The ongoing world events have me finally getting off my butt and wanting to install a backup system. My money, like many, is limited and I will have to purchase the inverter, batteries, and panels in 3 steps. With the prices skyrocketing and shipping going through the roof on this gear what pieces of equipment would you purchase first considering the circumstances?. What will be easier/ harder to get in time?. ThankYou.
In what order should I purchase equipment
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Rednecktek
Solar Wizard
Well, I'll start the default answer to these questions and we can work from there. Here's you To-Do list:
1: Power audit! This will give you some important information on how big your inverter needs to be as well as how much battery capacity you'll need. There is a link in the FAQ section (I think, or someone here will post it shortly) so fill in the blanks and see what it comes up with. You'll probably need some sort of Kill-A-Watt to get accurate measurements. Are you going to be running a 12v system? 24v system? 48v system? What are the specs on your solar panels? VoC? Vmp? Being as this is a new build, throw together a wish list of what you want and estimate on the high side.
1a: Where do you live? Speccing out a system for Scotland is a LOT different numbers than Arizona due to the amount of light you actually get. Someone here can post the link to the PVwatts.com or JCR Solar Uber-Sun-Hours calculator sites to help figure out how much you'll have to work with. That will be a box in the Power Audit form.
2: Parts list: You don't need a make & model list, just a parts list to start from for reference. You'll need an inverter, a MPPT charge controller, fuses, shunt, buck converter, batteries, wire, etc. Once you have a basic list it can be fine tuned to make & models after that. If you're looking at the All-In-Ones check for correct voltage outputs (120v or 240v Split Phase for North America, 220v Single Phase for European type areas) and make sure it has enough capacity for a little bit of growth and fudge factor.
3: Budget!: Steak is great but doesn't mean anything if your wallet says hamburger.
Figure out what you're able to spend now vs what you'll have to cheap out on now and upgrade later.
4: Tape measure! Figure out where you're going to stick all the stuff you'll need. A dozen 3000AH batteries sounds great until you're sleeping on the floor because there's no room left for a bed. Is there a compartment that can house all this stuff? Will the server rack batteries fit? Are you going to have to make space? Physics can be pretty unforgiving.
5: Pencil out what you think you need and throw it at us so we can tell you what you've missed (because we ALL miss stuff the first go-round ) and help figure out which parts and pieces you're going to want to get.
Having said all that, once you decide what you're going to do you really need to have at least the panels, controller, and battery to function. That at least will let you charge cell phones and run the internet. The inverter comes next to give you AC power that's actually useful for appliances and other things. There are places you can cheap out now and upgrade later, but it's like trying to build a bike and deciding if you want the frame, tires, or pedals first. You really need all the pieces to get started and you can clip in a playing card later.
1: Power audit! This will give you some important information on how big your inverter needs to be as well as how much battery capacity you'll need. There is a link in the FAQ section (I think, or someone here will post it shortly) so fill in the blanks and see what it comes up with. You'll probably need some sort of Kill-A-Watt to get accurate measurements. Are you going to be running a 12v system? 24v system? 48v system? What are the specs on your solar panels? VoC? Vmp? Being as this is a new build, throw together a wish list of what you want and estimate on the high side.
1a: Where do you live? Speccing out a system for Scotland is a LOT different numbers than Arizona due to the amount of light you actually get. Someone here can post the link to the PVwatts.com or JCR Solar Uber-Sun-Hours calculator sites to help figure out how much you'll have to work with. That will be a box in the Power Audit form.
2: Parts list: You don't need a make & model list, just a parts list to start from for reference. You'll need an inverter, a MPPT charge controller, fuses, shunt, buck converter, batteries, wire, etc. Once you have a basic list it can be fine tuned to make & models after that. If you're looking at the All-In-Ones check for correct voltage outputs (120v or 240v Split Phase for North America, 220v Single Phase for European type areas) and make sure it has enough capacity for a little bit of growth and fudge factor.
3: Budget!: Steak is great but doesn't mean anything if your wallet says hamburger.
Figure out what you're able to spend now vs what you'll have to cheap out on now and upgrade later.4: Tape measure! Figure out where you're going to stick all the stuff you'll need. A dozen 3000AH batteries sounds great until you're sleeping on the floor because there's no room left for a bed. Is there a compartment that can house all this stuff? Will the server rack batteries fit? Are you going to have to make space? Physics can be pretty unforgiving.
