Dr Strangetroll : or how I learned to stop arguing and be amused by the intransigence

[Cdkipp]

You still don't understand the difference between prevention and treatment ... once you get symptoms it is too late.

Good catch BOB. I thought I would blow that right by you.

So you will then distinguish from BMcl who claims ivermectin prevents infection?

 

[Bob B]

That is not the same.

As for your "remedy", I could give you a sugar pill and claim that 98% of the people taking this "medication" will survive covid. The fact that this is no different from the people who don't get the "medication" is lost by way to many people.

Double blind trials exist for a good reason.

It is not a remedy .... it is a preventive tool to kill off the virus while it is still in the sinus or mouth and hasn't taken hold in the system yet. Very dilute hydrogen peroxide and iodine kill a virus on contact.

 

[Cdkipp]

You still don't understand the difference between prevention and treatment ... once you get symptoms it is too late.

A nasal rinse of saline and hydrogen peroxide is used for chronic sinus infection and thought to reduce reinfection.

 

[noenegdod]

First, I partially reject your premise. I am seeing a debate amongst actual legitimate, epidemiologists, virologists and immunologists where we should go from here. There is no consensus for a booster train.

exactly, yet medial and politicians and pushing everyone to get boosted.

Part of the question is whether we should strive to maintain a high antibody level (which looks like a 4-month interval) or whether we can rely on our secondary immune system response that will not prevent infections but "hopefully" lower hospitalizations and deaths.

What is our "secondary immune system?

The first defense is the innate immune system. This is the one that has failed in most of the sick and old population and is why they have to rely on the adaptive immune system and the belief that it needs to be kept on "high alert" with boosters instead of allowing circulating anitbodies wain and rely on memory t and b cells to do their job. The booster approach is relevant for the sick but if you have anything even close to resembling health you are fine with relying on memory t and b cells.

Israel has started the 4th shot but, unlike with the third, there is uncertainty in the mainstream US scientific discussion. I think most of them think it is at least time to move on to a new vaccine (making less sense to have a vaccine based on Wuhan original virus) or maybe just boost prior to winter. There are also other nonspike protein vaccines in development that may prevent the variant immune escape problem. So I don't know the answer to your question. Clearly, we need to be prepared because as Omicron proves there is little time to react.

Omicron is fear porn and statements like this just encourage consumption of it.

Second, the overwhelming consensus is that we should avoid infection and not try to get immunity for infection by getting infected.

You can not avoid infection! This is the whole point I am trying to make. If you get exposed, you are infected. If you are really healthy, your innate immune system kicks its ass and you will probably be asymptomatic, If not so healthy you get sick and the adaptive system learns, If you have already been exposed/vaccinated your adaptive immune system kicks in and you will either have an asymptomatic infection or you will develop mild symptoms. That is the only purpose of this vaccine. It is not to avoid infection. It is to try to make the infections as mild as possible!

In addition to vaccines, I am very hopeful we can get much wider use of N95 masks and better overall ventilation. We need indoor air standards for disease prevention just like water standards.

External defenses are a poor replacement for a healthy immune system.

 

[Cdkipp]

It is not a remedy .... it is a preventive tool to kill off the virus while it is still in the sinus or mouth and hasn't taken hold in the system yet. Very dilute hydrogen peroxide and iodine kill a virus on contact.

Well there is no study that I know of to prove that--speculation--and your timing would need to be perfect. If it worked with covid it would work with every respiratory infection and we know that does not happen.

 

[Bob B]

Well there is no study that I know of to prove that--speculation--and your timing would need to be perfect.

...and there never will be a study

If it worked with covid it would work with every respiratory infection and we know that does not happen.

How do we know it "doesn't happen?" .... whatever that means

I haven't had a cold, flu, or covid since I started doing this every time as soon as I get home.. At the very least, it is going to significantly reduce the viral exposure .... at the best, it kills the virus off before it can get a foothold.

 

[bradbill]

Why are you fabricating things Ive never commented on?

