Signature Solar's EG4 8k Will it pass inspection in California and Hawaii?

[Mendo Home Power]

Currently I am dealing with the not so easy process of shipping back an EG4 8k because of a variety of issues. Since this is a permitted project, I was looking through the certification documentation for the inverter on Sig Solar's website. It appears that they are using the Megarevo certification and model # for their own EG4 label and model #. This is problematic for a few reasons. The first being, when the inspector looks at the side plate and sees the UL1741 listing on the label and then checks it against the CEC approved list of inverters, nothing will show up because EG4 does not have their own certification under their own brand label. This also means that if a person wants to do net metering, the inverter will not be approved because the Utility uses the CEC list to cross reference for approved inverters. Nowhere on the EG4 inverter is there a reference to the Megarevo certification based on model # or any other type of validating identification.
So, if an inspector does what an inspector is supposed to do with the EG4 8k and verify the certification prior to allowing connection to the grid or even firing the system up in an off grid manner, the EG4 8k will fail.
In my past experience in dealing with UL1741 and CA rule 21 products, the manufacturer and the label must match or it's technically a no go. Technically EG4 is not Megarevo, even though it is. So unless EG4 wants to relabel it's inverters with Megarevo nameplates and model numbers these are going to be nothing but trouble in at least, California and Hawaii.
The other part of the equation is that certified inverters must carry a 10 year warranty in order to connect to the grid. It's part of the certification process. You can't connect to the grid with equipment that has only a few year lifespan or warranty. The spec sheet says it has a three year warranty if you don't use EG4 batteries and a five year warranty if you do. Even if you are using the Lifepower 4 batteries that won't interact in lithium mode, only lead acid mode. So I will end this with the title question; Signature Solar's EG4 8k, Will it pass inspection in California and Hawaii?

 

[dcg9381]

I can see why the cross-label is problematic and rightly so.. That's perhaps a big "whoops" on the part of the vendor.

The other part of the equation is that certified inverters must carry a 10 year warranty in order to connect to the grid. It's part of the certification process. You can't connect to the grid with equipment that has only a few year lifespan or warranty.

This I'm not so sure on. I've been using Frontius for grid tie in Texas. Their warranty is 2-years. Warranty is not lifespan.

EDIT: Looks like their products in the US now carry 10-year warranty...

 

[Mendo Home Power]

I can see why the cross-label is problematic and rightly so.. That's perhaps a big "whoops" on the part of the vendor.


This I'm not so sure on. I've been using Frontius for grid tie in Texas. Their warranty is 2-years. Warranty is not lifespan.

EDIT: Looks like their products in the US now carry 10-year warranty...

In California it's 10 years when tied through PGE for Net Metering

 

[zanydroid]

I haven’t bought any EG4 but when I was considering it I got a very bad taste in my mouth with the company’s professionalism/level of caring with CEC and other California requirements.

I don’t think anything EG4 has ever ended up on the list.

Let’s compare this to Chinese manufacturers selling under their names. A ton of them get CEC approval early and often. So anytime I see another company skipping or making it hard to verify either CEC or 1741SB that is a red flag, it’s not rocket science.

It’s not just EG4, Victron and MidNite don’t seem to care either.

 

[Mendo Home Power]

I haven’t bought any EG4 but when I was considering it I got a very bad taste in my mouth with the company’s professionalism/level of caring with CEC and other California requirements.

I don’t think anything EG4 has ever ended up on the list.

Let’s compare this to Chinese manufacturers selling under their names. A ton of them get CEC approval early and often. So anytime I see another company skipping or making it hard to verify either CEC or 1741SB that is a red flag, it’s not rocket science.

It’s not just EG4, Victron and MidNite don’t seem to care either.

I think the difference with EG4 as compared to Victron or Midnite at least, is that Victron and Midnite don't have any pretense about being grid tie. And they do carry the basic RV type UL listings that have been normal for their industry. I would trust both Victron and Midnite to do what the specs say they will do. EG4 on the other hand is seemingly bypassing the regulatory requirements for grid tie systems while marketing them as such. The marketing language in their product descriptions gets a bit evasive for future culpable deniability, but if you look close into the descriptions you can see the evasion. For the newbie DIYer it doesn't show up on their radar, but if you have done any permitted installs, it becomes obvious.

 

[zanydroid]

I think the difference with EG4 as compared to Victron or Midnite at least, is that Victron and Midnite don't have any pretense about being grid tie. And they do carry the basic RV type UL listings that have been normal for their industry. I would trust both Victron and Midnite to do what the specs say they will do. EG4 on the other hand is seemingly bypassing the regulatory requirements for grid tie systems while marketing them as such. The marketing language in their product descriptions gets a bit evasive for future culpable deniability, but if you look close into the descriptions you can see the evasion. For the newbie DIYer it doesn't show up on their radar, but if you have done any permitted installs, it becomes obvious.

Victron and MidNite both have UL1741 as well as UL458 products. But they are not SB or CEC as far as I can tell.

 

[Mendo Home Power]

Victron and MidNite both have UL1741 as well as UL458 products. But they are not SB or CEC as far as I can tell.

I believe the UL1741 they are on is the 2010, which is what most of the "B" grade inverters that are hybrid but not grid interactive. CEC would only be for interactive.

 

[zanydroid]

I believe the UL1741 they are on is the 2010, which is what most of the "B" grade inverters that are hybrid but not grid interactive. CEC would only be for interactive.

Well what I find weird is that Victron and MidNite picked up new certs in 2022/2023 that were 1741 only on hardware that is (both —multiplus and rosie) power architecture wise able to backfeed, (Victron) grid interactive / ESS approved in developed countries overseas that have comparable regulatory framework to the U.S.