5: Pencil out what you think you need and throw it at us so we can tell you what you've missed (because we ALL miss stuff the first go-round
) and help figure out which parts and pieces you're going to want to get.Having said all that, once you decide what you're going to do you really need to have at least the panels, controller, and battery to function. That at least will let you charge cell phones and run the internet. The inverter comes next to give you AC power that's actually useful for appliances and other things. There are places you can cheap out now and upgrade later, but it's like trying to build a bike and deciding if you want the frame, tires, or pedals first. You really need all the pieces to get started and you can clip in a playing card later.
MichaelK
Solar Wizard
Buy your electronics online, delivered by mail. Shop for panels locally, with local pickup from venues like Craigslist. Buy your batteries from a local retailer with curbside pickup. The electronics are essential, and you should start with that. Then buy the batteries, along with a minimal number of panels. Add panels as money permits. You may add additional batteries later, but please note that adding new lead-acid batteries to a bank older than ~12 months is generally not a good idea.
As RNT outlines, determine the loads you want to run, design your ultimate system, then we can figure out the best way to do things somewhat piecemeal.
As RNT outlines, determine the loads you want to run, design your ultimate system, then we can figure out the best way to do things somewhat piecemeal.
Rednecktek
Solar Wizard
This! If you're going to have to do it in stages (and there are quite a few threads on doing solar on a budget) then plan on only having to replace the cheapest things in the system, like batteries or panels. Inverters, fuses, wire... those are places that you should NEVER cheap out on.
Fuses are cheaper than fires and pure sine inverters are cheaper than replacing appliances.
Your batteries can be cheap Wally World FLA's and replaced later with LiFe's or larger/better batteries. If they only hold you over until you can afford to replace them, they've done their job. SCC's can also be another place to save money. No sense paying up front for a Victron when a MakeBlueSky/PowMr will still turn panel DC volts into Battery DC volts. You can upgrade to a better quality SCC later when you need the extra capacity or features.
Either way the FIRST thing you should buy is a pencil and pad of paper so you can do your power audit and rough plan ahead of time.
Thanks for the quick replies. My daily use in kWh is averaging 65-70 with about 2052 per month as of Feb. I have plenty of space to mount the gear and I live in southern Maryland zip 20617. I was looking at 12 or 16 Santan panels@250w simply because of lower shipping costs, still $400. shipping alone for 12 panels. I cannot find local panels, for pickup so far.
Lv5648 MPPx2 possibly but they are going up daily I see today. Maybe a single low-frequency Growatt would be better.
Two rack-mount 48v batteries to start seems to be the biggest hit with shipping. I am curious what you would purchase first in case shipping/ suppliers, Taiwan, and China dry up first because of current events. I don't expect to power the whole home, just the basics, I have propane backup heat and mini-splits but the 1.5 hp deep well pump on a 30 A breaker will be a must.
Lv5648 MPPx2 possibly but they are going up daily I see today. Maybe a single low-frequency Growatt would be better.
Two rack-mount 48v batteries to start seems to be the biggest hit with shipping. I am curious what you would purchase first in case shipping/ suppliers, Taiwan, and China dry up first because of current events. I don't expect to power the whole home, just the basics, I have propane backup heat and mini-splits but the 1.5 hp deep well pump on a 30 A breaker will be a must.
For a backup system I would go with the panels last. Initially the battery can be charged from the grid and drive the inverter during an outage. Panels would come later to extend run time.
Initially I would plan for a battery that can serve restricted use for 24 to 48 hours. First step might be a smaller battery for 12 hours use.
My perspective is an RV implementation, so I would have recommended a very different sequence than what @time2roll posted. But if this is a home system, what he wrote is a good plan.
I'm thinking along the same lines. The supply of panels is stateside so availability should hold for some time. 48-volt batteries are imported as are the inverters.
Just be sure to run the numbers and be realistic about what you're doing, and realize what it's capable of. Your power usage is really high to try to replace it with solar. If you're just looking to have some emergency power to run your lights and fridge, you're good, but realize that even 16 of those panels is going to produce about 1/5 of your current consumption on a good day.
