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House burned down

D71 said:
Them saying it is “fuel type: lpg” was hilarious too. Crazy thing …. Hard to know what to trust as safe anymore. Most everything is accessed or unknown risk. We live in a technological risk and potential danger for everything. 🥸🤔 like reading side effect on medicines. Why labels are there.

It is a crazy world. Titanic ….. sub going to see the Titanic = Titan
Those recorded bangs which were just released were last thing the crew heard in a ms before it registered for the failure. Died near instant.
www.bbc.com

Titan sub: Bangs that led to hope of crew's survival heard for first time

Noises that prompted hope in the search for the missing Titan submersible have been released to the media.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com

The Navy reported hearing those bangs in 1 news article…. Long distance away.

I bet the pictured fire at OP’s place made some crazy noise. He thought it was all figured out too. Comfortable even convinced. The story of Titanic and Titan. Same same comfortable convinced. Reality is Dangerous controlled but then the smoke gets out..

Caveat Emptor.

Me am looking at these batteries. 🤔👀
View attachment 215413


But looking at these too.
View attachment 215414



Hmmm imagine that sitting in your living room. Looks like modern furnishings. 🤣 The EG4 battery has some kind of fire extinguisher built in their battery system Wonder what it is for that extinguisher?
HALON works well with fires but can kill everybody in closed room-space. Put out the fire but everyone dies because oxygen levels depleted. Win lose.
Click to expand...
This post has a link to what they use.

Post in thread 'EG4LL Fire Suppression Modules' https://diysolarforum.com/threads/eg4ll-fire-suppression-modules.68168/post-861835
 
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First of all, Halon doesn't work by depleting O2, it works by disrupting combustion.

I've specified Halotron before, but then learned the effective concentration is higher than the LD50.
Then I saw Ansul Clean-Guard used in another facility. Effective concentration is well below LD50.
I now have Clean-Guard in my home lab.

Instead of those architecturally attractive NEMA-1 batteries, I suggest a NEMA-3R model and use it as yard sculpture.
 
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D71 said:
Them saying it is “fuel type: lpg” was hilarious too. Crazy thing …. Hard to know what to trust as safe anymore. Most everything is accessed or unknown risk. We live in a technological risk and potential danger for everything. 🥸🤔 like reading side effect on medicines. Why labels are there.

It is a crazy world. Titanic ….. sub going to see the Titanic = Titan
Those recorded bangs which were just released were last thing the crew heard in a ms before it registered for the failure. Died near instant.
www.bbc.com

Titan sub: Bangs that led to hope of crew's survival heard for first time

Noises that prompted hope in the search for the missing Titan submersible have been released to the media.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com

The Navy reported hearing those bangs in 1 news article…. Long distance away.

I bet the pictured fire at OP’s place made some crazy noise. He thought it was all figured out too. Comfortable even convinced. The story of Titanic and Titan. Same same comfortable convinced. Reality is Dangerous controlled but then the smoke gets out..

Caveat Emptor.

Me am looking at these batteries. 🤔👀
View attachment 215413


But looking at these too.
View attachment 215414



Hmmm imagine that sitting in your living room. Looks like modern furnishings. 🤣 The EG4 battery has some kind of fire extinguisher built in their battery system Wonder what it is for that extinguisher?
HALON works well with fires but can kill everybody in closed room-space. Put out the fire but everyone dies because oxygen levels depleted. Win lose.
Click to expand...


5 rules -
Never trust the advertising on Amazon for anything unless it is a vendor/brand/type you have researched outside of amazon
Always do your own research, only listen to people you trust/respect and still at least do a little research.
If it is to good to be true it isn't
If it is to good a deal to pass up, it isn't
If it is to good to be true or to good to be true see the rules above.

And the US Navy has listening and detection grids all over the ocean floor. Tighter grid close in, but you can't fart near any major port without them hearing it... Now that is a job I would hate.
 
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robbob2112 said:
5 rules -
Never trust the advertising on Amazon for anything unless it is a vendor/brand/type you have researched outside of amazon
Always do your own research, only listen to people you trust/respect and still at least do a little research.
If it is to good to be true it isn't
If it is to good a deal to pass up, it isn't
If it is to good to be true or to good to be true see the rules above.

And the US Navy has listening and detection grids all over the ocean floor. Tighter grid close in, but you can't fart near any major port without them hearing it... Now that is a job I would hate.
Click to expand...
“And the US Navy has listening and detection grids all over the ocean floor. Tighter grid close in, but you can't fart near any major port without them hearing it... Now that is a job I would hate.”

