Can Solar & Wind Fix Everything (e.g., Climate Change) with a battery break-through?

[aenyc]

"Man Made Global Warming"​

Click to access Paper2_recent_pause_in_global_warming.PDF
Once upon a time there was The Pause.

For a decade and a half, global temperatures stopped rising, an embarrassment for climate scientists. Even the Met Office published a long study in 2013 into the possible reasons.

But while one team at the Met Office were scratching their heads, another was busy at work eliminating the problem.

After all, if the data does not support the theory, you simply change the data.

The Met Office’s Hadley Centre, in conjunction with the disgraced Climate Research Unit at the UEA, had for years published their global temperature series known as HADCRUT3. They regarded it as the gold standard of datasets.

But just a year after the Met Office’s paper on the pause, a new version was rushed out, HADCRUT4, which conveniently removed that pause.

By 2014, when HADCRUT3 was formally replaced, the new version had added about a tenth of a degree to warming since 2000.


https://www.woodfortrees.org/data/hadcrut3vgl/from:1990/plot/none

https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/hadobs/hadcrut4/data/current/download.html

But the Met Office did not stop there. In 2021 they had another bite at the cherry, replacing HADCRUT4 with HADCRUT5. The new version added nearly another tenth of a degree:


https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/hadobs/hadcrut5/data/HadCRUT.5.0.2.0/download.html

Put all three series together, and we can see how most of the warming since 2001 is the result of adjustments to the data:


The Met Office claimed there were valid reasons for changing their datasets. They would, wouldn’t they?

But I am certain that if they had set out looking for ways to reduce warming trends, they would have had no difficulty justifying that either. After all, they could have started by excluding the effect of UHI from their data.

 

[Checkthisout]

Tesla lays off 'more than 10%' of its global workforce

The layoffs were announced in a company-wide email, after rumors they could reach as high as 20% of Tesla's ~140,000 global headcount.

electrek.co

 

[Sanwizard]

We can also make hydrogen from solar, wind, or nuclear energy. But, there are other problems with making it (e.g., source of water).
But Natural Hydrogen that has immense underground reserves larger than petroleum? Reservoirs that self-renew? Well, sounds to good to be true.


Doubt that will happen, but who knows. Interesting you brought up the Jetsons. It's not Ion propulsion, but you can order a Jetson One today. Ultralight, so no pilot's license needed and it is an EV.

Somebody tell these folks that they need cowlings on that thing, otherwise its nothing more than a fancy lawn mower that eats people.
Can you imagine some kid running out to greet daddy coming gome from work? Chopped meat.

 

[Bongbong]

​

Honda’s Plug-In Hydrogen Fuel EV​ A PHEV is a car that has a gasoline engine, but it doesn't normally burn gas unless you're out of battery (or specifically switch to it). They typically have a range of ~300 miles, with 40 miles or so electric. Which means for the average daily they never burn gas. Which is a problem as gasoline is a weird mix of chemicals and loses it's octane rating over time (e.g., it goes bad). But Hydrogen doesn't go bad. So this move by Honda is in my opinion genius, even more so if "natural" hydrogen turns out to be real. Hedges recently pointed out the FCEVs also have batteries, but currently they are "hybrid" (recapture energy from braking, around a KWh). The current Honda PHEV CRV has an all-electric range of 50 miles, but the prototype driven (right) was only ~30.

First drive: Honda CR-V e:FCEV​

I know Will has stated in the past he doesn't like PHEVs as they kept all the problems with ICE. But fuel cells don't have the complex moving parts like ICE and for people that can't easily charge their car or don't want to wait for public rechargers on trips, I can see this as being a great vehicle if hydrogen is readily available. It's not ready for here today, but in a decade if Natural Hydrogen has supplanted normal gas stations... sure!

What do you think?

It looks like batteries will be too cheap for hydrogen fuel cells in cars to make sense. Fuel cells are still inefficient, but I do see a use for them in winter to heat the house and water with the waste product of generating electricity used to top up the house battery. To be fair I have not been paying much attention to fuel cells lately because the economics don't make sense in addition to the technology stagnating. The cost of making the hydrogen in summer, with solar energy that would on sunny days be curtailed, is not the issue, nor the inefficiencies, it is transporting it to the fuel stations, getting it into the cars and storing it there in a cost effective manner that I doubt.

