Signature Solar's EG4 8k Will it pass inspection in California and Hawaii?

[solar8484]

Here is the link to the certification that EG4 (Sig Solar) is using for the EG4-8k-EXP https://eg4electronics.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/48V-US-Standard-R5-10KLNA-Certificate.pdf I would challenge anyone to find the EG4 model number on the document. While the Megarevo models show up in the current CEC listings, as referenced on the certificate, EG4 does not. So if one were to submit documents for approval and not want to stress about failing inspection or not getting grid tied through the utility, one would need their model number to match what is on the certification.

So, problem solved if they just put Megarevo on the name plate sticker?

 

[Mendo Home Power]

So, problem solved if they just put Megarevo on the name plate sticker?

And change the side plate to everything Megarevo and not EG4, including the model #

 

[Mendo Home Power]

And change the side plate to everything Megarevo and not EG4, including the model #

Or get their own Certification like they did with the new Lux Power unit

 

[Cheap 4-life]

What's curious is that many end users are choosing to only use the grid as backup and not do the interconnect via Net Metering because Net Metering, here in California has become more beneficial to the utility company than the residential solar provider back-feeding to the grid. I think that if there was more of an honest push from the manufacturers and oem labeling vendors such as Sig Solar to facilitate grid assist systems rather than get caught up in the ever increasing and complex utility run CEC, (or comparable in other states) regulations, they would be able to serve their customers better. And, not get caught up in semi legitimate schemes that will always come back and bite.

I completely disagree with this. It’s a lot easier to install a battery powered grid tie zero export inverter with only a few absolutely needed/critical loads moved to a offgrid/critical subpanel. No reason to have all of the homes loads offgrid. During most peoples short duration infrequent power outages they can get by with only the essentials being powered offgrid. This also allows smaller inverter to be used that doesn’t have to cover surges and the infrequent high power usage of most homes. Yes things in the offgrid panel can be turned off and not powered. But most homes are already wired up with all their loads in a main panel. I guess the power to the home can be disconnected and a panel with just a main breaker installed before the existing main panel, which now makes the main panel the offgrid/subpanel. But then neutral/grounds and more stuff has to be rewired. Much easier to simply move a few critical loads to an offgrid panel..

As for net metering,, in most areas an agreement isn’t needed when using a hybrid zero export grid tie inverter function. Inspection yes to assure Antiislanding. The only person benefiting from that is the home owner who isn’t overworking their inverter because the grid is handling all the start up surges unlike an install that has all the loads offgrid.. ease of install etc etc.

Sig selling grid tie zero export inverters is a good thing. It’s how most users use a SolArk and there’s many benefits not mentioned doing the setup that way. A lot of newer inverter are starting to have grid tie zero export because of all the benefits.. if there’s no grid connection to the home then a true hybrid with zero export grid tie functionality would not be the best choice. There’s other better inverter/chargers for offgrid..

 

[zanydroid]

as for net metering,, an agreement isn’t needed when using a hybrid zero export grid tie inverter function.

This has to be POCO dependent. PG&E has a half dozen pages in Rule21 covering zero export rules and corner cases for commercial/industrial users. EG covering the limit of how much the zero export is allowed to exceed.

I don’t know how to navigate that document well enough to see if there is a residential exclusion.

I think it’s safer (for people like me not in professional regulation reading profession and not given a direct regulation reference from a specific POCO) to assume that the POCO cares about parallel operation of any sort. EG if I was a professional installer in California I would rely on a staffer/lobbiest/lawyer in CalSSA to publish a doc walking me through it.

 

[Cheap 4-life]

Before your post I edited. Changed it to most areas do not need net metering agreement for zero export inverters

 

[zanydroid]

Before your post I edited. Changed it to most areas do not need net metering agreement for zero export inverters

OK sure. I think you would need some kind of agreement (b/c you connected a generator, IE the inverter) to the grid. It doesn't have to be a NET METERING agreement.

But it probably varies a lot what specific agreement type you need. IMO it would make sense to be penalized less if you opt out of net metering (since you get less benefit). That was actually a contingency plan CalSSA was pushing back in 2021 in the first attempt at revising Net Metering here, where they were close to passing a new monthly "tax" proportional to W-DC of your system.

 

[Cheap 4-life]

OK sure. I think you would need some kind of agreement (b/c you connected a generator, IE the inverter) to the grid. It doesn't have to be a NET METERING agreement.

