The panel angle in those pictures looks good for summer. Bad for winter. I suspect they should be close to 18° from vertical for November.
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GSXR1000
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strange.. middle of a sunny day note the watts produced .. then add a load and see if it increases ( maybe the batteries aren't accepting charge)
GSXR1000
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still wouldn't explain only 10% output IMO
Hedges
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All facing the same direction, so that rules out a series connection of two differently oriented panels.
If heavy clouds and at a time of day when sun at an angle to panels, could explain the low charge current. See what happens middle of the day tomorrow if skies are clear.
Angle may not be optimum for winter, but it is an angle. You'll get a large fraction of peak winter power during middle of the day.
As GSXR1000 said, testing with a load on the inverter would show if current was available from charge controller, just not being accepted by the batteries. But in that case I think it would go higher than 11.9V
If heavy clouds and at a time of day when sun at an angle to panels, could explain the low charge current. See what happens middle of the day tomorrow if skies are clear.
Angle may not be optimum for winter, but it is an angle. You'll get a large fraction of peak winter power during middle of the day.
As GSXR1000 said, testing with a load on the inverter would show if current was available from charge controller, just not being accepted by the batteries. But in that case I think it would go higher than 11.9V
Agreed.
Tomorrow is cloudy with snow but sunny Thursday so will try to check right at noon. So just to try and understand this, let’s say it still says 100 watts in and I have the inverter on and then turn on the toaster or microwave, then the number of watts produced coming in would be higher???
Hedges
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If the battery accepts the current, charge controller will already be delivering all the watts that are available.
Turning on inverter and toaster would simply divert power to the inverter and start draining battery.
More common is when someone's battery is almost fully charged. They add more panels and ask, "Why don't I get any more watts?"
Lead acid batteries are first charged in "bulk" mode, all current available is delivered (or for some systems, the maximum programmed current is delivered.) Your charge controller indicates this mode.
Then, in "absorption" mode, a constant voltage. The battery only takes the current it wants, then tapers off. If you turn on the toaster during absorption, charge controller will deliver more power, more current, but voltage will remain the same. (so long as enough PV is available). Battery charge current will remain the same. Extra current from charge controller will go to inverter.
Finally, "float" mode, a lower constant voltage. Just enough to keep batteries from discharging. My 405 Ah 48V bank registers 0.1 kW at that point, exact value not certain because that is a single count of the display.
Turning on inverter and toaster would simply divert power to the inverter and start draining battery.
More common is when someone's battery is almost fully charged. They add more panels and ask, "Why don't I get any more watts?"
Lead acid batteries are first charged in "bulk" mode, all current available is delivered (or for some systems, the maximum programmed current is delivered.) Your charge controller indicates this mode.
Then, in "absorption" mode, a constant voltage. The battery only takes the current it wants, then tapers off. If you turn on the toaster during absorption, charge controller will deliver more power, more current, but voltage will remain the same. (so long as enough PV is available). Battery charge current will remain the same. Extra current from charge controller will go to inverter.
Finally, "float" mode, a lower constant voltage. Just enough to keep batteries from discharging. My 405 Ah 48V bank registers 0.1 kW at that point, exact value not certain because that is a single count of the display.
SolarQueen
Making renewable do-able at www.alteStore.com
I'm changing my answer, I think I needed a nap. Vmp is 32.9, Voc is 40.1. Five in series is fine with a Classic 250. Even at -40, you are just barely hitting 250V, in which case the Classic will protect itself. (40.1V x 5 x 1.25 = 253V). However, the output of the Classic 250 is 63A. If you have 3100W / 24V system, that's 129A output. Do you have 2 charge controllers, with 5 in series going to each one?
digitalsteve
New Member
Should you decide to charge with a 12 volt charger connected to your Yamaha generator, you should attach the + (positive) to any of the red dots and - (minus) to any of the black dots. You can pick the ones most convenient.
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Thanks digitalsteve. If the charger is hooked up as you indicate and plugged into generator to charge, does the inverter just need to be turned off or disconnected? And what about the charge controller? Does it have to be disconnected?
If I am not up there for 6 or 7 weeks, do you think there is any advantage to loading up the batteries and taking them home and storing in my heated garage at home? I was told by the guy I got them from that if they freeze it won’t damage them but not sure about it?
