"Why I think it is illogical to purchase an electric truck"

[aenyc]

Might be a bit of exaggeration here.

Sounds like they could have used body filler and paint but the owner wants a whole new side panel instead in order to "maintain value".

I think its all about insurance.
I had my insurance company wanted to total my totally fine Q5 TDI after a minor accident. Their official line was that they were afraid a shop could not properly repair a diesel car, so it was cheaper for them to total (The actual repair cost estimate was less than their "totalled" payout). I had to argue with them for a few month to ensure title will remain clean after i said i will keep the car for a lesser (2/3) payout. Found a shop that repaired the damage (as i said it was minor) for about 1/2 of the sum i recieved and the car is still going strong (Getting close to 36 MPG for a powerful V6 diesel (with fully loaded car and loaded roof top box), around 42 with just myself.
But this was for a 2014 model (incident last year, so the car was almost 9 years old). I take it the Rivian owner wanted certified repair, so he had to pay the high price. Insurance companies are raising rates for everyone to accomodate EV owners unfortunately.

 

[MurphyGuy]

"Shocking Number": Rivian Owner Sees $42,000 Repair Bill For Minor Accident | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

I guess these EVs are not all they are supposed to be with current tech

I see the Russian advocate is still posting for Putin.

 

[RV8R]

Lets have a discussion here

While I agree with many of @Will Prowse points in the Video about what a Truck should be used for.
Most people don't use them the intended way:

Most Truck Owners Probably Don't Need a Full-Size Pickup

Americans love their full-size pickup trucks, but do they actually use them?

www.motorbiscuit.com

"from 250,000 persons, 75% of truck owners use their truck to tow about once a year and just 35% of owners actually haul something more than once a year. "

Lets phrase it that way, electric trucks are great for people which don't user their truck as a truck. Which are the vast majority of private truck owners.

I've Pre-Ordered the F150 Lightning during the presentation when they started showing the Bi-directional support for powering a house.
I did the math - and with tax and local incentives I can get a the 98kWh in the lightning for roughly $400-450 per kWh. - compare this with Server-Racks which are in the $300s for 1 kWH + Inverters you end up very close to the the $400/kwH - so buying the truck - just as Giant Battery Backup - was a no brainer to me.

I got a Gas-Pickup - and every time I drive it - something is in the bed or a trailer is behind it - but I don't drive far the truck mostly sits and gets 3-4k miles a year. I got an ancient cheap Motorhome which is far more comfortable for longer trips.

Lets get ready to rumble:
interested in your opinions about EV-Trucks - what use-case do they makes sense? For me it's great huge battery with enough truck capability.

Thanks for the Thread, as I find it interesting.

As your original post is long ago, did you buy your EV F150 ?

My opinions & economics are more inline with Wills.

 

[eXodus]

Thanks for the Thread, as I find it interesting.

As your original post is long ago, did you buy your EV F150 ?

I was almost there, was at the dealer and test-driving, Amazing truck, then sit down for paperwork.
from the time my Pre-order went in - the truck DOUBLED in price. When I signed up it was $39k - by the time with all the bogus fees and other dealer "incentives" my truck was at $76k out the door so I walked away.

Classic ICE car dealers are pretty hostile against EVs, brand independent. Happened to me when I bought a Toyota Prius in the early 2000s, again when I tried to buy a BMW i3 in the 2010s and now again when I tried to buy a Ford EV truck.

Every time I want a EV I have to wait until it hits the used market 3 years later. Buying a EV in the used market is super simple - pay money - get car. I hope all car brands built EV-only dealerships. Not interested in the opinion of a gearhead salesman when I buy a car without gears.



Currently I drive a 20 year old Dodge Pickup and recently I pre-ordered the RAM Ramcharger and RAM REV. Maybe Stellantis gets their dealerships in line to efficiently sale EVs.

Further I am backing Edison Motors with their Pickup Conversion Kits: https://www.edisonmotors.ca/edison-pickup-kit

I am still very interested in a Electric truck, but the current Dealer landscape just makes it too painful for me to buy one. I wait until I find one on craigslist or have to built my own.

