Has anybody used the Rosie inverter yet for prime time?

[Hedges]

Probably. Cost and shipping weight are significantly reduced.
High voltage batteries is the other piece of the puzzle.

In most cases, performance and reliability will suffer. Some exceptions from exceptional brands.
Same is typically seen in tools, vehicles, appliances, instruments. But cost reduction and vastly increased market.

 

[realpinochet]

I'm still leaning more towards the xwpro, proven track record. And, since I like ham radio it's LF provides less interference. I just wish Schneider / outback would start releasing higher wattage inverters and also higher voltage ones. I'm surprised either one doesn't have a 12Kw inverter when the rest of the industry has moved into 15-20Kw. That's one reason I've been looking at these..but I never heard of sandi before a few days ago.

Off Grid Inverter-Zhejiang Sandi Electric Co.,Ltd

www.sandi.cc

 

[SpongeboB Sinewave]

"Completely bidirectional" - is that different from other HF inverters that do AC coupling? (SolArk, Skybox)

Rosie and B17 are bidirectional HV to LV DC to DC converters. That is, the battery to HV side circuitry.

The All In One, Hybrid Chinese-ish inverters can be bidirectional or not. The first one I looked at a few years ago, in particular the Taiwanese (I think) MPP-Solar, was definitely separate battery to AC inverter and AC to battery circuitry and so, not bidirectional.

I had looked at the Sol-Ark and it looked to me like it was bidirectional but RCF in Fla said it was not bi I think.

Being bi-directional has to do with the high voltage side of the battery DC to DC converter's HV rectifier being a synchronous rectifier. (Edit: Typically)

Rosie, B17 and looking to me like the Sol-Ark (Deye) was synchronously rectified.

boB

P.S. The low frequency transformer inverter/chargers are just a high frequency but low voltage full-bridge (usually) making the sine-wave and are naturally bi-directional.

 

[zanydroid]

I’m keeping an eye on this inverter too. I noticed no mention of 1741SB, are there plans to get it listed as such so that it can be connected to grid in more places?

Or can the transfer switch and bidirectional architecture be configured to not run in parallel with grid and still have 0ms transfer time?

 

[zanydroid]

The Schneider doesn't have the software to charge from AC solar when on grid, so I had to add an external controller and program it.
Edit: Schneider also refuses to admit that is a deficiency in the software and are not going to address it.

This might be related to how the XW pro has a UL1741 certificate attesting that it has a PCS Export only mode. This is something that streamlines getting approval for PG&E’s NEM with storage.

 

[rs50pilot]

@SpongeboB Sinewave
Is Rosie going to AC couple with Enphase iq7plus?

Also are comms for batteries like SOK and EG4 server racks going to work?

In the webinar NAZ did, I remember something about a "com box" for remote viewing. Is that still in the works?

I'm looking for ac coupled solution for home backup when PGE decides to shut off our power and to run my batteries during peak time.

I don't need charge controllers, I just need a good inverter that will communicate with my SOK server rack batteries.

Remote viewing/control of the inverter is also important to me.

 

[SpongeboB Sinewave]

.....
I think a key issue is that boost converters have to pump up the current over multiple HF switching cycles, and power delivery is limited to energy stored in the inductor.

Gotta keep those HV capacitors at a voltage where the inverter section can have a wee bit extra for the sinewave peak. I like plenty of extra room which means a higher battery voltage if possible. It can take a few cycles to pump those suckers up but of course can also make things heat up.

A pure LF inverter (not using HF buck to drive the transformer) can drive MSW and surge current is massive, large multiple of whatever it was rated for. So long as transistors can deliver the current. I understand transformer core saturation, but I don't have a good handle on what limits the current which can be transferred.

As long as you're below core saturation but above some minimum, (design is a compromise, right ?), it's conductor size and MOSFET RdsOn that determines max current for the inverter itself. But then there's battery impedance and battery cable size and length, etc too.

....

Trace reportedly did MSW with multiple transformer taps, so the modified square wave became multiple steps, and cleverly engineered transformer non-ideality filtered it.

Yes, those old ones like the U series were a Push-Pull primary type MSW inverter. The primary 12V FETs had to be rated for at least twice the battery voltage because of the PP topology acting as a 2X Auto-Former. One transformer tap was just for clamping reactive power from low power factor loads.

There was another tap just for the triac charger... Like a light dimmer.

Then came the DR series that was full-bridge LF MSW. No need for the extra clamp tap and the FETs could be lower Vds and of course, lower RdsOn.