I don’t hate to fart but most ppl hate when I do. 🤣
Good advice .
As a diy everyone on this forum takes on the responsibility. That is my point…. Caveat Emptor as previous explained.

Edit how many new ppl don’t know their responsibilities by diy
 
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D71 said:
“And the US Navy has listening and detection grids all over the ocean floor. Tighter grid close in, but you can't fart near any major port without them hearing it... Now that is a job I would hate.”

I don’t hate to fart but most ppl hate when I don’t. 🤣
Good advice .
As a diy everyone on this forum takes on the responsibility. That is my point…. Caveat Emptor as previous explained.
Click to expand...

One more rule, if the vendor name resembles the sound a stack of tin pans make when you knock it over they may be legit... but be very careful, they may be scamers
 
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D71 said:
LPG ; Soldering Iron
Click to expand...
The LPG could be a messed up auto-correct/translate for LPF.
The soldering iron could have a battery ignitor.

So many fakes out there now though on Amazon and friends that it just doesn't make sense to buy them though.
 
Hedges said:
First of all, Halon doesn't work by depleting O2, it works by disrupting combustion.

I've specified Halotron before, but then learned the effective concentration is higher than the LD50.
Then I saw Ansul Clean-Guard used in another facility. Effective concentration is well below LD50.
I now have Clean-Guard in my home lab.

Instead of those architecturally attractive NEMA-1 batteries, I suggest a NEMA-3R model and use it as yard sculpture.
Click to expand...
The Ansul Clean-Guard is new to me the Ansul is not. Most fires where ansul were used at rail roads was only for fun. Most were heated metals burning paints plastics oil and grease. Most effective was to cool the metal. That ansul made a damn mess that screwed up every locomotive - modules relay whatever it came in contact with. The crews were instructed to stop, shut engine down, pull knife switch for battery. Not tofight fire but they were shown how to do that too.

With aircraft have metal like magnesiums ….. hard to put out. The Airforce put halon on board aircraft Reports onboard fire but plane crashed. Halon system put fires out but killed crew so they crashed. Not sure how they resolved.

Water is an interesting mix if you separate and add to a fire
 
D71 said:
If you read that link it says do not touch first canisters as they will be hot after application. 🤡🤣 Crazy. Chemicals fighting chemicals - heat generated.
Click to expand...
Makes ya wonder how hot they get.
 
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Shimmy said:
The LPG could be a messed up auto-correct/translate for LPF.
The soldering iron could have a battery ignitor.

So many fakes out there now though on Amazon and friends that it just doesn't make sense to buy them though.
Click to expand...
It is typical in lot of advertising now. Illegal. But typical.

My butane soldering iron has no battery … 80watts power rated. My 3048 emergency system draws ~50-60 watts idling.

Caveat Emptor with everything…. Will Prowse warns ppl all during his videos. There is a reason Will warns ppl so many times…. Legal and he doesn’t want ppl hurt. Ppl need to get that part. He is warning you over and over. OVER.

One of the famous home builders - rebuilders on tv got hauled to court. His defense he was an actor not certified for anything.


A new person buying this for split phase might feel the lie when put into operation. Devil is in details.

IMG_6470.jpeg

I am an old guy. Take what you will. You most likely will never see me telling some one what to do or not do. What you or anyone on here does is on them.

Caveat Emptor. 🤣

When post it is usually for everyone ppl are at all levels here. The OP thought he had it down too.
 
dianea said:
The vaporized fuses used to be Littlefuse CCMR 15, rated "600 VAC or less " no DC rating at all. This was in my shop and happened during destructive FAFO testing of improper parts. The fuses were installed in a surplus three phase Allen Bradley 1492-FB3C30 fuse holder with indicators. It's indicators weren't needed this time to let me know the fuses had failed. This experiment may suggest using wrong fuses for the wrong application with no enclosure might cause infinite more harm than any good. And a reminder that rated enclosures are a good idea...
Click to expand...

I see your point, good info.

These fuses ? Still the wrong ones but it appears they do have a DC rating if that is them.
 

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_voltmeter_ said:
no you are not, i have myself mega fuses installed but rated for 70v
Click to expand...
Am I ok with the 58 volt fuses?
These say: 125A/58V for 48V
And in have 48v100ah Sungold Wall batteries, info it says:

Maximum cut-off voltage for charging 57.6

Recommended charging 54.5

I’ve never seen the voltage go over 55

Am I ok with these fuses?
 
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Lighthouse Beacon said:
Am I ok with the 58 volt fuses?
Click to expand...
Honestly, I had 5 of the 58V-rated ones (clear package) and I thought they were fine, until this House Burned Down thread.
The OP appeared to have them, so I upgraded to the 70v MEGA.
2.5 kA AIC at 70v (littelfuse sf51) is better than 1 kA AIC at 58v (littelfuse bf2)

I would never use MEGA for a battery, just for inverters and MPPTs.
 