As always, I would love to be proven wrong.

 

[svetz]

Somebody tell these folks that they need cowlings on that thing, otherwise its nothing more than a fancy lawn mower that eats people. How many aircraft today do that? It's the same with everything. Wheels on cars can crush things too. But I agree there is a balance between safety and practicality that needs to be found.

 

[Hedges]

We can also make hydrogen from solar, wind, or nuclear energy. But, there are other problems with making it (e.g., source of water).

How is source of water a problem?

Doubt that will happen, but who knows. Interesting you brought up the Jetsons. It's not Ion propulsion, but you can order a Jetson One today. Ultralight, so no pilot's license needed and it is an EV.

That video keeps showing a perspective from a viewer zooming all around it. Is that taken by a chase drone?
Or is it just CGI, i.e. a video game, in which case the video is of no value at all?

The cost of making the hydrogen in summer, with solar energy that would on sunny days be curtailed, is not the issue, nor the inefficiencies, it is transporting it to the fuel stations, getting it into the cars and storing it there in a cost effective manner that I doubt.

As always, I would love to be proven wrong.

Because the electricity generated by rooftop solar is worth less than zero, it will be used to create hydrogen, temporarily stored in tanks. When people return home, it will be pumped into their cars. The next day on their way to work, they stop at a fueling station to transfer the surplus hydrogen into underground tanks, so it is available to refuel semi trucks passing through town. The common citizen will get a good revenue stream, no longer need to work a 40 hour week to support his family.

It always looked to me like a modest size fuel cell as backup power for a house was quite expensive. But the Mirai has a 100 kW one, enough to supply a city block of homes (excluding heating), or maybe 10 ~ 20 homes with heating. At the price of those cars used, very economical (as many things are at a larger scale.)

The fuel storage method I find interesting is hydrogenation, e.g. Crisco. While not terribly efficient, and that must be multiplied by inefficiency of production and use, it is compatible with existing storage and transport infrastructure. Efficiencies could be compared to fossil fuel, ICE vehicles and combined cycle plants. Of course, fossil fuel, like sunshine, we don't care so much about efficiency so long as we can harvest enough.

 

[fpgt72]

I trust you’re including Fox News in the alt category

Give us an example
.

Is that meant to be a veiled threat?

#1, I include it in part of the "media machine". I see them as a republican news source, and I see republican and democrat as two sides of the same coin. They want you to think they are on a specific side, but they really are not.

#2, I gave you two examples Hunters laptop with a fist full of "FBI guys" saying it is misinformation. As well as the 2009 "climate gate", there are buckets more that I would be happy to share but that would derail the thread, but if you do want me to continue just say the word.

#3 https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2022/03/close-the-blinds-during-sleep-to-protect-your-health/

#3 is just reporting on articles that are out there, this one on an .edu site, but there are others you can find anywhere. There is a reason fit people are dropping dead of heart issues, and it is not because they kept the blinds open.

That last one is yet another example you will never see on the "main stream" and an example on how "science" is bought and paid for.

Remember monkeypox, murder hornets, and lord knows what else. I will bet you will see some other "issue" come up around Oct of this year.

 

[svetz]

It looks like batteries will be too cheap for hydrogen fuel cells in cars to make sense.

That and technology changes making it faster to recharge them could mean the fuel cell doesn't make sense economically. Or a redox battery where you fill-up by swapping fluids.

I had been thinking rapid charging of an EV might be constrained by heat. If a battery is 96% efficient and you charge 100 kWh in 5 minutes, that means the car needs to deal with (100 x .04 =) 4 kWh of heat, that's about 14,000 BTUs in 5 minutes. I suppose that's not so bad, a V8 produces ~120,000 BTU/gallon (ref). So, at 60 mph and 30 mpg it's creating 20,000 btu in 5 minutes.