I have a couple ideas of how buck converter could support greater surge from modern LF (with HF buck) inverters.

Love talking about this stuff. All ears !

boB

 

[SpongeboB Sinewave]

@SpongeboB Sinewave
Is Rosie going to AC couple with Enphase iq7plus?

Yes. That's just software if they are just +60Hz- frequency shifting operated. So far, this is fairly standard practice so not much difference from one micro-inverter to another. Thank you SMA (I think) for making this standard practice.
The old Sunny Boys had to have some kind of RS485 (?) connection to the Sunny Island as I remember. UL I think made them do that. But why?

Also are comms for batteries like SOK and EG4 server racks going to work?

Yes. The EG4s at least are widely used now and I guess the SOK are getting up there in use too ? Closed loop is getting to be a big deal now !
But there are many battery companies that want their batteries to communicate with chargers. We get a lot of requests.

The hinderance is that they are not all standardized communications which takes a lot more engineering resources to add.
Some are CANBUS and some are RS-485 and I remember about 10 years ago one BMS that gave a logic signal to turn the charger (MPPT) on and off. That's why the Classic has a logic input too as long as you're not using it for the Whizbang Junior for SOC measurement.

In the webinar NAZ did, I remember something about a "com box" for remote viewing. Is that still in the works?

Yes. The comm-box, which we call it, (I don't care for the name), has an Orange-Pi in it that talks to an add on board for RS-485, Two CANBUS channels, RS-232 and Ethernet. The RS-232 is to talk natively to Classics.

The only issue presently is that these CGNAT internet ISPs like T-Mobile or Space-X don't allow port-forwarding which would be the simple way to get the data out of and in to the premises. So a server (like My MidNite) or tunneling will be necessary until IPV6 becomes common OR one can afford the extra charge for a real IPV4 connection with your own IP address. Works GREAT on your LAN or forwarded IP though right now !

I'm looking for ac coupled solution for home backup when PGE decides to shut off our power and to run my batteries during peak time.

I don't need charge controllers, I just need a good inverter that will communicate with my SOK server rack batteries.

Remote viewing/control of the inverter is also important to me.

We'll get there. Sooner than later I hope !

boB

 

[rs50pilot]

Yes. That's just software if they are just +60Hz- frequency shifting operated. So far, this is fairly standard practice so not much difference from one micro-inverter to another. Thank you SMA (I think) for making this standard practice.
The old Sunny Boys had to have some kind of RS485 (?) connection to the Sunny Island as I remember. UL I think made them do that. But why?

I'm not sure how the magic all works, I would just like it to work. It would be another step towards me buying a Rosie. I did't see any mention of AC coupling in the manual. Would there need to be any extra hardware to purchase?

Yes. The EG4s at least are widely used now and I guess the SOK are getting up there in use too ? Closed loop is getting to be a big deal now !
But there are many battery companies that want their batteries to communicate with chargers. We get a lot of requests.

SOK batteries are great, they also use the same BMS as orient power, and Jakiper and probably others. Could knock out at least three different batteries with one set of software. I'm sure Dexter at current connected would be happy to give you what ever you needed. As would every battery manufacture I assume.

Yes. The comm-box, which we call it, (I don't care for the name), has an Orange-Pi in it that talks to an add on board for RS-485, Two CANBUS channels, RS-232 and Ethernet. The RS-232 is to talk natively to Classics.

The only issue presently is that these CGNAT internet ISPs like T-Mobile or Space-X don't allow port-forwarding which would be the simple way to get the data out of and in to the premises. So a server (like My MidNite) or tunneling will be necessary until IPV6 becomes common OR one can afford the extra charge for a real IPV4 connection with your own IP address. Works GREAT on your LAN or forwarded IP though right now !




We'll get there. Sooner than later I hope !

boB

What info can you see with the Comm-box right now? Can you make any changes the the inverter with it?

I need a inverter that is mainly just a UPS or ESS. One that I can run during peak times and when the grid goes down it will take over.
I would like it to AC couple although right now it is not that important.
Battery communication is a must.
Then remote viewing would be the icing on the cake.

I use solar assistant to control my LV6548 right now. Maybe that could be an option?

I also like the fact that Rosie will take a 120v generator and still output split phase, saves me from having to buy a new generator.

Rosie is moving to the top of my list. Solark is too big and bulky, new eg4 looks good, but it is giant as well, and I do not need all the extras
it comes with. Rosie is nice and small and light. Looks like she has big power as well. Hopefully you guys will make her better.