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ricardocello said:
Honestly, I had 5 of the 58V-rated ones (clear package) and I thought they were fine, until this House Burned Down thread.
The OP appeared to have them, so I upgraded to the 70v MEGA.
2.5 kA AIC at 70v (littelfuse sf51) is better than 1 kA at 58v (littelfuse bf2)

I would never use MEGA for a battery, just for inverters and MPPTs.
Click to expand...
ricardocello said:
Honestly, I had 5 of the 58V-rated ones (clear package) and I thought they were fine, until this House Burned Down thread.
The OP appeared to have them, so I upgraded to the 70v MEGA.
2.5 kA AIC at 70v (littelfuse sf51) is better than 1 kA AIC at 58v (littelfuse bf2)

I would never use MEGA for a battery, just for inverters and MPPTs.
Click to expand...
I am still alittle confused by all this? You have the same ones I do? That’s what signature solar recommended for my victron buss. I am surprised they are selling them if they are bad. I called my friend who does solar and ask him and all he said was, “yes those are fine”. I just don’t know. I hate to have to tear all this out and rebuild with Class T Victron Buss, guess I will at some point.
Have to do that one day. I guess I am going to just go ahead and install these for now with a plan to upgrade. I am getting so much conflicting info it’s confusing
 
Lighthouse Beacon said:
I am still alittle confused by all this? You have the same ones I do? That’s what signature solar recommended for my victron buss. I am surprised they are selling them if they are bad.
Click to expand...
The 58V-rated ones are not bad, they meet the specifications Littelfuse or Victron publish.
I’m looking for extra protection, and willing to spend money for additional peace of mind.
The 70V rated fuses give me that.

The question isn’t will they work, because they will.
The question is, will they arc and catch fire in extreme cases?

Lighthouse Beacon said:
I called my friend who does solar and ask him and all he said was, “yes those are fine”. I just don’t know. I hate to have to tear all this out and rebuild with Class T Victron Buss, guess I will at some point.
Have to do that one day. I guess I am going to just go ahead and instally these. I am getting so much conflicting info it’s confusing
Click to expand...
When it comes to fuses, better to have something than nothing, for sure.
 
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ricardocello said:
The 58V-rated ones are not bad, they meet the specifications Littelfuse or Victron publish.
I’m looking for extra protection, and willing to spend money for additional peace of mind.

The question isn’t will they work, because they will.
The question is, will they arc and catch fire in extreme cases?


When it comes to fuses, better to have something than nothing, for sure.
Click to expand...

ricardocello said:
The 58V-rated ones are not bad, they meet the specifications Littelfuse or Victron publish.
Click to expand...
ricardocello said:
I’m looking for extra protection, and willing to spend money for additional peace of mind.
The 70V rated fuses give me that.

The question isn’t will they work, because they will.
The question is, will they arc and catch fire in extreme cases?


When it comes to fuses, better to have something than nothing, for sure.
Click to expand...
Thanks that makes sense. I will run this awhile with plans to upgrade to the class t victron buss
 
The major problem parallel fuses they give you about 2x the amp rating.
You stll need to fuse the inverter and (fuse -breaker charge controller on battery side if not an all in one inverter.)

Another Fuse or breaker needs to be here TOO. MOST MANUFACTURERS RECOMMEND IT..
IMG_6478.jpeg

This is the fuse used in a battery pack on alibaba
IMG_6489.jpeg

There are 4 things dislike about OP install. These lock nuts have been found to be huge no no for me by years of experience. My experience. Nylon type locking nuts when used in single application in electrical can lock down and seem tight but connection is not 100% tight. Best practice use washers and lock washers under regular nuts. We had to take time away from normal locomotive maintenance to replace fleet of locomotive terminal board lock nuts. They had also factory stacked the big leads between nuts. They had been failing left and right out on the rail pulling freight. Best practice don’t do it. Best- Don’t use single nylon lock nuts and do not stack with steel nut sandwich.

Not sure how this is actually stacked but no big leads should ever be stacked and sandwiched between other nuts. Steel gets hot not as conductive. Again years of experience. There are electrical spacers for sandwiching lugs. Best practice is avoid it. Again not 100% sure the big lead is sandwich.. signal wires small wires no basic draw might be alright - done it …. Thread engagement is important too. I hope there are washers under all nuts on right …they need to be bigger for clamp force. My opinion. My experience. Signal - or whatever small wire should been put with other small wires.
IMG_6492.jpeg

I watched a video… best part was guy saying “2x times a year go around check all connections” do inspections. Don’t remember who it was in video. Sage Advice. We have to have caution not fear. We learn everyday. Make a log book of your checks.