The cost of making the hydrogen in summer, with solar energy that would on sunny days be curtailed, is not the issue, nor the inefficiencies, it is transporting it to the fuel stations, getting it into the cars and storing it there in a cost effective manner that I doubt.

Why is that? With batteries covering the normal driving range, it wouldn't be like gas today where you fill up every week or so... you'd only need to top off a couple of times year or when traveling cross country. Refueling stations could manufacture their own hydrogen without the need for transport in such a scenario (possibly not at major highways where there could be substantial demand).

But, we have natural gas pipelines and distribute gasoline/diesel with few logistical problems today. Sure, it adds to the cost, but it does for gasoline and natural gas too. The problem I see with green hydrogen is the water. If the process uses salt water (*ref) that's no problem. But potable water? There's not much of that isn't spoken for in most places.

 

[fpgt72]

How many aircraft today do that? It's the same with everything. Wheels on cars can crush things too. But I agree there is a balance between safety and practicality that needs to be found.

I would expect you to not understand the difference between a driveway and a runway.

 

[Checkthisout]

Somebody tell these folks that they need cowlings on that thing, otherwise its nothing more than a fancy lawn mower that eats people.
Can you imagine some kid running out to greet daddy coming gome from work? Chopped meat.

It solves the overpopulation problem while making vehicle fuel!

Boy this thread has been a "journey" hasn't it?

 

[svetz]

How is source of water a problem?

You can make hydrogen from salt water. But there's a lot of competition for potable water (which is easier/cheaper to convert) in most places.

But, that's why the e:FCEV is such genius. Most people drive < 40 miles per day, so most people would be on battery and hydrogen is more for extended range when you need it. If hydrogen is used for topping off and the unusual long drives; so we won't use anywhere near as much of it.

That video keeps showing a perspective from a viewer zooming all around it. Is that taken by a chase drone?

No idea. But there's enough videos and stories by people that have flown in it that it seems to hold veracity. Lot's of YT videos on it.

The next day on their way to work, they stop at a fueling station to transfer the surplus hydrogen into underground tanks, so it is available to refuel semi trucks

Wow! That's a cool idea! I suspect in the name of "purity" (e.g., contaminants from home systems) legislation would be passed so homeowners didn't compete with the new Exxon's.

... we don't care so much about efficiency so long as we can harvest enough.

True words, but I'd add "cheaply enough"

 

[Checkthisout]

How much does a home hydrogen generator cost?

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www.grainger.com

 

[Hedges]

You can make hydrogen from salt water. But there's a lot of competition for potable water (which is easier/cheaper to convert) in most places.

H2O

Molecular weight of Hydrogen is 1. Molecular weight of Oxygen is 16.
18 lbs (2 gallons) of water makes 2 lbs. of hydrogen.

120 MJ/kg for hydrogen, 33 kWh.

Hydrogen Storage

Hydrogen storage is a key enabling technology for the advancement of hydrogen and fuel cell technologies in power and transportation applications.

www.energy.gov

Two gallons of water lets you store 30 kWh of energy.
How many gallons does you household use per day?
If you like, you could reuse gray water from shower for that purpose (assuming government doesn't ban that, because the water belongs to the waste treatment company which resells treated water.)

Don't laugh, waste water is valuable stuff:

California OKs rules for turning wastewater into tapwater

San Jose has opened the Silicon Valley Advanced Water Purification Center for public tours “so that people can see that this is a very high tech process that ensures the water is super clean.”

www.mercurynews.com

And don't get me wrong, I have no doubt of the ability for chlorine to sterilize human waste. I'm more concerned about the (un?) intended side affects of administering Ethinyl estradiol to children and pregnant women.

Oral Contraceptives Pollute Water Which Hinders the Ability of Fish to Reproduce

Fish exposed to even a small amount of synthetic estrogen could lead them to have smaller populations and fewer male offsprings.

www.sciencetimes.com

 

[D71]

How much does a home hydrogen generator cost?

Loading…

www.grainger.com

Look man we are spending trillions of dollars to go green Stop being a downer with your ~$23,000 hydrogen home maker. Go green or go bust.
It is just money. Spare no expense save the planet.