Why dont you stick to what Ive posted here instead, which is that:

1, solid, verifiable evidence exists that the 2020 election was rigged, I provided a link to support that.

2, thusly, Donald Trumps claims prior to and on jan 6 were not baseless as the media claims still today.

3, consequently, the rationale you used to vote against him is just plain wrong but youd rather spend time trying to dig up things about me on the internet rather than admit your side cheated to put an inept moron in charge who would destroy the country for a few million future democrat votes.

I dont think youre a republican or ever were.

LOL...more conspiracy theories....use your brain for once.

 

[Bob B]

...and there never will be a study

How do we know it "doesn't happen?" .... whatever that means

I haven't had a cold, flu, or covid since I started doing this every time as soon as I get home.. At the very least, it is going to significantly reduce the viral exposure .... at the best, it kills the virus off before it can get a foothold.

This is one of the things I discovered they are doing in Uttar Pradesh ....
OK ....Yeah .... that was trolling.

 

[Johnson]

Getting the booster does not mean you will not experience the symptoms of omicron.

This is the point. You have probably been exposed repeatedly unless you have been hiding out. Every time you are exposed, you have been given a "booster".

Now let me be clear, I am not telling you to not get a booster! If you want to get a booster, DO IT! I am an incredibly strong advocate for vaccination for the people who what it. I am also an incredibly strong advocate for those who do not want to get it. Both sides just need to actually be educated. Not listening to some fat guy on the internet (who absolutly should have been vaccinated) telling everyone they should not get it, and then dying, or to some jack ass on the internet preaching blind compliance and pressuring anyone with questions to shut up and just do it.

I have nothing but respect for your decision.

I am not afraid of either the vaccine or the virus. As I have said before, My diet, sleep and health are all spot on. Personally I am not vaccinated and have zero fear. I do not believe covid is a hoax. It is very real but is only a concern for those with weakened immune systems for what ever reason.

You believe to be a healthy freedom loving and patriotic individual. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt.

The reason we have written laws is that we want to treat people equally, fairly and with respect. It doesn't always work out that way, but a reasonable person would want to achieve that. Now there is an argument to be had that there are way to many laws and we might object to some of them in varying degrees.degrees.

We would not need any laws if people usually acted in the interest of the common good within reason. The definition of common good is also debatable and has changed over the. For example slavery was considered perfectly acceptable not all that long ago by many in the us and it is still practiced in other parts of this world.

By getting the vaccine and keeping it up to date, we are less likely to end up in hospital and given that hospitals do have limited resources, it is in every ones interest that we do get vaccinated and keep up to date with the vaccine.

You stated a while back that you would not seek hospital treatment for covid if you did get it and that is perfectly acceptable to me. I am open to have people who refuse the vaccine sign a paper where they forgo possible hospital treatment in the case of covid infection. It would allow society to get back to normal and end the lockdowns.

Would that be a solution you are willing to get behind?

 

[Johnson]

It is not a remedy .... it is a preventive tool to kill off the virus while it is still in the sinus or mouth and hasn't taken hold in the system yet. Very dilute hydrogen peroxide and iodine kill a virus on contact.

Sure replace the word remidy with preventitive tool, you still have to prove effectiveness. In addition you will have to prove safety as other people will be exposed to your protective tool.

 

[Bob B]

Sure replace the word remidy with preventitive tool, you still have to prove effectiveness. In addition you will have to prove safety as other people will be exposed to your protective tool.

Various SAFE formulas for this treatment can be with a simple online search.

I don't have to prove efficacy to you .... just to myself ... I am doing my own 3 person trial.

My daughter works at a very busy retail outlet .... she is the only 1 who works in that store who hasn't gotten covid.

 

[Johnson]

Various SAFE formulas for this treatment can be with a simple online search.

I don't have to prove efficacy to you .... just to myself ... I am doing my own 3 person trial.

My daughter works at a very busy retail outlet .... she is the only 1 who works in that store who hasn't gotten covid

That is called anecdotal evidence, it doesn't hold up in the real world.