This is not 100% you either deal with it or accept something else as more safe. Sorry nothing is 100% safe. Storage engery is dangerous. The fuse might not have been the source of problems the OP reported fireman said. “That fireman could have been wrong”
Normally fuses don’t just pop. Normally. If not rated right get nuisance pops.
 
robbob2112 said:
Fiddle time limited - only time for pictures and a couple of measurements with the 1035

View attachment 214918


View attachment 214919

Turns out I do have a Mega fuse.


The Chints are HUGE compared to the Class T fuses but they have much higher AIC.
This is the link


This is the removal handle


Resistances in order

200a Chint - 0.35 mohm
300a Class T - 0.22 mohm
200a Class T - 0.88 mohm
125a Chint - 0.20 mohm
100a Mega - 0.50 mohm
200a Breaker - 1.48 mohm - brand is "Red Wolf" off amazon


All measurements taken with 4 wire leads on the ends of the actual fuse. I did measure some of the resistance on the mounts end to end with the fuse but didn't record the reading.

My plan is to run as many amps as I can put through them with a clamp meter to monitor and the 1035+ meter to measure the resistance and how it changes over time.

And if I can find a 3rd set of hands I'll also use the trusty Fluke to measure voltage drop across the fuses.


The 1035 is a mico-ohm meter that measures resistance with a 1kh sine wave verse the standard straight DC current measured by a voltage divider network.


I won't blow the Class T fuses, they are just to spendy, but I will blow the anl, mega, and chints to see how they work out.

I'll use a ceramic heater with fan and a heat gun as loads to blowthe fuses. I have a 2000w inverter and a 1200va victron and will probably have to put both on a bus bar to make it work. I do also have the victron smart shunt to measure the current as well and it should retain the graph as I turn things on.


Will draw up a diagram of what I am doing and post.


Also, I think after this post I will either put the results in a Resource or a separate post by itself.
Click to expand...


Got a new toy to measure temps with -- waiting on an arm to hold the thing steady on my work bench. Then I will test some fuse resistances before and while current is running through them.

The heatgun is the hot spot at the top, that is a MRBF fuse (3), the lug connected to the battery (1) , the victron temp sensor for the shunt (2).

Amazingly vivid.

flir.jpgvictron.jpg
 
robbob2112 said:
Got a new toy to measure temps with -- waiting on an arm to hold the thing steady on my work bench. Then I will test some fuse resistances before and while current is running through them.

The heatgun is the hot spot at the top, that is a MRBF fuse (3), the lug connected to the battery (1) , the victron temp sensor for the shunt (2).

Amazingly vivid.

View attachment 215579View attachment 215580
Click to expand...
Where did you get the new toy.
Few years back there were free phone apps. Last looked the apps were no longer there for free. The FLIR The actual thermal cameras use to be expensive….but prices have dropped. The laser temp readers use to be expensive too. FLIR app and Camera can be sync’ed with phones.
Not sure why they did away with free apps that used camera in phone. Maybe money or something else.

IMG_6493.png


IMG_6494.png

Next thing we know someone will - might invent a thermal camera monitor for these systems that send alerts via phone and or do emergency shut down. Hmmmm.
 
D71 said:
Where did you get the new toy.
Few years back there were free phone apps. Last looked the apps were no longer there for free. The FLIR The actual thermal cameras use to be expensive….but prices have dropped. The laser temp readers use to be expensive too. FLIR app and Camera can be sync’ed with phones.
Not sure why they did away with free apps that used camera in phone. Maybe money or something else.

View attachment 215583


View attachment 215584

Next thing we know someone will - might invent a thermal camera monitor for these systems that send alerts via phone and or do emergency shut down. Hmmmm.
Click to expand...

FLIR 1 pro - wanted the higher resolution and extra mode.


I just happen to have an old Galaxy A7 in a drawer so I can use it when testing things as the display.

Funny they still call it FLIR (Forward looking Infrared) - Seems like calling it a thermal camera might be more accurate these days. Especially with the color overlay verse the old black and white version.

My airplane had a FLIR turret - fly along and drop it out the belly and look around - had to be changed periodically when the liquid nitrogen inside leaked out. Back early 90's it was $250k a copy and my team replaced 1 of them 4 times. Good thing we had 8ft extender cables so we could hook the new one up in the aluminum can before install.

First 2 didn't work.... third one came with sea water sloshing around in the can and the 4th one worked.
 
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