If I am not up there for 6 or 7 weeks, do you think there is any advantage to loading up the batteries and taking them home and storing in my heated garage at home? I was told by the guy I got them from that if they freeze it won’t damage them but not sure about it?
Your battery charger can be hooked up without unhooking anything else. For maximum charge, turn off the inverter.
Leaving batteries in the cold should only be done if they are fully charged. A battery low on charge can freeze, which is bad. If you aren't confident that the batteries are fully charged, I would take them home where you can charge them.
Leaving batteries in the cold should only be done if they are fully charged. A battery low on charge can freeze, which is bad. If you aren't confident that the batteries are fully charged, I would take them home where you can charge them.
digitalsteve
New Member
Couple of interesting items regarding the readings on the charge controller: The battery voltage is 11.9v. Since a gel cell at (11.8v =0% state of charge) and a 25% state of charge is12.0v, (50% will be at 12.3), so I am guessing you might have 10% charge at this point. Which is about what you would have charged in 10 hours at 8.6 amps charge rate. Adding a 50 amp charger to the mix, might get you to a full charge in 24 hours or so, but that is running your generator for the whole time.
As others have mentioned, you should be getting much higher charge rate from the panels. Even at 1/3 their rating, you would have 1000watts which is about 80 amps to the batteries. Make sure you don't have a tripped breaker of blown fuse in the combiner box.
digitalsteve
New Member
You could leave on the inverter, but the batteries would charge slower. From Google " While it is true that many AGM batteries are able to deliver a higher percentage of rated capacity at lower temperature, Gel batteries are quite capable at lower temperature and many are rated to operate at temperatures as low as -76°F (-60°C)" But it is best to check the specs for your batteries. The charge controller may help charge the batteries faster.
Hedges
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But he has a 12V system, so 3100W/12V = 258A.
With the one charge controller he can only get 1/4 of that, about 750W. Hopefully just due to a cloudy afternoon they were getting 100W
The batteries (400 Ah 6V connected 2s2p) would prefer 170A but allow a maximum of 250A
You really do need a nap!
More charge controllers would let him harvest more. Only so many ways to divide 10 panels evenly; maybe a different model charge controller could split it up better.
I'd like to re-orient panels to reduce the peak and increase the hours of good production, but the nice solid ground mount is already there.
With optimum multiple orientations, it would make the ideal 170A for several hours per day.
digitalsteve
New Member
But he has a 12V system, so 3100W/12V = 258A.
With the one charge controller he can only get 1/4 of that, about 750W. Hopefully just due to a cloudy afternoon they were getting 100W
The batteries (400 Ah 6V connected 2s2p) would prefer 170A but allow a maximum of 250A
You really do need a nap!
More charge controllers would let him harvest more. Only so many ways to divide 10 panels evenly; maybe a different model charge controller could split it up better.
I'd like to re-orient panels to reduce the peak and increase the hours of good production, but the nice solid ground mount is already there.
With optimum multiple orientations, it would make the ideal 170A for several hours per day.
Hedges
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4 batteries, each 400 Ah 6V is 10 kWh.
3000W array on a summer's day gets 5+ hours effective sun, 15 kWh
Winter's day if 2 hours effective sun, 6 kWh
If the system had enough charge controllers, it would recharge in 0.7 to 2.0 days.
Because the charge controller is limited to 63A, 800 Ah at 12V of battery is going to take 13 hours.
Usually we would consider equivalent full sun hours, but pulling only 750 or 850W from a 3000W array, it would get a few more hours full output.
Probably 2 days, a bit longer in the winter.
That's assuming it starts showing 750W, not 100W.
Now I'm the one who needed a nap.
digitalsteve
New Member
If he wires batteries in series (would require a 24v inverter) then he can get about 1500 watts out of the system. So, either a second MPPT or a new inverter, which ever costs less. Personally I would go for the 24v solution. Or parallel up to 3 more MPPTs and get the up to the full capacity of the panels using the existing inverter :>).
Steve_S
Offgrid Cabineer, N.E. Ontario, Canada
North Sask is big, no mention what city is closest. Using Saskatoon (Central Sask) these are the angles. March & September are the Median Months for a Fixed Ground Mount which for Saskatoon is 38 degrees as shown.