 

[Bob B]

That is called anecdotal evidence, it doesn't hold up in the real world.

Penicillin was discovered by an arbitrary observation .... What part of no one is going to study this because there is no money in it .... don't you understand.
I don't care if there is no study ..... I don't care if you don't think there is any value in this preventive measure.
Maybe someone else will .... and do a little research ... and prevent more covid spread. I totally understand that I will never be able to PROVE this prevented anything .... I also can't prove that using synthetic oil in my vehicles prevents problems ... but I do it anyway.

 

[Cdkipp]

exactly, yet medial and politicians and pushing everyone to get boosted.


What is our "secondary immune system?

The first defense is the innate immune system. This is the one that has failed in most of the sick and old population and is why they have to rely on the adaptive immune system and the belief that it needs to be kept on "high alert" with boosters instead of allowing circulating anitbodies wain and rely on memory t and b cells to do their job. The booster approach is relevant for the sick but if you have anything even close to resembling health you are fine with relying on memory t and b cells.



Omicron is fear porn and statements like this just encourage consumption of it.


You can not avoid infection! This is the whole point I am trying to make. If you get exposed, you are infected. If you are really healthy, your innate immune system kicks its ass and you will probably be asymptomatic, If not so healthy you get sick and the adaptive system learns, If you have already been exposed/vaccinated your adaptive immune system kicks in and you will either have an asymptomatic infection or you will develop mild symptoms. That is the only purpose of this vaccine. It is not to avoid infection. It is to try to make the infections as mild as possible!

External defenses are a poor replacement for a healthy immune system.

What is our "secondary immune system?

Aren't you the healthcare provider?

It depends on how you number them as it has many layers.

The first layer of our immune system is our skin and mucous membranes. That is a barrier system. We could think of masks and handwashing as enhancements of that system.

Our second layer could be what you call our "innate" system. That is the immune system that is just a general surveillance type of system and it will jump on things that the immune system does not believe should be there (as an aside this is the cause of hayfever and common allergies). It will be the first to pounce on colds, covid etc. But it is not a specific response and can be easily overwhelmed by an effective pathogen regardless of your general immune health.

The next layer is our immune system that recognizes a specific threat and produces specific antibodies to address that threat. This is when our immune system really means business. So if you get Covid your body identifies the proteins that characterize that virus and makes antibodies that will kill it. This is our typical response when we get ill and it takes a few days for the body to recognize the threat and then manufacture the antibodies. This is why we get sick and then suddenly get better. Colds and influenza are not self-limiting. It is our immune system that kills them. (here in the case of Covid it gets complicated due to a possible immune over-response--our body starts killing itself in addition to the virus)

It is at this layer that vaccines come into play. Instead of getting infected with Covid, we inject something that looks like Covid, and triggers the same, or similar antibody immune response that we would have had if we were infected.

So why does the immune response fade? As discussed above we are talking about our bodies producing antibodies to kill or stop an infection. The body will maintain that level of antibodies as long as it perceives the threat. However, producing antibodies uses resources and energy and our bodies like to run as efficiently as possible. So when the body thinks the coast is clear it will stop antibody production. Antibodies drop and we can get reinfected.

Why is the length of antibody response longer for some diseases and vaccines than others? This gets more complicated than I have knowledge but there are many unknowns. The body makes the decision and we do not understand all the reasons why. It is a new frontier because if we could answer that we could make better vaccines. This is also why when the experts were asked how long the vaccine would last they always gave some variation of "We don't know but hopefully..............." BMcl and Bob B and such think of this as double talk and the vaccine being a failure but it is just stating the facts. The immune system will only do what it will do. The vaccine protects no one and is gone from the body in hours. Protection is all on our immune systems.

Okay, now to your question what did I mean by the secondary immune system. Well, sometimes everything discussed above is called the primary immune system and what I am about to discuss is called the secondary immune system or adaptive immune system.

