stuff off Aliexpress.

Just got a victron 24/3000. It's new but abused off ebay.

Been playing around with the settings, loading it, changing charge and a/c input limits etc.

Yikes! What a nice piece of equipment. Easy to use and program too.

 

[jamiegreen]

In my opinion the cheaper products sold by renogy, powmr etc don't even come close to being in the same category as brands such as Morningstar, midnite, outback and victron to name a few, literally no comparison.

Most of those Chinese brands are as said above, just relabelled generic chargers. If you go onto a site like Alibaba and click on one of the first cheap controllers that show up and scroll down slightly, you'll see "Item Customisation" where a large company (such as renogy) can order thousands of quantities and the generic company will print their logo on the product, and then you the end user just pay a premium (compared to the bulk price) for the name but still receive a subpar product.

Which if your just toying around will small systems for basic tasks or just experimenting that's fine, you may not want to spend $$$ on a non critical system.

That brings me to the good stuff though, when your system is actually serving a critical purpose such as whole house power, marine setups, grid tied system, why would you possibly want to cheap out? A critical system failure in some of these scenarios could be dire. Another point is safety, is your setup (whether big or small) being run in your house? Do you trust a cheaply mass produced product which has the ability to cause serious fire risk to operate 24/7 when you and your family sleep?

I can't personally speak for midnite and outback other than their obviously great reputation, I have no doubt they are top tier equipment. What I can speak for is Morningstar and Victron. My Victron products (inverter/charger, bmv, CCGX) are around 10 years old now and have run 24/7 FLAWLESSLY. Never let me down and they don't have an easy life, I push the inverter to and over it's limits often. Would a Chinese hybrid inverter be able to do that..? I don't know, they haven't been around all that long but the amount of posts about their faults doesn't make me believe they would, but I'll happily be proved wrong.

My Morningstar is only a couple years old, it's a 60a MPPT. Again, faultless. These are products I know I could go on holiday for a month and come back to a perfectly working system (I'm completely off grid) I don't worry about them, I don't have to check up on them, and the lights never go out.

I've never had to contact Morningstar customer service, but I've heard brilliant things about them, take a look at another post on this forum -

"My primary TS-45 had 113,496 hours on the job, and had been through two sets of deep cycle batteries. That is just under 13 years of service. The backup was only in service for a short period, and I really don't know what happened to it to make it fault. Both units were long out of warranty. The fact that Pete replaced either one is amazing to me, but he decided to get me fully back in service by replacing both!"

A rare occurrence of a failure on 13 year old units well out of warranty, and the company didn't even hesitate to send out new units at their own cost, now I'm not saying they'll do that for everyone! But as an example you just can't fault the service.

Moral of the story is.. in my opinion, if your just getting into solar and don't want to spend big bucks the cheaper Chinese stuff may be for you, it's a learning curve.

If your serious about a system, and want it to last, and particularly if it's inside of your house, or your need to rely on the system for critical loads, don't cheap out.