Don't forget a transfer switch on the house, to allow you to pick out certain priority circuits and connect them to the solar output while safely isolating them from the grid, as required by law and common sense. Reliance makes some great, affordable kits that are simple to install.
Don't forget a transfer switch on the house, to allow you to pick out certain priority circuits and connect them to the solar output while safely isolating them from the grid, as required by law and common sense. Reliance makes some great, affordable kits that are simple to install.
With developing your plan.. consider if you’re trying to live like there’s no outage or are you trying to just get by with the bare necessities? It might make a difference in the parts.
I’m looking at a similar setup. I’ve decided to go basics then grow it towards like no outage. I have a small propane generator, 1kw. Can run my fridge or freezer to preserve the food in them. I have 3 of the 20# tanks, I’m good for a decent amount of time. I waiting for an EB 240 (renewed) to arrive tomorrow to cover the fridge or freezer overnight. I can recharge it during the day off the small generator as well. next will be either a bigger generator (my preference right now) or a couple solar panels to charge the EB240 on its own. Hope it gives some food for thought.
I’m looking at a similar setup. I’ve decided to go basics then grow it towards like no outage. I have a small propane generator, 1kw. Can run my fridge or freezer to preserve the food in them. I have 3 of the 20# tanks, I’m good for a decent amount of time. I waiting for an EB 240 (renewed) to arrive tomorrow to cover the fridge or freezer overnight. I can recharge it during the day off the small generator as well. next will be either a bigger generator (my preference right now) or a couple solar panels to charge the EB240 on its own. Hope it gives some food for thought.
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Thanks for the advice. I do have an xfer panel installed from about 8 years ago that is a gen ready panel that I use for running my portable 12K propane generator. I use it in manual xfer mode with my portable gens. I will connect the inverter to that panel input which is 100A.input. Inverters will output 50A per leg at best. I know 16 panels, especially at 250 watt peak each is not nearly enough but I only intend to power the extended basics of the home but to include the well pump. https://www.northerntool.com/shop/t...&utm_source=Google_PLA&utm_medium=Generators >%20Generator%20Accessories%20>%20Generator%20Power%20Distribution&utm_campaign=Generac&utm_content=165888&gclid=Cj0KCQiA64GRBhCZARIsAHOLriKTZBH_DuX5-4E6Zdl7zDzYR36az3R_bGVf_OCilR8XJXiUN1IhOeUaAkApEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
EB240, nice.
Prefersdirt
Solar Enthusiast
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2019
- Messages
- 377
Energy Audit!
Figure out what is on the MUST HAVE list. Mine was "Freezer". then Fridge. Then whatever else. I can't power my house with my system. But I can keep food secured for several days. longer if the sun cooperates.
Then figure out your budget.
THEN you are ready to start asking more questions.
Shoot, I am trying to find used FLAs for additional projects where I cannot justify Lithium.
Many can design a system to replace 60kW per day (I started to when I thought we were moving as that is our average daily use). My wallet ran scared when I just looked at batteries (3 days worth of storage). And I do DIY batteries!
Figure out what is on the MUST HAVE list. Mine was "Freezer". then Fridge. Then whatever else. I can't power my house with my system. But I can keep food secured for several days. longer if the sun cooperates.
Then figure out your budget.
THEN you are ready to start asking more questions.
Shoot, I am trying to find used FLAs for additional projects where I cannot justify Lithium.
Many can design a system to replace 60kW per day (I started to when I thought we were moving as that is our average daily use). My wallet ran scared when I just looked at batteries (3 days worth of storage). And I do DIY batteries!
Looking at the chart on here linked from smooth joey these are my must-haves to power during an extended think emp outage
1. Well pump 1400
2. Two refrigerators 700x2
3. Small freezer 500
4. Back up mini split 1000
5. Microwave 1000
6. Led lighting 300
7. Led tv 400
8. Modem if service available 100
9. Desktop computer 800
10. Simply Safe system 200
11. Furnace fan 800
12. Pick the largest surge, well pump @2400
Approx 10,300 including surge.
They are coming out with new 120V hybrid water heaters soon, will look into those as well. The above numbers do not include hot water although can selectively run appliances.