If we are low on, or have no, specific antibodies left from a previous covid infection or the vaccine, what happens?
Well, all os not lost, hopefully. Our body also has Memory B Cells and T cells (lack of T cells is AIDS) that respond. The key here is these cells remember a previous bad guy even though the primary antibodies are gone. When I was in school our professor told us to think of them as like photos in the post office. No, we no longer have cops on every street corner but we are watching for this guy. We will be ready fast!
This system can provide some direct response when they see a virus the second time but the biggest thing they do is immediately begin the manufacture of the antibodies. We saw some evidence with the boosters that the antibody level jumped within three to four days rather than two weeks as with the first shot. This would be the secondary immune system firing. We also see that even though vaccinated people have greatly reduced antibody levels over time, they still do much better than the unvaccinated with regard to hospitalization and death. Why? The secondary immune system recognizes the spike protein and fires everything up.

So that is what I meant by relying on the secondary immune system. In the face of a highly contagious sometimes deadly virus, you would love to have your population brimming with antibodies and ready for battle. Hence the boosters, like troop reinforcements on the battlefield. But how long can we keep that up and are we better off retreating to the fort which would be our secondary immune system? That is the big debate right now.
Certainly, if as with the first booster, you think it could greatly extend the period antibodies are effective, then you would by all means booster. But when you find that doesn't work. What do you do?

 

[Cdkipp]

exactly, yet medial and politicians and pushing everyone to get boosted.


What is our "secondary immune system?

The first defense is the innate immune system. This is the one that has failed in most of the sick and old population and is why they have to rely on the adaptive immune system and the belief that it needs to be kept on "high alert" with boosters instead of allowing circulating anitbodies wain and rely on memory t and b cells to do their job. The booster approach is relevant for the sick but if you have anything even close to resembling health you are fine with relying on memory t and b cells.



Omicron is fear porn and statements like this just encourage consumption of it.


You can not avoid infection! This is the whole point I am trying to make. If you get exposed, you are infected. If you are really healthy, your innate immune system kicks its ass and you will probably be asymptomatic, If not so healthy you get sick and the adaptive system learns, If you have already been exposed/vaccinated your adaptive immune system kicks in and you will either have an asymptomatic infection or you will develop mild symptoms. That is the only purpose of this vaccine. It is not to avoid infection. It is to try to make the infections as mild as possible!

External defenses are a poor replacement for a healthy immune system.

What is our "secondary immune system?

Aren't you the healthcare provider?

It depends on how you number them as it has many layers.

The first layer of our immune system is our skin and mucous membranes. That is a barrier system. We could think of masks and handwashing as enhancements of that system.

Our second layer could be what you call our "innate" system. That is the immune system that is just a general surveillance type of system and it will jump on things that the immune system does not believe should be there (as an aside this is the cause of hayfever and common allergies). It will be the first to pounce on colds, covid etc. But it is not a specific response and can be easily overwhelmed by an effective pathogen regardless of your general immune health.

The next layer is our immune system that recognizes a specific threat and produces specific antibodies to address that threat. This is when our immune system really means business. So if you get Covid your body identifies the proteins that characterize that virus and makes antibodies that will kill it. This is our typical response when we get ill and it takes a few days for the body to recognize the threat and then manufacture the antibodies. This is why we get sick and then suddenly get better. Colds and influenza are not self-limiting. It is our immune system that kills them. (here in the case of Covid it gets complicated due to a possible immune over-response--our body starts killing itself in addition to the virus)

It is at this layer that vaccines come into play. Instead of getting infected with Covid, we inject something that looks like Covid, and triggers the same, or similar antibody immune response that we would have had if we were infected.

So why does the immune response fade? As discussed above we are talking about our bodies producing antibodies to kill or stop an infection. The body will maintain that level of antibodies as long as it perceives the threat. However, producing antibodies uses resources and energy and our bodies like to run as efficiently as possible. So when the body thinks the coast is clear it will stop antibody production. Antibodies drop and we can get reinfected.