 

[D71]

I was almost there, was at the dealer and test-driving, Amazing truck, then sit down for paperwork.
from the time my Pre-order went in - the truck DOUBLED in price. When I signed up it was $39k - by the time with all the bogus fees and other dealer "incentives" my truck was at $76k out the door so I walked away.

Classic ICE car dealers are pretty hostile against EVs, brand independent. Happened to me when I bought a Toyota Prius in the early 2000s, again when I tried to buy a BMW i3 in the 2010s and now again when I tried to buy a Ford EV truck.

Every time I want a EV I have to wait until it hits the used market 3 years later. Buying a EV in the used market is super simple - pay money - get car. I hope all car brands built EV-only dealerships. Not interested in the opinion of a gearhead salesman when I buy a car without gears.

View attachment 199011

Currently I drive a 20 year old Dodge Pickup and recently I pre-ordered the RAM Ramcharger and RAM REV. Maybe Stellantis gets their dealerships in line to efficiently sale EVs.

Further I am backing Edison Motors with their Pickup Conversion Kits: https://www.edisonmotors.ca/edison-pickup-kit

I am still very interested in a Electric truck, but the current Dealer landscape just makes it too painful for me to buy one. I wait until I find one on craigslist or have to built my own.

That is why dealers are called stealers.

They ruin everything with greed and do false advertising. DOJ and Govt Consumer Affairs use to go after them but if get fine just raise prices even more on the customer - consumer. The solution is simple put them in jail or corporal - capital crime charges. Their greed is literally killing ppl. Well depending on how you want to look at it.

 

[eXodus]

They ruin everything with greed and do false advertising.

The false advertising is the most annoying. The new-car prices online are completely worthless.
Dealer-used prices -are almost worthless.
You have no clue what you pay in the end. I can throw a 20 side dice to figure out how many percent they are going to add on.

 

[aenyc]

The false advertising is the most annoying. The new-car prices online are completely worthless.
Dealer-used prices -are almost worthless.
You have no clue what you pay in the end. I can throw a 20 side dice to figure out how many percent they are going to add on.

This is why you negotiate.
The strategy that has always worked for me is negotiating via email, with several dealerships.
Make sure you get everything in writing, until you get the realistic price that is acceptable to to you. Once you finalize the deal over email, you simply go to the dealership to finalize the transaction and pick up your car.
Usually their fin manager will try to sell you some useless crap, but its pretty easy to just say no.
And just FYI, most of my cars i bought at or under invoice pricing (let alone MSRP). Yes even at Invoice dealer still makes a couple of grand. The actual price the dealer pays for the car is 2-3% under invoice pricing (MSRP is usually invoice + 6%).
The only exception to this rule is Audi (For dealer making $ at invoice, the rest is still true).

 

[RV8R]

The false advertising is the most annoying. The new-car prices online are completely worthless.
Dealer-used prices -are almost worthless.
You have no clue what you pay in the end. I can throw a 20 side dice to figure out how many percent they are going to add on.

But You know yer gonna get it in the end.

Or not ,,, in your case

I did watch the Will Video & I am of like mindset on EV Trucks in regards to economics & typical use / truck needs ,,, does not pencil in my perspective.

I have owned many pickups in my life “Personally & Corporately”. Pickups can be very useful, but if a person is not using them for their special needs, they are a very expensive vehicle for “pleasure use” or going to get groceries. So much so, & more recently with the crazy covid vehicle inflation or gouging programs of Supply & Demand, it could be cost effective to own an economical EV car as a 2nd vehicle for your home battery bank “want” & an ICE Truck for real truck use.



Not sure if you “need” a 98kWh battery @ home or what the final in the end $$$ worked out to be ? ,,, But when I read your statement it reminded me of how I am very capable to find a “need” to fit the expenditure ,,, Of that I am a Master & can read between the lines of “Other Masters”.

Of Course ,,, In my case, my Wife is less technical & more trusting of my “necessary brilliant economic ideas” than this Forum . Or maybe she is just easier on me than I realize.

 

[eXodus]

This is why you negotiate.
The strategy that has always worked for me is negotiating via email, with several dealerships.