1. Well pump 1400
2. Two refrigerators 700x2
3. Small freezer 500
4. Back up mini split 1000
5. Microwave 1000
6. Led lighting 300
7. Led tv 400
8. Modem if service available 100
9. Desktop computer 800
10. Simply Safe system 200
11. Furnace fan 800
12. Pick the largest surge, well pump @2400
Approx 10,300 including surge.
They are coming out with new 120V hybrid water heaters soon, will look into those as well. The above numbers do not include hot water although can selectively run appliances.
MichaelK
Solar Wizard
From experience, I'd say that your power estimations are significatanly lower then what I've seen in the real-world. Let's start with your well pump. I have a 1hp pump, and my real-world measurements match this chart closely. For my 3-wire Grounfos pump I read 9.5A/38A for running/starting. Your estimation of 1400W running, and 2400W starting for a 1.5hp pump are totally unrealistic. I'll write in my numbers below in what I've measured my equivelent appliances consuming.
1. Well pump 1400 (2780W)
2. Two refrigerators 700x2 (1200W X 2, or 2400W)
3. Small freezer 500 (about right, mine is 600)
4. Back up mini split 1000 (don't have one)
5. Microwave 1000 (about right)
6. Led lighting 300 (100W)
7. Led tv 400 (100W)
8. Modem if service available 100
9. Desktop computer 800
10. Simply Safe system 200
11. Furnace fan 800
12. Pick the largest surge, well pump @2400 (I'd say yours is ~11,000W. Mine is 9120W)
Approx 10,300 including surge.
16 250W panels is less than what I started with, and I've expanded my system twice. I find on water pumping days, I consume about 20-22 kWh of power. Regular days, I don't expect to consume more than 4kWh. If you are conservation minded, and not pumping water, I'd expect your system as designed to work for you on average days. But with your high power needs, I'd say that is where it is going to falter.
1. Well pump 1400 (2780W)
2. Two refrigerators 700x2 (1200W X 2, or 2400W)
3. Small freezer 500 (about right, mine is 600)
4. Back up mini split 1000 (don't have one)
5. Microwave 1000 (about right)
6. Led lighting 300 (100W)
7. Led tv 400 (100W)
8. Modem if service available 100
9. Desktop computer 800
10. Simply Safe system 200
11. Furnace fan 800
12. Pick the largest surge, well pump @2400 (I'd say yours is ~11,000W. Mine is 9120W)
Approx 10,300 including surge.
16 250W panels is less than what I started with, and I've expanded my system twice. I find on water pumping days, I consume about 20-22 kWh of power. Regular days, I don't expect to consume more than 4kWh. If you are conservation minded, and not pumping water, I'd expect your system as designed to work for you on average days. But with your high power needs, I'd say that is where it is going to falter.
timselectric
If I can do it, you can do it.
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2022
- Messages
- 19,792
1. Inverter (this is the most complicated installation and gets everything ready for the rest of the system)
2. Solar ( so that you can start seeing a return on investment)
3. Batteries (then you see more return on investment and finally freedom)
2. Solar ( so that you can start seeing a return on investment)
3. Batteries (then you see more return on investment and finally freedom)
MichaelK
Solar Wizard
Take a look at Schneider's 6848 and Outback's Radian 8048. Both high quality low-frequency transformer based inverters.
MisterSandals
Participation Medalist
If these are plugged in when an EMP hits, they will be toast.
I'll check them out, thanks.
Bossrox
Solar tinkerer
You can't have a functional system til all the pieces are together so my advice would be to grab any of the parts if you can find goods deals on 1st & save the other items til last.
Yes. I'll start with the inverter then batteries.
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TorC
Solar Enthusiast
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2022
- Messages
- 514
With the generator you have, inverter and batteries are essential, and a good inverter will let you run your generator at peak efficiency when it runs. Then expand panels as you can. That will be your long-term outage power supply, and you can try to minimize generator use to stretch your propane supply.
Figure cloudy day with MPPT is still going to be 1/3 of your sunny day output - and for off-grid that's the number that matters more. If you've got AC, you probably care less about it on a cloudy day, which is a good thing.
Figure cloudy day with MPPT is still going to be 1/3 of your sunny day output - and for off-grid that's the number that matters more. If you've got AC, you probably care less about it on a cloudy day, which is a good thing.
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