Ive had solar for a year and now the utility company charges a demand fee... not cool.

hankcurt said:

It's all a very closed loop, efficient system. It makes me happy.

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I looked for one seven years ago and they were not ready for prime time yet. Sounds like it is time to look again.

zanydroid said:

This is what I thought a few months back, until a friend of mine started complaining. But it's really coming in vogue these days. I think it made its way into some widely-shared pointy-hair boss slide decks in the industry in the past few years and now coming to fruition.

A while back Emporia started targeting peak shaving, and it targets the entry level residential market. They're also based in Colorado, which has residential demand charges :laugh:

They're not bothering with demand charges here in California, but they did add hour-by-hour feed-in bonuses for the new solar tariff. Which is sort of the inverse. And some of the hour slots are insanely high in August/September, when our grid gets walloped pretty heavily in late afternoon/early evening

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Emporia does a good job tracking 15 minute peak demand.. I wish I could utilize their app for battery discharge peak shaving... but you must use their battery... I do plan to get their EV charger as I really enjoy their vue monitor/app

zanydroid said:

t's really coming in vogue these days. I think it made its way into some widely-shared pointy-hair boss slide decks in the industry in the past few years and now coming to fruition.

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I like the concept of the utility incentivizing customer feed in when its needed. These incentives would let customers benefit from using small battery systems to help out the grid.

This is much better than the 'pointy haired boss' option.

It's interesting watching the various Power Companies trying to squeeze more money from people who have Solar.
I suspect that at some point when a different administration in power the kids gloves are going to come off and they will enact even more direct policies to punish people who are grid tied.
I am slowly getting myself off the Grid for this very reason. I am now at 3.5Kwh per day from the Grid and using 40KWh total. In summer that will probably go up to the typical 55KWh and I expect grid usage to be at 8-10 KWh.
One more battery and a little more load management would fix the issue but the tiny little Bill just cannot justify buying another battery. Also I believe they are just going to make the penalty a minimum monthly bill that will be outrageous for people who only use a small amount of power.
At my age I get worried about coming off the Grid completely because my wife would be extremely unhappy.

hankcurt said:

I do have some experience with an LG heat pump dryer.

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hankcurt said:

Meaning that I put in wet clothes, and a while later I have dry clothes in one compartment, and the water that was moved out of the clothes in another compartment. It's all a very closed loop, efficient system. It makes me happy.

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Why does it condense and store the water in another compartment?

ksmithaz1 said:

Stick with air-to-air. Water-to-air is a neat idea, that never seems to pan out as intended. Yea they were saying like -20C or so for some of the newer heat pumps if memory serves. Pretty amazing, but you ought to be able to get even lower, absolute zero is -270C or something.

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Doesn't geothermal retain a decent COP at lower temp than A2A? That said, it feels like investing in a system to hand down to your grandkids...

hankcurt said:

Meaning that I put in wet clothes, and a while later I have dry clothes in one compartment, and the water that was moved out of the clothes in another compartment. It's all a very closed loop, efficient system. It makes me happy.

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robby said:

Why does it condense and store the water in another compartment?

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The reason for storing in another compartment is to avoid the need for a drain. You take the water from the compartment and dump it down the sink. Not sure why people don't just drain it the same hole as the washer. I guess it's for flexibility (the ones with a compartment can usually be configured to drain directly or to fill in a compartment). You can toss a dryer with a condensate compartment anywhere in the house, that has electricity.

One of the elegant things about the combo units is that the washer side already drains out anyway, so no reconfiguration is needed in the laundry space.

Another notion of "closed loop": a HP dryer is different from a HPWH or ASHP in that it doesn't necessarily cool the air outside. Rather, it recovers a lot of heat from condensing out the water that has been extracted from the clothes.

Ampster said:

I looked for one seven years ago and they were not ready for prime time yet. Sounds like it is time to look again.

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Take a look at the GE and LG full sized combos. They've been very hot the past 12-18 months in some circles.

robby said:

Why does it condense and store the water in another compartment?

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As @zanydroid said above, I could directly drain the water from the dryer. It wasn't convenient to drain it by gravity until I could stack the dryer on the washer, and I didn't want a hose running across the floor to the floor drain so I left it configured to catch the water in the compartment that is built into the dryer for that purpose. Now, I use the water from the dryer to water house plants since it has lower mineral content than the tap water.

hankcurt said:

As @zanydroid said above, I could directly drain the water from the dryer. It wasn't convenient to drain it by gravity until I could stack the dryer on the washer, and I didn't want a hose running across the floor to the floor drain so I left it configured to catch the water in the compartment that is built into the dryer for that purpose. Now, I use the water from the dryer to water house plants since it has lower mineral content than the tap water.

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Doesn’t the built in condensate pump lift it high enough for most situations? Or was it a convenience and not a law of physics thing?

zanydroid said:

Or was it a convenience and not a law of physics thing?