Try to get to the negotiation stage. Alone that is annoying

Me: What do I pay for the Vehicle out the door.
Dealership: come in for test drive
Me: No, I want to have a price first
Dealer: Cash or finance?
Me: Whatever I get the lower total cost. Cash?
Dealer: I need all your personal information and run a credit check
Me: Why when I pay cash?
etc.

It incredible time consuming to get a straight number from Dealer to negotiate from.

When I go FB or Craigslist - there is my negotiation start price listed. No drama, no hidden fees, just simple, paperwork is putting your name on title and signing. Not 50 pages of legalese and a half a dozen waivers and disclaimers.

I didn't have a good new car buying experiences and only amazing used cars. That's why my opinion is probably biased. Getting to old to waste my time at dealerships. I just wait another year until the EV truck I want trickles through on the used market.

 

[aenyc]

Try to get to the negotiation stage. Alone that is annoying

Me: What do I pay for the Vehicle out the door.
Dealership: come in for test drive
Me: No, I want to have a price first
Dealer: Cash or finance?
Me: Whatever I get the lower total cost. Cash?
Dealer: I need all your personal information and run a credit check
Me: Why when I pay cash?
etc.

It incredible time consuming to get a straight number from Dealer to negotiate from.

When I go FB or Craigslist - there is my negotiation start price listed. No drama, no hidden fees, just simple, paperwork is putting your name on title and signing. Not 50 pages of legalese and a half a dozen waivers and disclaimers.

I didn't have a good new car buying experiences and only amazing used cars. That's why my opinion is probably biased. Getting to old to waste my time at dealerships. I just wait another year until the EV truck I want trickles through on the used market.

Do it over email.
Send to multiple dealerships.
They always try their usual schenanigans but its easy to just ignore it over email and restate your asks. My experience has always been that at least a few dealers will work with this strategy.

Are you sure you want a used EV? Do some research, it seems noone wants used EV's (And for good reason, if something happens to the battery, you pretty much wasted your money)
Also it seems that these EV's are piling up at the lots and are getting heavy discounts (at least in my area, I get lots of ads for deeply discounted EV models as well as lots of special deals on EV (but not gas powered cars)).

 

[D71]

Try to get to the negotiation stage. Alone that is annoying

Me: What do I pay for the Vehicle out the door.
Dealership: come in for test drive
Me: No, I want to have a price first
Dealer: Cash or finance?
Me: Whatever I get the lower total cost. Cash?
Dealer: I need all your personal information and run a credit check
Me: Why when I pay cash?
etc.

It incredible time consuming to get a straight number from Dealer to negotiate from.

When I go FB or Craigslist - there is my negotiation start price listed. No drama, no hidden fees, just simple, paperwork is putting your name on title and signing. Not 50 pages of legalese and a half a dozen waivers and disclaimers.

I didn't have a good new car buying experiences and only amazing used cars. That's why my opinion is probably biased. Getting to old to waste my time at dealerships. I just wait another year until the EV truck I want trickles through on the used market.

If no one bought when they did not honor advertised prices then the advertised price would be honored ..

Ppl just don’t get that and still negotiate at higher prices. Those ppl are stupid. You did the right thing. If the advertised price is flim flam run don’t walk away. Everyone else is merely negotiating with criminals and corruptiion

The Ford Maverick trucks were inflated same way. Idiots paid the higher pricing. The ppl with more money then brains often cry about it later. When it comes time to be up side down on a trade because said Ford Maverick is black booked way lower then they paid Call it justice served

 

[eXodus]

Do it over email.
Send to multiple dealerships.
They always try their usual schenanigans but its easy to just ignore it over email and restate your asks. My experience has always been that at least a few dealers will work with this strategy.

Do I have time for that? My need for a new vehicle has not yet reached the point where I am happy to waste a couple of weeks on playing dealership games. I have an automatic search for craigslist and FB- as soon as vehicle I like gets listed I get a notification.

Are you sure you want a used EV? Do some research, it seems noone wants used EV's

I am on my 3rd used EV. (Prius, Mini-E, BMW i3 They all come with like 8-10 years of warranty, is there is literary nothing on them which breaks. No oils, no fluids, nothing to do.
My i3 is now 7 years old, I bought it from lease at 3, I visited the dealership twice, once for regular maintenance (brake fluid at 5 years) and once because the steering wheel leather peeled of (has nothing to do with the EV drivetrain) and I got new one within the warranty.