My guess CEC requires submitting some extra paperwork/admin followup for the company to certify it for grid tie with California POCO, I doubt there’s extra NRTL testing needed for that.

 

[zanydroid]

And to clarify a bit, my issue with Victron is that a new US solar DIY person will see how much good documentation/forum engagement there is for its use as grid tie ESS in Europe, pay T-1 price for it, and not be able to get it permitted/PTO.

I guess the Victron ecosystem guardrail against that is picking the right distributor and having a correct scoped conversation about how the equipment is to be used, as part of the due diligence before dropping $5-10k on hardware

 

[tacomaguy20]

Arizona has adopted a lot of the same rules as California just so you know. It will probably have the same issues here.

 

[Mendo Home Power]

Arizona has adopted a lot of the same rules as California just so you know. It will probably have the same issues here.

What's curious is that many end users are choosing to only use the grid as backup and not do the interconnect via Net Metering because Net Metering, here in California has become more beneficial to the utility company than the residential solar provider back-feeding to the grid. I think that if there was more of an honest push from the manufacturers and oem labeling vendors such as Sig Solar to facilitate grid assist systems rather than get caught up in the ever increasing and complex utility run CEC, (or comparable in other states) regulations, they would be able to serve their customers better. And, not get caught up in semi legitimate schemes that will always come back and bite.

 

[dcg9381]

Arizona has adopted a lot of the same rules as California just so you know. It will probably have the same issues here.

Legally, it have the same rules. How much inspection and level of detail is given to these installs seems to "vary greatly". Here, they never even looked at my inverter. They just inspected the physical disconnects. I needed an approved line drawing, etc...

 

[dcg9381]

What's curious is that many end users are choosing to only use the grid as backup and not do the interconnect via Net Metering because Net Metering, here in California has become more beneficial to the utility company than the residential solar provider back-feeding to the grid.

I don't understand this. When I act as a commercial installer, net metering here is by FAR the best choice - it's most economical, has the quickest pay back, etc. But here net metering means kWh per kWh credit, averaged monthly. So it literally pays retail rates (as long as you are net zero or less).

What's different about CA? I mean, other than their odd "duck curve" because they have too much capacity in the grid during high PV days.

 

[Mendo Home Power]

I don't understand this. When I act as a commercial installer, net metering here is by FAR the best choice - it's most economical, has the quickest pay back, etc. But here net metering means kWh per kWh credit, averaged monthly. So it literally pays retail rates (as long as you are net zero or less).

What's different about CA? I mean, other than their odd "duck curve" because they have too much capacity in the grid during high PV days.

With the new Nem3 there was a reduction in payback by 75%, which wasn't that great to begin with. Also written into the rules was the ability to shut down production when not needed by the utility. While all the soalr hucksters are still promoting free electricity, that is far from the truth. Payback is now where it was in the early 2000's when equipment was astronomical in price.
On a personal level I have a Nem1 system at home that I put in back in 2016. It's balanced out on a yearly basis. So if I produce a lot of excess in the spring I can gain a lot of credit but when my yearly true up happens in June, I loose most of it because the credit zeros out on an annual basis.

 

[dcg9381]

With the new Nem3 there was a reduction in payback by 75%, which wasn't that great to begin with. Also written into the rules was the ability to shut down production when not needed by the utility.

A reduction in payback is still called net metering? That's BS.

Last year my power company switched from "net metering" to "fraction of wholesale" For the thousands of installs (like 1.7 of homes in my area) that flipped the economics of solar to "will pay back" to "will NEVER pay back". I made darn sure I voted in the power coop election and chose someone that supports solar.

Yea, CA "overproduction" seem to occur at peak PV times. I agree, based on the above, that batteries are needed and a system that can meter out that power.

 

[Mendo Home Power]

A reduction in payback is net metering? That's BS.
Yea, CA "overproduction" seem to occur at peak PV times. I agree, based on the above, that batteries are needed and a system that can meter out that power.

System payback here in California is now quicker without Net Metering. The hoops to jump through have become far too restrictive and complex. Much easier to do a critical load panel with an interlock that is permitted as a standby and then permit for an backup solar. Eazy peazy. Customer usually pays utility ready to serve fees every month and has backup utility if needed. Which, to get back to the topic of this post, there seems to be problems with the EG4 8k even doing that. Their credentials are for a unit with another brand name and serial number. Not being Net Metered doesn't mean we won't have inspections. The paperwork has to jive.

 

[zanydroid]

System payback here in California is now quicker without Net Metering.

How does this math out? Is it because of minimum monthly charge combined with lower feed-in compensation? Or extra soft costs (I think the only difference in soft costs would be interconnect application fee, since you have the same AHJ fees either way).

 

[zanydroid]

Also written into the rules was the ability to shut down production when not needed by the utility.

This is not new to NEM3. It's part of Smart Inverter requirements since something like 2017, and spans more states than California since it's baked into 1741SA

 

[Mendo Home Power]

How does this math out? Is it because of minimum monthly charge combined with lower feed-in compensation? Or extra soft costs (I think the only difference in soft costs would be interconnect application fee, since you have the same AHJ fees either way).

I should have defined better. It math's out if there are batteries in a grid backup system as opposed to just a straight grid tie Net Metered system.

 

[Mendo Home Power]

This is not new to NEM3. It's part of Smart Inverter requirements since something like 2017, and spans more states than California since it's baked into 1741SA

The part that is new is the requirement for communication between the inverter and the utility. I haven't actually seen that yet but if it's in the rules it will be here soon enough. Although I have experienced it from hz manipulation through the utility. I was monitoring over several months, the period of time that a string inverter I had would shut down on it's own and narrowed it down to the grid frequency shifting to slightly over 60.5hz which was just outside the acceptable range of the inverter. This would happen at specific times in the afternoon around 1:00pm and come back after 3:00pm.