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It was entirely configuration of the drains and layout of the room, and where I was willing to run a hose.
So esthetics, not physics.

Got it. I don’t know much about plumbing but I sort of assumed it’s possible to find some kind of Y adapter that can dock with the drain hole and accept both the drain of laundry machine and of the HP dryer.

zanydroid said:

Another notion of "closed loop": a HP dryer is different from a HPWH or ASHP in that it doesn't necessarily cool the air outside. Rather, it recovers a lot of heat from condensing out the water that has been extracted from the clothes.

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I have an air to air condensing dryer in our rental condo. It adds a lot of heat to the place, they say.

After I raised it from the floor onto a shelf, to insert a washer that was top load, it wasn't drying.
My shelf support let it tilt slightly, and water didn't drain out of the air path to sump.

I always ignored that stuff about "must be level", but it matters for condensing dryers.

zanydroid said:

Got it. I don’t know much about plumbing but I sort of assumed it’s possible to find some kind of Y adapter that can dock with the drain hole and accept both the drain of laundry machine and of the HP dryer.

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Ours has a skinny enough discharge hose that it fits in the same hole.
Otherwise, you could certainly assemble a Y.

Peak shaving - I'm now playing with Sunny Boy Storage + LG RESU-10H + Wattnode.

Adding Wattnode was the key to getting it to do anything, because configuration at this time will discharge only to the point of zero import, and charge only to the point of zero export.

I've tried to set the modes "Force charge offpeak" and "discharge on-peak" but they aren't doing anything yet.

It has quite early firmware, plan to update but firmware available calls for 3 lower number updates first. Not on SMA's website, so I have support request for them to provide those.

robby said:

It's interesting watching the various Power Companies trying to squeeze more money from people who have Solar.
I suspect that at some point when a different administration in power the kids gloves are going to come off and they will enact even more direct policies to punish people who are grid tied.
I am slowly getting myself off the Grid for this very reason. I am now at 3.5Kwh per day from the Grid and using 40KWh total. In summer that will probably go up to the typical 55KWh and I expect grid usage to be at 8-10 KWh.
One more battery and a little more load management would fix the issue but the tiny little Bill just cannot justify buying another battery. Also I believe they are just going to make the penalty a minimum monthly bill that will be outrageous for people who only use a small amount of power.
At my age I get worried about coming off the Grid completely because my wife would be extremely unhappy.

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I started building my addiction a year ago

Load shaving (time of use) saves me approximately 100 / month on H VAC in the summer. I burn wood in winter. I have more panels now. So now I need more inverter and battery. Next biggest cost is hot water. I shower launder etc as much as possible during off peak. Next will be a heat pump water heater. I also plan to run it on heat pump only mode. Reducing its peak demand....

I sort of understand the peak demand cost . Infrastructure does cost. I am pricing my new inverter now... 3k inverter vs 5 vs 12.. As I reduce my grid usage the power co wires still cost the same. Huge debate in my state over transmission cost. Lobbyist got our rates lowered for commercial and increased on residential. Allegations of Residential not paying their fair share....

Air source vs ground source heat pump. Absolutely ground over air. The ground has a constant temperature (dig down far enough). Will absorb energy more consistently, has more energy than air at low ambient temps where air to air struggles. In summer, the hotter the air, the harder it is to pump heat into it. I too have the availability to dig my own ground loop. Just have not wanted to dig up the yard or making the investment yet. Especially with wood heat. I am considering installing before my age prohibits the cost saving of self installing the loop... Otherwise it will be an air source..

Google heating fuel comparison calculator and look for an xls spreadsheet. I downloaded it years ago. Could not find the link easily. Found one the state of Maine.gov seems to be the same... It has almost every form of energy and you can enter the efficiency and cost per unit of your gas, oil, electric, pellets, coal as your energy source. Then it will tell you how many dollars it cost to make or move the BTU's. Learned this decades ago. We had to calculate the daily cost of Nat gas vs oil because we got charged demand usage. We fired our boilers off fuel oil on those days. We had to have both for redundancy etc...So we just ran the cheaper fuel of the day....

As for the OP ROI and independence are motivating factors for me...

hwy17 said:

Turn off aux heat and set the HPWH to heat pump only mode would go a long way here. You could get a williams direct vent wall furnace to use instead of the aux.

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Another thought is looking to upgrade the heat pump to a true cold weather rated heat pump like a Gree Multipro or Mitsubishi hyper heat. I have a Gree Flexx at my house and it has never kicked on aux heat even in -9F ambient weather with -15 to -20 wind chill.

I assume this new demand rate is across the board, not exclusively a special treat for solar customers?

Now that I'm taking a closer look at the announcement it's full of issues, at least in my way of thinking.
Their list of "ways to reduce your electricity bill" hasn't been updated since the 90's.

They want to stick you (all of us eventually) for $3.75/kW but are offering suggestions like turn off your lights, unplug appliances and ADD a heat pump.