A good chunk of my family and friends in Europe are driving EVs. Only good experience.

Also it seems that these EV's are piling up at the lots and are getting heavy discounts (at least in my area, I get lots of ads for deeply discounted EV models as well as lots of special deals on EV (but not gas powered cars)).

This is literarily the best part about driving a EV. I bought a $50k BMW after 3 years for $14k, I can charge for free in most places (it's a Florida thing, don't know - chargers are free here)
It has the features and the built quality of a $50-60k car, but at the price point of budget car. With better warranty - which you don't even need.

People are so afraid of EVs that there amazing deals to grab. That's why my patients with new vehicles buying is low - the used deals are just soo good.

 

[aenyc]

Do I have time for that? My need for a new vehicle has not yet reached the point where I am happy to waste a couple of weeks on playing dealership games. I have an automatic search for craigslist and FB- as soon as vehicle I like gets listed I get a notification.


I am on my 3rd used EV. (Prius, Mini-E, BMW i3 They all come with like 8-10 years of warranty, is there is literary nothing on them which breaks. No oils, no fluids, nothing to do.
My i3 is now 7 years old, I bought it from lease at 3, I visited the dealership twice, once for regular maintenance (brake fluid at 5 years) and once because the steering wheel leather peeled of (has nothing to do with the EV drivetrain) and I got new one within the warranty.

A good chunk of my family and friends in Europe are driving EVs. Only good experience.


This is literarily the best part about driving a EV. I bought a $50k BMW after 3 years for $14k, I can charge for free in most places (it's a Florida thing, don't know - chargers are free here)
It has the features and the built quality of a $50-60k car, but at the price point of budget car. With better warranty - which you don't even need.

People are so afraid of EVs that there amazing deals to grab. That's why my patients with new vehicles buying is low - the used deals are just soo good.

To each his own.
You say you dont have time to negotiate via email (the easiest, least time consuming method), well then good luck paying more at the dealership, lol

I would never own an EV because

1. Thermal Runaway, aka Lithium Fire. This is the elephant in the room.

2. Insurance - Minor fender bender, and insurance will total the car because they dont want to risk. ICE car owners are subsidizing EV owners insurance because of govt mandates

3. Heavy taxpayer subsidies (Let EV's stand on their own without any kind of subsidies)

4. Actual cost is not cheaper if you account everything in calculations of EV ownership, there was research done which calculates the real cost of EV ownership as much higher

https://www.thestreet.com/electric-vehicles/electric-vehicle-tesla-adoption-curve-cost

5. EV (Battery) production is actually terrible to the environment. While there is no tailpipe emissions, all the other emissions that are way more harmful to mother nature are shifted towards EV manufacturing and battery disposal cycles, but few bother to research this.

Your Favorite EV Isn't Doing As Much For Global Warming As You Think

Electric vehicles might not produce tailpipe emissions, but producing EV batteries is a very dirty business.

www.topspeed.com

 

[eXodus]

3. Heavy taxpayer subsidies (Let EV's stand on their own without any kind of subsidies)

I'm bought all my EVs used - I did not get any subsidies.
But I agree as free market person, nobody should get subsidies. Not EVs, not hybrids, not hydrogen, and not Fossil fuels.

Fossil Fuel Subsidies Surged to Record $7 Trillion

Scaling back subsidies would reduce air pollution, generate revenue, and make a major contribution to slowing climate change

www.imf.org

4. Actual cost is not cheaper if you account everything in calculations of EV ownership, there was research done which calculates the real cost of EV ownership as much higher

That is very regional, some places it makes sense some it doesn't. I get free power, aka free fuel.
So my real cost of ownership is very low.

5. EV (Battery) production is actually terrible to the environment

oil drilling, transportation, and refining is awful for the environment, so we improving with EV battery mining - is it great? No, but a large improvement over the alternative.

 

[aenyc]

oil drilling, transportation, and refining is awful for the environment, so we improving with EV battery mining - is it great? No, but a large improvement over the alternative.