It is a big joke.

 

[Checkthisout]

Look man we are spending trillions of dollars to go green Stop being a downer with your ~$23,000 hydrogen home maker. Go green or go bust.
It is just money. Spare no expense save the planet.

It is a big joke.

I'll admit to being ignorant but it looks like we can make hydrogen at home. Does this thing make hydrogen gas? If so don't we need to pump that gas up to like 10,000 PSI to get enough into our onboard storage tank to make the car go anywhere? It would take a lot of energy to generator that kind of pressure.

I guess I am wondering why SVETZ and Honda think hydrogen gas would be better than batteries in regards to harnessing alternative energy production and using it in the transport sector.

 

[Hedges]

Compressing gas takes energy, expanding gas releases energy.

It's a Twofer! Make a combined cycle hydrogen fuel cell vehicle.

Compressed-air car - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Checkthisout]

Compressing gas takes energy, expanding gas releases energy.

It's a Twofer! Make a combined cycle hydrogen fuel cell vehicle.

Compressed-air car - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I was thinking that but what happens to hydrogen gas blow-by around the rings? You now need a vacuum pump to scavenge the crankcase and recompress the hydrogen for use in the vehicle.

I guess you could have sparklers like they do on the space shuttle launch pad and a little exhaust pipe and just flare it off to atmosphere. That'd be pretty cool I guess.....

 

[Hedges]

I guess I am wondering why SVETZ and Honda think hydrogen gas would be better than batteries in regards to harnessing alternative energy production and using it in the transport sector.

Fast refill, similar to gasoline.

Loading…

www.motortrend.com

And it can be trucked around. Sure, you could truck batteries, but those require about daily cycling to be cost effective. Hydrogen can be shipped around by ... ship. Even liquified.

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www.globalaustralia.gov.au

(Still hard to compete with Dino Diesel, unless your concern is "Carbon Footprint"



Just how much methane "greenhouse gas" did those brontosaurus emit?
No wonder they went extinct! Just like humans are going to!

 

[Hedges]

I was thinking that but what happens to hydrogen gas blow-by around the rings? You now need a vacuum pump to scavenge the crankcase and recompress the hydrogen for use in the vehicle.

I guess you could have sparklers like they do on the space shuttle launch pad and a little exhaust pipe and just flare it off to atmosphere. That'd be pretty cool I guess.....

Even lawnmowers and motorcycles have crankcase breather tube. Totally passive.



No need for a vacuum pump.

What some vehicles have is a smog air pump, to add air to exhaust pipe when engine is running rich. My old mechanical fuel injection cars worked that way. Newer Sable has one, for use before O2 sensors allow closed loop operation.


Anyway, with H2 you don't run ICE (30% efficiency), you use it for a fuel cell ... OK, not great either: 25% to 60%.

Fuel cell - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Guess it is better for CHP, winter heating together with either motive power or home/industrial electricity.

Not clear to me why a fuel cell should be so low. It is a flow battery, as others have pointed out. Maybe a better chemistry will be invented.

 

[Checkthisout]

Even lawnmowers and motorcycles have crankcase breather tube. Totally passive.

View attachment 209443

No need for a vacuum pump.

What some vehicles have is a smog air pump, to add air to exhaust pipe when engine is running rich. My old mechanical fuel injection cars worked that way. Newer Sable has one, for use before O2 sensors allow closed loop operation.


Anyway, with H2 you don't run ICE (30% efficiency), you use it for a fuel cell ... OK, not great either: 25% to 60%.

Fuel cell - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Guess it is better for CHP, winter heating together with either motive power or home/industrial electricity.

Not clear to me why a fuel cell should be so low. It is a flow battery, as others have pointed out. Maybe a better chemistry will be invented.

Ha ha. Thought you meant using the energy of expanding the hydrogen to drive a compressed-gas motor and then passing it's exhaust (the hydrogen) through the fuel cell.

The hydrogen is flammable hence my reason for needing to do something with the blowby that leaks around our compressed gas-driven motor.