 

[SpongeboB Sinewave]

I'm not sure how the magic all works, I would just like it to work. It would be another step towards me buying a Rosie. I did't see any mention of AC coupling in the manual. Would there need to be any extra hardware to purchase?

No extra hardware. You might have to tell the MNGP2 (remote LCD) to turn it on and off though.

SOK batteries are great, they also use the same BMS as orient power, and Jakiper and probably others. Could knock out at least three different batteries with one set of software. I'm sure Dexter at current connected would be happy to give you what ever you needed. As would every battery manufacture I assume.

Duplication would be great ! Less engineering work.

What info can you see with the Comm-box right now? Can you make any changes the the inverter with it?

Anything that comes across the bus or is transmittable on the bus. Just menus on the MNGP2 have to be made but the Comm box is much easier and faster to deal with.

I need a inverter that is mainly just a UPS or ESS. One that I can run during peak times and when the grid goes down it will take over.

Relay's input relay is either open or closed the Rosie's output is always connected... So as long as it regulates fast, you have 0 time transfer.
We try to reduce flicker etc... to an absolute minimum. Not easy to do always but...

I would like it to AC couple although right now it is not that important.

Battery communication is a must.

ASAP I hope.

Then remote viewing would be the icing on the cake.

Comm box will allow that. Just need to take care of that nasty CGNAT type of ISP. Now, something like emailing or FTP'ing information at intervals might be a fast and first way to go ?

I use solar assistant to control my LV6548 right now. Maybe that could be an option?

I also like the fact that Rosie will take a 120v generator and still output split phase, saves me from having to buy a new generator.

Rosie is moving to the top of my list. Solark is too big and bulky, new eg4 looks good, but it is giant as well, and I do not need all the extras
it comes with. Rosie is nice and small and light. Looks like she has big power as well. Hopefully you guys will make her better.

 

[Hedges]

Yes. That's just software if they are just +60Hz- frequency shifting operated. So far, this is fairly standard practice so not much difference from one micro-inverter to another. Thank you SMA (I think) for making this standard practice.
The old Sunny Boys had to have some kind of RS485 (?) connection to the Sunny Island as I remember. UL I think made them do that. But why?

Modes were "UL-1741", frequency 59.3 Hz ... 60.5 Hz
and "Offgrid" 55.5 Hz to 64.5 Hz.

With RS485 connection SI would signal SB to use the wider "Offgrid" frequency range when grid disconnected.
If "Backup Mode" set to "On all". But if grid down or off-grid, while SI sits at 59 Hz SB won't connect and won't talk to your control device so you can configure it. So they later shipped with Backup Mode already enabled. I ran into that, so switched grid on.

I've tried to trigger on the signal with a scope but I've never seen it. I had a Sunny Boy Control connected as RS-485 bus master. It could set parameters and see live data. If grid was disconnected, SB would get a signal from SI and switch to backup operation. I could see Sunny Boy Control's signals and SB data coming back, but not that signal from SI.

The newer SB don't use that RS485. In writing SMA says to use Rule-21. In videos from SMA America, they say to set for Offgrid.
I figure the original German engineers knew something the social media guys in US do not. FMEA? Grid relay welding shut is something I would worry about, if SB wasn't doing anti-islanding.

 

[Hedges]

Love talking about this stuff. All ears !

boB

One would be just let the inductor saturate, become a short between battery and transformer primary. Then it would operate as MSW.

The other I was thinking that higher frequency switching of buck converter could transfer more power for surge, at expense of transistor heating.
(I'm not 100% clear on the architecture, but envision buck with transistor, inductor, capacitor, then H-bridge driving transformer.)

 

[realpinochet]

@SpongeboB Sinewave

So, do you guys plan on releasing Rosie or her big sister with HV battery input? Aims just released one that is stackable..I believe it's up to 400V bat input. If so is there a timeline? Is Rosie stackable yet? It would be awesome to see one of your high end inverters that is easy to deploy with all the built in breakers and such like solark with:

1. A higher current output
2. 200A relays for grid input
3. HV battery input

 

[rhino]

2. Is the Rosie Stackable?
- MN ... Currently it is not stackable that is the next feature and we are assuming about 4 weeks to get to that (as of Feb 2023). We will start at 2 but quickly support 4. Then in the immediate future we plan to go to 10

Any word on this?

 

[SpongeboB Sinewave]

Any word on this?

Stacking works on Rosie now. That was just software. But comparably easy software.