Actually battery mining is much, much worse.
And when they reach EOL, its even worse then worse (because recycling them is actually pipe dream. We dont have the tech to recycle them)

I will post links proving this tomorrow.

 

[Sanwizard]

I'm bought all my EVs used - I did not get any subsidies.
But I agree as free market person, nobody should get subsidies. Not EVs, not hybrids, not hydrogen, and not Fossil fuels.

Fossil Fuel Subsidies Surged to Record $7 Trillion

Scaling back subsidies would reduce air pollution, generate revenue, and make a major contribution to slowing climate change

www.imf.org

That is very regional, some places it makes sense some it doesn't. I get free power, aka free fuel.
So my real cost of ownership is very low.

View attachment 199194

oil drilling, transportation, and refining is awful for the environment, so we improving with EV battery mining - is it great? No, but a large improvement over the alternative.

Get rid of ethanol, and grow FOOD instead!

 

[Sanwizard]

I'm bought all my EVs used - I did not get any subsidies.
But I agree as free market person, nobody should get subsidies. Not EVs, not hybrids, not hydrogen, and not Fossil fuels.

Fossil Fuel Subsidies Surged to Record $7 Trillion

Scaling back subsidies would reduce air pollution, generate revenue, and make a major contribution to slowing climate change

www.imf.org

That is very regional, some places it makes sense some it doesn't. I get free power, aka free fuel.
So my real cost of ownership is very low.

View attachment 199194

oil drilling, transportation, and refining is awful for the environment, so we improving with EV battery mining - is it great? No, but a large improvement over the alternative.

I dont agree with the "outlook" of this chart going out to 2026, as many manufacturers are shutting down EV lines. As for batteries, hopefully Salt based, or hydrogen based vehicles will fix some of it.

 

[eXodus]

Get rid of ethanol, and grow FOOD instead!

could not agree more.

Ethanol is one of those big government well intended but with really bad consequences.

many manufacturers are shutting down EV lines.

Only old school OEMs, I honestly do not anticipate many of them living to the end of decade. They are already shrinking,

Tesla, BYD, Geeley, Hyundai-Kia are building new lines.

When Tesla comes out with their $25k Model and BYD floods the market with an sub $20k car, ICE brands are going to have a really hard time.

As for batteries, hopefully Salt based,

BYD has a sodium (salt) battery in their Dolphin model. Which might be built soon in Mexico.

I don't understand what people have with Hydrogen, it is a terrible vehicle fuel. For rockets OK, but for a car? That stuff diffuses through everything. Nobody wants to have a car which when you leave it parked is empty after 3-4 weeks.

 

[aenyc]

could not agree more.

Ethanol is one of those big government well intended but with really bad consequences.

Only old school OEMs, I honestly do not anticipate many of them living to the end of decade. They are already shrinking,

Tesla, BYD, Geeley, Hyundai-Kia are building new lines.

When Tesla comes out with their $25k Model and BYD floods the market with an sub $20k car, ICE brands are going to have a really hard time.


BYD has a sodium (salt) battery in their Dolphin model. Which might be built soon in Mexico.

I don't understand what people have with Hydrogen, it is a terrible vehicle fuel. For rockets OK, but for a car? That stuff diffuses through everything. Nobody wants to have a car which when you leave it parked is empty after 3-4 weeks.

So is battery. You know what they power with batteries? Toy cars.
Na battery has all the same problems as LFP for EV application.
The energy density is even worse so its a no starter. No wonder its BYD lol

 

[eXodus]

So is battery.

LFP batteries self discharge at 3-4% per year not at 60% per month as Hydrogen does.

First-Half U.S. Auto Sales Rankings: Automakers and Trends

Explore the winners and trends in the First-Half U.S. Auto Sales Rankings, uncovering top performers, shifts, and future prospects in the automotive industry.

diminishedvalueofgeorgia.com

A Toy car is the 4th best selling car last year. With that growth rate my assumption is that it is going to be on 3rd spot in 2024.

Energy density is good enough for most people these days. For your daily life you do not need more then 50 miles da day and most EVs come with 200-300. So plenty.