But it probably varies a lot what specific agreement type you need. IMO it would make sense to be penalized less if you opt out of net metering (since you get less benefit). That was actually a contingency plan CalSSA was pushing back in 2021 in the first attempt at revising Net Metering here, where they were close to passing a new monthly "tax" proportional to W-DC of your system.

If not feeding into the grid there should only need to be an inspection (maybe permit) same as an offgrid setup needs. an inspection would differ only by making sure the inverter connected to the grid has Antiislanding..
yeah there might be some crazy taxes in some areas.. I don’t see how anyone can be “penalized“ at all for having a zero export system.. but I’m sure in some areas (I would never live) there is craziness like that

 

[zanydroid]

As I said parallel Interconnect without agreement sounds pretty sus to me given that physics of the power topology means power will bleed into the POCO, both during regular operation and equipment failures.

But I guess we have to agree to disagree, since I don’t have a regulation reference to give you.

 

[Cheap 4-life]

Why does it sound sus without an agreement if an inspection is done to assure Antiislanding to not harm lineman? My system had very negligible “bleeding”. Nothing an electric company would be concerned with. I’m not sure which equipment failure your referring to. If the CTs fail the inverter will produce nothing. I’d think a metering agreement would only be needed if the home owner wants credit for backfeed and to assure the array isn’t sized to large to pump to much power into the grid..

 

[zanydroid]

I just searched for "rule 21 parallel operation", and I got numerous hits saying the POCO needs to be involved.

1st hit is from a municipal utility in California, there's a few more from the SDGE IOU.

https://www.mid.org/tariffs/rules/rule_21.pdf

"1. A Producer must comply with this Rule, execute an Interconnection Agreement with the District, and receive the District’s express written permission before parallel operation of its Generating Facility with the District’s Distribution System."

"Parallel Operation: The simultaneous operation of a generator with power delivered or received by the District while interconnected. For the purpose of this Rule, parallel operation includes only those Generating Facilities that are interconnected with the District’s Distribution System for more than 60 cycles (one second)."

EDIT: General note, esp for people in California. This municipal utility's Rule21 document is WAY shorter and simpler than the IOU Rule21 documents.

 

[Cheap 4-life]

I just searched for "rule 21 parallel operation", and I got numerous hits saying the POCO needs to be involved.

1st hit is from a municipal utility in California, there's a few more from the SDGE IOU.

https://www.mid.org/tariffs/rules/rule_21.pdf

"1. A Producer must comply with this Rule, execute an Interconnection Agreement with the District, and receive the District’s express written permission before parallel operation of its Generating Facility with the District’s Distribution System."

"Parallel Operation: The simultaneous operation of a generator with power delivered or received by the District while interconnected. For the purpose of this Rule, parallel operation includes only those Generating Facilities that are interconnected with the District’s Distribution System for more than 60 cycles (one second)."

EDIT: General note, esp for people in California. This municipal utility's Rule21 document is WAY shorter and simpler than the IOU Rule21 documents.

Yeah as I said there might be some craziness in some highly populated areas like California.. in my area for example all I needed was an inspection to assure properly labeled outdoor disconnect and Antiislanding.. I can also backfeed into the grid now if I wanted. I wouldn’t get credit or paid for it and electric company would get my power for free. I instead save my excess power into a battery bank. I pay no extra tax or fee.

 

[zanydroid]

That municipal utility is in the rural part of the state.

 

[Cheap 4-life]

some places have crazy pointless rules and regulations to make more money off the people.. again places I wouldn’t live. However this post did state cali, but anyways my original comment was disagreeing with the comment that offgrid using grid assist is more so what should be concentrated on and sold.. there’s many areas that’s not what should be the main focus now that grid tie zero export with batteries is a thing

 

[Mendo Home Power]

I completely disagree with this. It’s a lot easier to install a battery powered grid tie zero export inverter with only a few absolutely needed/critical loads moved to a offgrid/critical subpanel. No reason to have all of the homes loads offgrid. During most peoples short duration infrequent power outages they can get by with only the essentials being powered offgrid. This also allows smaller inverter to be used that doesn’t have to cover surges and the infrequent high power usage of most homes. Yes things in the offgrid panel can be turned off and not powered. But most homes are already wired up with all their loads in a main panel. I guess the power to the home can be disconnected and a panel with just a main breaker installed before the existing main panel, which now makes the main panel the offgrid/subpanel. But then neutral/grounds and more stuff has to be rewired. Much easier to simply move a few critical loads to an offgrid panel..