Midnite has this tool to figure out optimal arrangements/configurations for your panels and IT WORKS WELL you only have to put in your panel specs and play with the config to see what will produce the most according to your panels & controller. These people KNOW their products.
You DO NOT NEED ANOTHER SCC ! Seriously ! 3kw of panel to 12V battery with a MIdnite 250 come on... The only item in the entire setup that I would change is the Inverter which I'd b looking at the Samlex EVO-3012 which is infinitely programable configurable and has built in ATS & AGS which can signal an Atkinson GCSM (Generator Control Start Module) to auto-start a genset and more....
The EVO 3012 : Samlex America -- Products
BUT with that being said, if an Inverter Upgrade is to happen, then to be Honest, a 24V config would be far better especially down the line, usage always increases because we humans like to add things to our lives. Most here could easily admit that Setup #1 fell short and resulted in an upgrade... I started with a 3000W Inverter & ended up with 4000W, I am NOT unique in this... ALSO OF NOTE... The Samlex EVO's are 90-94% Efficient pending on model, unlike MANY others which are mid 80% and THAT makes a difference too.
SOURCE: Solar Angle Calculator | Solar Panel Angle Calculator (solarelectricityhandbook.com)
Midnite has this tool to figure out optimal arrangements/configurations for your panels and IT WORKS WELL you only have to put in your panel specs and play with the config to see what will produce the most according to your panels & controller. These people KNOW their products.
You DO NOT NEED ANOTHER SCC ! Seriously ! 3kw of panel to 12V battery with a MIdnite 250 come on... The only item in the entire setup that I would change is the Inverter which I'd b looking at the Samlex EVO-3012 which is infinitely programable configurable and has built in ATS & AGS which can signal an Atkinson GCSM (Generator Control Start Module) to auto-start a genset and more....
The EVO 3012 : Samlex America -- Products
BUT with that being said, if an Inverter Upgrade is to happen, then to be Honest, a 24V config would be far better especially down the line, usage always increases because we humans like to add things to our lives. Most here could easily admit that Setup #1 fell short and resulted in an upgrade... I started with a 3000W Inverter & ended up with 4000W, I am NOT unique in this... ALSO OF NOTE... The Samlex EVO's are 90-94% Efficient pending on model, unlike MANY others which are mid 80% and THAT makes a difference too.
SOURCE: Solar Angle Calculator | Solar Panel Angle Calculator (solarelectricityhandbook.com)
SolarQueen
Making renewable do-able at www.alteStore.com
I literally just woke up at 4:30 in the morning and said, wait, he has a 12V system! I can't go back to sleep until I wrote this. Thanks for catching it before I did. Yes, this is your problem. Don't let my sleepy previous answers cloud your judgement of me, this is very important. You are only getting 1/4 of your panel's power. You need to get this installer to fix your problem immediately. That much power into the charge controller will likely eventually damage it as well. Is there a combiner box near the solar array that would allow you to turn off one of the breakers, so it is only getting double its rated power? If not, you need to disconnect it completely once the batteries are charged back up. There should be breakers before and after the charge controller. The installer is 100% responsible for this and should not be allowed to get away with it.But he has a 12V system, so 3100W/12V = 258A.
With the one charge controller he can only get 1/4 of that, about 750W. Hopefully just due to a cloudy afternoon they were getting 100W
The batteries (400 Ah 6V connected 2s2p) would prefer 170A but allow a maximum of 250A
You really do need a nap!
More charge controllers would let him harvest more. Only so many ways to divide 10 panels evenly; maybe a different model charge controller could split it up better.
Possible solutions:
1. Rewire the batteries to be 24V, all 4 in series. This will require replacing the inverter with a 24V one. May be good opportunity to replace it with the EVO. You can then have 1 string of 5 into each of 2 charge controllers. A new set of PV wires would have to come back from the solar array.
2. Install 3 Classic 150 charge controllers with 96A output. I don't like this solution, but it would work. All of the PV wiring would have to change. Two with a string of 3 panels, one with a 2 strings of 2. This allows you to keep the battery bank at 12V and keep the inverter.
3. Get 4 more batteries and replace inverter with a 48V one. You can keep the solar array as is, one controller can handle it. (63A x 310W = 3024W array, 3100W is fine).
4. Disconnect 7 of the 10 panels and live with 930W instead of 3100W.
I'm sorry I didn't catch this earlier, I'm slipping. Now I'm going back to bed.