In other words two things that will do nothing for your demand then one thing that will just blow it up when the strips kick on.

They've got a nice graphic but it's missing both a heat pump and an EV charger.

Banjoman said:

Another thought is looking to upgrade the heat pump to a true cold weather rated heat pump like a Gree Multipro or Mitsubishi hyper heat. I have a Gree Flexx at my house and it has never kicked on aux heat even in -9F ambient weather with -15 to -20 wind chill.

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If I go with a new Air source heat pump I will for sure get one good into the negative temps.

OzSolar said:

I assume this new demand rate is across the board, not exclusively a special treat for solar customers?

Now that I'm taking a closer look at the announcement it's full of issues, at least in my way of thinking.
Their list of "ways to reduce your electricity bill" hasn't been updated since the 90's.

They want to stick you (all of us eventually) for $3.75/kW but are offering suggestions like turn off your lights, unplug appliances and ADD a heat pump.

In other words two things that will do nothing for your demand then one thing that will just blow it up when the strips kick on.

They've got a nice graphic but it's missing both a heat pump and an EV charger.


View attachment 196573

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Correct it is across the board at this point.. they had a Coop 101 meeting for members when they announced this so I went for info. I brought up that very complaint in regards to how they suggest people can help reduce their bills.. I brought up how my heat pump water heater can actually have a higher demand while using less kwh...

Skip the HPWH and do a cheap electric one as a preheater. Run it whenever you have excess solar.

zanydroid said:

Doesn't geothermal retain a decent COP at lower temp than A2A? That said, it feels like investing in a system to hand down to your grandkids...

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Sounds good on paper. 50 degree water year round, blah, blah. Two wells, source and return, turn them around every year. They don't hold up, systems are complicated, don't last as long in reality, not a hassle free system for sure. Never again.

ksmithaz1 said:

Sounds good on paper. 50 degree water year round, blah, blah. Two wells, source and return, turn them around every year. They don't hold up, systems are complicated, don't last as long in reality, not a hassle free system for sure. Never again.

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Hi ksmithaz1,
I am on year 13 on a closed loop setup. Happy with it. I'm guessing the open loop/steady stream of contaminates has something to do with your trouble.

ksmithaz1 said:

Sounds good on paper. 50 degree water year round, blah, blah. Two wells, source and return, turn them around every year. They don't hold up, systems are complicated, don't last as long in reality, not a hassle free system for sure. Never again.

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Properly designed and installed GSHP can do very well. I'm on year 13 with my closed loop. Only one issue was the fan motor in year 9 and that was covered under warranty.

The few bad stories I've heard have to do with pump and dump systems but I'm not saying that pump and dump systems are bad from a reliability standpoint. I do think they have the potential to be an environmental issue so I don't recommend them. Anytime you're messing with groundwater there's a chance to create a mess.

However if I was doing it today I would zone with individual mini splits. GSHP in my area starts at $30K for a 2 ton system last I heard. You can buy several top of line mini-splits for that sort of money.

SunDave said:

Hi ksmithaz1,
I am on year 13 on a closed loop setup. Happy with it. I'm guessing the open loop/steady stream of contaminates has something to do with your trouble.

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I mentioned my neighbor that has open loop in another thread and the problems associated with it.

Some members commented they run pump and dump and don't have problems. There is no way I'd run a pump and dump here, too much lime in the water.

OzSolar said:

Properly designed and installed GSHP can do very well. I'm on year 13 with my closed loop. Only one issue was the fan motor in year 9 and that was covered under warranty.

The few bad stories I've heard have to do with pump and dump systems.

However if I was doing it today I would zone with individual mini splits. GSHP in my area starts at $30K for a 2 ton system last I heard. You can buy several five top of line mini-splits for that sort of money.

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Around here where winter gets way below 0°F, it might be wise to use the air source with some type of auxiliary such as wood or gas. This is where ground source holds the advantage but if the cold spell lasts 3 weeks, it wouldn't make sense to spend $60K for a 4 ton GSHP. One can buy plenty of gas for that.

OzSolar said:

Properly designed and installed GSHP can do very well. I'm on year 13 with my closed loop. Only one issue was the fan motor in year 9 and that was covered under warranty.

The few bad stories I've heard have to do with pump and dump systems.

However if I was doing it today I would zone with individual mini splits. GSHP in my area starts at $30K for a 2 ton system last I heard. You can buy several five top of line mini-splits for that sort of money.

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This is the crux. The minute you put in 2 wells, you just created two points of failure. If you have easy access to a reasonable volume of good groundwater at multiple depths it can work, but when the rubber meets the road I never even remotely saw an ROI. Poor quality groundwater, like full of iron etc, plays hell with the systems, and now you are dealing with plumbing instead of just a condenser fan. Expensive with dubious benefit and more complexity does not a winner make. Like anything else, there are probably places it might make sense, but I will never have another one. IMNSHO the air2air has improved so much it's silly to consider unless you have an esoteric edge case.