As for net metering,, in most areas an agreement isn’t needed when using a hybrid zero export grid tie inverter function. Inspection yes to assure Antiislanding. The only person benefiting from that is the home owner who isn’t overworking their inverter because the grid is handling all the start up surges unlike an install that has all the loads offgrid.. ease of install etc etc.

Sig selling grid tie zero export inverters is a good thing. It’s how most users use a SolArk and there’s many benefits not mentioned doing the setup that way. A lot of newer inverter are starting to have grid tie zero export because of all the benefits.. if there’s no grid connection to the home then a true hybrid with zero export grid tie functionality would not be the best choice. There’s other better inverter/chargers for offgrid..

I don't disagree with you but heres the rub, It's not marketed by Signature Solar for what it is. It's an inverter that is useful in a limited market where Net Metering Agreements don't apply. They don't even have the certifications for their branding to do it. Talk to a different tech support person and there is a different story on setup. It's marketed as an all-in-one inverter. I suggest that you purchase one and set it up before doing any more in depth analysis. You have stated that you have never installed one so until you do.......... You Tube videos on the topic are just that. Nothing like real experience with a product. As I stated in the beginning, I've installed Sol-Ark and this ain't that.

 

[dcg9381]

Are you in AZ and do you have a battery? Which inverter?

Texas. And before the 10-year warranty rule. My grid tie inverters are Frontius. No batteries in my residence/shop.

 

[tacomaguy20]

Texas. And before the 10-year warranty rule. My grid tie inverters are Frontius. No batteries in my residence/shop.

Gotcha, it seems to me that now is kind of an in-between time where the solar companies are trying to catch up to the new rules (but they aren't rules everywhere yet). So I suppose they are ahead of the curve in one sense but also behind in places like CA & AZ). That makes it harder for me and people who live in these states... as well as very expensive. For instance, there seems to be a lot of hybrid systems coming out but very few inverter + battery combos approved for California (and similar states) and even fewer that have been tested for compatibility that meets UL9540 standards. Pretty much Sol-ark is the only option. But within the next six months or so, it looks like that could change. Luxpower, EG4, etc. are all supposedly trying to get approval. I was shopping for solar but unless I want to go inverter only (and upgrade later) I think it benefits me to wait.

 

[dcg9381]

Gotcha, it seems to me that now is kind of an in-between time where the solar companies are trying to catch up to the new rules (but they aren't rules everywhere yet). So I suppose they are ahead of the curve in one sense but also behind in places like CA & AZ). That makes it harder for me and people who live in these states... as well as very expensive. For instance, there seems to be a lot of hybrid systems coming out but very few inverter + battery combos approved for California (and similar states) and even fewer that have been tested for compatibility that meets UL9540 standards. Pretty much Sol-ark is the only option. But within the next six months or so, it looks like that could change. Luxpower, EG4, etc. are all supposedly trying to get approval. I was shopping for solar but unless I want to go inverter only (and upgrade later) I think it benefits me to wait.

Adding to that there is tremendous variation in how much permitting / oversight is required at different locations. I think it's always best to have a conversation with the person doing the inspecting, if possible.

 

[tacomaguy20]

So I just found out from one of the engineers that my power company (SRP) uses in Arizona that Panels, Inverters, and Batteries need to be on the CEC approval list. However, what I was told is that UL9540 is not required (inverter + batteries certified together) so long as batteries and inverter are on the list. So that's a little easier to configure a system.

 

[Hedges]

In California it's 10 years when tied through PGE for Net Metering

Equipment has to have 10 year warranty to be used in California's NEM

How does this math out? Is it because of minimum monthly charge combined with lower feed-in compensation? Or extra soft costs (I think the only difference in soft costs would be interconnect application fee, since you have the same AHJ fees either way).

I think "net" metering customers are required to select a time of use rate. And regular customers are not.

 

[bfaubion]

Not sure if anyone can answer this, thought I’d ask. I’m with SDGE and they have a list of approved UL equipment, but I don’t see EG4. If you are using a zero-export “backup” off-grid hybrid inverter like the 6000xp that has a critical loads panel, so still connected to grid as a power source coming in to the inverter (along with batteries and solar panels), does that mean that you can only install that inverter if it’s on their list? Or will they even bother to look at it since it doesn’t need an agreement or permit to export? It is UL 1741.

 

[zanydroid]

If zero export implies the output of the inverter is put in parallel then that required an interconnection agreement and it is likely that most POCO will step up detection of the export signature of unapproved equipment. It is much easier for them to detect than it is for you to hide parallel equipment.