P.S. If your installer fights back and says we are wrong, send him to Midnite Solar's online calculator and he will see we are right. https://www.midnitesolar.com/sizingTool/index.php
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SolarQueen
Making renewable do-able at www.alteStore.com
You are 100% wrong. The charge controller is rated by the output, the Classic 250 is rated at 63A out. If it was a 48V system, one controller could handle it. 3100W / 48V = 64A out. Fine. At 12V, it is 3100W / 12V = 258A out. Do you think a 63A charge controller is OK for that? I don't. Neither does Midnite.
This has been such a great thread to follow.
I was going to ask Steve why he though another scc wasn’t necessary, but you’ve answer that for me solar queen.
I’m voting for going 24v and a new inverter. It really seems like the installer missed some basics here. Send him an email with a link to this thread
I was going to ask Steve why he though another scc wasn’t necessary, but you’ve answer that for me solar queen.
I’m voting for going 24v and a new inverter. It really seems like the installer missed some basics here. Send him an email with a link to this thread
Steve_S
Offgrid Cabineer, N.E. Ontario, Canada
With that Midnite Tool you can play with the string sizing (# of panels) and number of strings which allows you to play with the numbers to maximize what you can produce for your setup. I personally do not believe in using 12V beyond a 2000W Inverter, there's just too much involved to make it work well for a long duration. What about 4 panels & 3 strings ? or 4 strings of 2 panels ? I didn't bother playing with it...
Also remember, he is in Canada like I am and everything costs a HEAP MORE up here !
Even when you look at a price on Amazon.COM and the exact same product on Aamazon.CA comes out to a higher price all in when converted to USD. It is actually, more often not cheaper to buy from the COM and pay the extra shipping etc to get it up here. I just bought a Regulated powersupply from COM to save $120 (after conversion to USD).
Sorry but most in the USA don't get that nor can appreciate it when suggesting things.
Also remember, he is in Canada like I am and everything costs a HEAP MORE up here !
Even when you look at a price on Amazon.COM and the exact same product on Aamazon.CA comes out to a higher price all in when converted to USD. It is actually, more often not cheaper to buy from the COM and pay the extra shipping etc to get it up here. I just bought a Regulated powersupply from COM to save $120 (after conversion to USD).
Sorry but most in the USA don't get that nor can appreciate it when suggesting things.
SolarQueen
Making renewable do-able at www.alteStore.com
Watts is watts, regardless how things are wired. 10 strings of 1 or 1 string of 10 are still 3100W. It makes absolutely no difference to the number of charge controllers needed. Cost has nothing to do with it. According to Midnite, he is limited to 878W of solar on one Classic 250, regardless how it is wired, or how much it costs. He has 3100W. It will take more equipment to use the whole array, which option he chooses determines what equipment. The only option that does not require buying equipment is disconnecting 7 of his 10 panels.
Thanks so much for everyone’s input and suggestions- I really appreciate it!
But if I am being honest, I think I am more confused now than when I started. Lol.
Like I mentioned at the beginning I understand very little of the technical aspects.
I bought the solar from a local company and had a friend of mine install it who is an electrician based on the attached diagram from the guy who sold it to me. From what I gather it sounds like as it currently sits my system is limited to only 878 Watts, or just 3 panels. Disappointing for sure!
As Steve mentioned everything is much more expensive up here in Canada as it’s not as readily available.
So here is my new challenge for all of you very knowledgeable people....how can I get more use out of this system while putting out the least amount of money? Hook batteries up in series and try to exchange current inverter for a 24v one? Not even sure I would be able to do this? And buy another charge controller?
But if I am being honest, I think I am more confused now than when I started. Lol.
Like I mentioned at the beginning I understand very little of the technical aspects.
I bought the solar from a local company and had a friend of mine install it who is an electrician based on the attached diagram from the guy who sold it to me. From what I gather it sounds like as it currently sits my system is limited to only 878 Watts, or just 3 panels. Disappointing for sure!
As Steve mentioned everything is much more expensive up here in Canada as it’s not as readily available.
So here is my new challenge for all of you very knowledgeable people....how can I get more use out of this system while putting out the least amount of money? Hook batteries up in series and try to exchange current inverter for a 24v one? Not even sure I would be able to do this? And buy another charge controller?
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