Why is the length of antibody response longer for some diseases and vaccines than others? This gets more complicated than I have knowledge but there are many unknowns. The body makes the decision and we do not understand all the reasons why. It is a new frontier because if we could answer that we could make better vaccines. This is also why when the experts were asked how long the vaccine would last they always gave some variation of "We don't know but hopefully..............." BMcl and Bob B and such think of this as double talk and the vaccine being a failure but it is just stating the facts. The immune system will only do what it will do. The vaccine protects no one and is gone from the body in hours. Protection is all on our immune systems.

Okay, now to your question what did I mean by the secondary immune system. Well, sometimes everything discussed above is called the primary immune system and what I am about to discuss is called the secondary immune system or adaptive immune system.

If we are low on, or have no, specific antibodies left from a previous covid infection or the vaccine, what happens?
Well, all os not lost, hopefully. Our body also has Memory B Cells and T cells (lack of T cells is AIDS) that respond. The key here is these cells remember a previous bad guy even though the primary antibodies are gone. When I was in school our professor told us to think of them as like photos in the post office. No, we no longer have cops on every street corner but we are watching for this guy. We will be ready fast!
This system can provide some direct response when they see a virus the second time but the biggest thing they do is immediately begin the manufacture of the antibodies. We saw some evidence with the boosters that the antibody level jumped within three to four days rather than two weeks as with the first shot. This would be the secondary immune system firing. We also see that even though vaccinated people have greatly reduced antibody levels over time, they still do much better than the unvaccinated with regard to hospitalization and death. Why? The secondary immune system recognizes the spike protein and fires everything up.

So that is what I meant by relying on the secondary immune system. In the face of a highly contagious sometimes deadly virus, you would love to have your population brimming with antibodies and ready for battle. Hence the boosters, like troop reinforcements on the battlefield. But how long can we keep that up and are we better off retreating to the fort which would be our secondary immune system? That is the big debate right now.
Certainly, if as with the first booster, you think it could greatly extend the period antibodies are effective, then you would by all means booster. But when you find that doesn't work. What do you do?

 

[noenegdod]

You stated a while back that you would not seek hospital treatment for covid if you did get it and that is perfectly acceptable to me. I am open to have people who refuse the vaccine sign a paper where they forgo possible hospital treatment in the case of covid infection. It would allow society to get back to normal and end the lockdowns.

Would that be a solution you are willing to get behind?

I did say that but I also said I was willing to get behind that if everyone else that suffered from lifestyle related illness and disease would also forgo hospital treatment.

 

[Cdkipp]

Penicillin was discovered by an arbitrary observation .... What part of no one is going to study this because there is no money in it .... don't you understand.
I don't care if there is no study ..... I don't care if you don't think there is any value in this preventive measure.
Maybe someone else will .... and do a little research ... and prevent more covid spread. I totally understand that I will never be able to PROVE this prevented anything .... I also can't prove that using synthetic oil in my vehicles prevents problems ... but I do it anyway.

This is an incoherent response. Yes, penicillin was discovered by observation in the lab but it became the mainstay of antibiotic treatment by being proven over and over in countless trials. Exactly what ivermectin cannot do.

 

[Bob B]

This is an incoherent response. Yes, penicillin was discovered by observation in the lab but it became the mainstay of antibiotic treatment by being proven over and over in countless trials. Exactly what ivermectin cannot do.

How about Fluvoxamine? .... quit doing the strawmen

 

[Cdkipp]

I did say that but I also said I was willing to get behind that if everyone else that suffered from lifestyle related illness and disease would also forgo hospital treatment.

Look I strongly admire your adherence to a healthy lifestyle and it makes a huge, difference, especially regarding the quality of life but the reason I said shut up before about cancer is that you vastly underestimate the role of genetics and the exceptional effectiveness of some pathogens.

You bring to mind someone with airbags purposefully crashing into walls or a guy with body armor sprinting across a shooting range field.

 

[Cdkipp]

How about Fluvoxamine? .... quit doing the strawmen

I don't know about fluvoxamine. Still waiting.