 

[Hedges]

Are you going to keep web page, data sheet, and manual up to date regarding stacking, 3-phase, etc?
I just looked there and couldn't find reference to that.

Category Products - MidNite Solar's

MidNite Solar Category Products.

www.midnitesolar.com

Alt E store says 20kW surge

MidNite Solar Rosie 7048RE 7kW Hybrid Inverter

MidNite’s Rosie is a 7kW hybrid inverter and 48V battery charger with intelligent customizable grid connection features and incredible 20kW surge capacity.

www.altestore.com

But Midnight data sheet says 15kVA and 60A 60 seconds (14.4kVA at 240V),
manual says 160A for 180 ms, which at 120V would be 19.2kW, 240V 38.4kW
(but such a short time I think is only good for fast-tripping 30A breaker, not for starting motor loads.
(might be good for transformer and SMPS capacitor inrush.)

 

[SpongeboB Sinewave]

Are you going to keep web page, data sheet, and manual up to date regarding stacking, 3-phase, etc?
I just looked there and couldn't find reference to that.

Category Products - MidNite Solar's

MidNite Solar Category Products.

www.midnitesolar.com

Alt E store says 20kW surge

MidNite Solar Rosie 7048RE 7kW Hybrid Inverter

MidNite’s Rosie is a 7kW hybrid inverter and 48V battery charger with intelligent customizable grid connection features and incredible 20kW surge capacity.

www.altestore.com

But Midnight data sheet says 15kVA and 60A 60 seconds (14.4kVA at 240V),
manual says 160A for 180 ms, which at 120V would be 19.2kW, 240V 38.4kW
(but such a short time I think is only good for fast-tripping 30A breaker, not for starting motor loads.
(might be good for transformer and SMPS capacitor inrush.)

Ooops ! Will see about this. It is possible that both are true, in a way. I am pretty happy with the 15 kVA rating but we have definitely seen 20+ watts output.

Surge has been a slight moving target for specifications. Also, surging for a time can be interpreted differently at different power levels.

But like any inverter, surge will be less time when the unit is hot.

The surge level also is determined but how high we want the overall current to limit to.

I think there is a 30 minute and a 10 minute and 10% overload for the UL tests, etc. High surge power is REALLY only needed for a few seconds or maybe even just 1 second to start big loads which Rosie does at any definition I would say.

She is pretty tough. We have also turned OFF the current limit for certain tests and the surge is even more than 20k. But that wouldn't be good for a shipping product. It is sure fun though to watch !

boB

 

[SpongeboB Sinewave]

@SpongeboB Sinewave

So, do you guys plan on releasing Rosie or her big sister with HV battery input? Aims just released one that is stackable..I believe it's up to 400V bat input. If so is there a timeline? Is Rosie stackable yet? It would be awesome to see one of your high end inverters that is easy to deploy with all the built in breakers and such like solark with:

1. A higher current output
2. 200A relays for grid input
3. HV battery input

We discuss HV batteries once in a while but not a lot in regard to Rosie. Her topology would have to be changed some to tap into the HV link rail to do that. It would be easier to tap her HV rail for something like an all in one though.

We have a Rosie breaker box. That can also come that way as a pre-wired system because, usually, people don't like to wire all this stuff. DIYers may be different ?

We figure that 7KW inverter (or 8KW) isn't going to be large enough to put in a 200A pass through. It's not enough to power your whole house so isn't too fair to compare to a Sol-Ark 15K. The S-A 12K doesn't have a 200A pass through relay as far as I know ? It might ?

We don't think that someone passing through their whole house with only a 7kW inverter only to find that the inverter shuts off.
SMA just says, "turn off loads". That works but then again, the inverter will turn off so it is not the best.

When we get grid-tie and (we think) a 15K inverter... THAT will have 200 amps pass through. Those kinds of transfer switches are evidently off the shelf that you can buy.

Each B17 will start off with 80 amp pass through relay but contacts rated for even higher than that.

boB

 

[rs50pilot]

Can Rosie be configured to run off of battery only by time of day? I want to offset peak times. I didn't see it in the manual.

Also where does the MNGP2 mount? On the wall somewhere?

 

[SpongeboB Sinewave]

Can Rosie be configured to run off of battery only by time of day? I want to offset peak times. I didn't see it in the manual.

I asked the guys about this and evidently does support time of use.

Also where does the MNGP2 mount? On the wall somewhere?

There is a bracket that hangs off the side of the Rosie for the MNGP2