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Schneider xw pro 6848 not powering up with eg4 lithium battery

GXMnow said:
I'm totally done here and ignoring this thread. I DID read through a huge number of the posts, and no one was trying what I suggested. Or at least they never posted results of the tests. Is there a chance I missed one? sure. But instead of saying they did it and reposting the results of trying something, I get grief and complaints.

Bye.
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Extrenal Pre Charging was mentioned a number of times in this thread but I am certainly not going back to look for it.
 
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I guess I'm just saying is we did work hard, and are still working to find out a solution. Like I said before, when we have batteries that work with 99.95% of inverters out of the box, and work with 99% of the exact same inverter model that is being reported, it's hard for us to find the problem. I'm not sure about the legalities, as I said earlier, I'm not a lawyer and not making that argument in either direction -- Yes, I wanted to go to his property to see this, to do tests etc. But I am also not going to jeopardize myself or our company in any possible litigation. I'll look into if we increased the pre-charge amperage (I recall doing something similar but not sure the exact test off the top of my head) and will report back if I find something.
 
RichardfromSignatureSolar said:
I guess I'm just saying is we did work hard, and are still working to find out a solution. Like I said before, when we have batteries that work with 99.95% of inverters out of the box, and work with 99% of the exact same inverter model that is being reported, it's hard for us to find the problem. I'm not sure about the legalities, as I said earlier, I'm not a lawyer and not making that argument in either direction -- Yes, I wanted to go to his property to see this, to do tests etc. But I am also not going to jeopardize myself or our company in any possible litigation. I'll look into if we increased the pre-charge amperage (I recall doing something similar but not sure the exact test off the top of my head) and will report back if I find something.
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You did work hard and it is appreciated, I just wish your boss had made life easier for you.
I am not sure how your going to increase the amperage since that is already set by the charging resistor.
You could try to get them to modify the Firmware to change the charge time maximum to 20 seconds.
 
@RichardfromSignatureSolar I've already suggested this, but you asked again.

1. Have you checked the differences between the parameters in the EG4 LifePower4 and EG4 LL batteries. One works "LL" and one doesn't "LifePower4". Any difference would be suspect, especially in the pre-charge settings and timers.

2. Have you got the firmware to update in the LifePower4 batteries yet so you can adjust parameters? LOWERING the pre-charge timer would I think be desirable for this issue, You need full power to the inverters sooner, as they are going thru a power up process as soon as power is applied. SHORT pre-charge of caps and then full power..
 
In my line of work I am required to have liability insurance that covers things I may damage while on site as well as completed operation for as long as the equipment is operational ( maybe 50 years). I would think adding on site to their completed options would be cheaper and more effective than buying 40 inverters. Put boots on the ground and figure it out.
I was a technical service advisor for carrier through a distributor for several years. Some things just can’t be fixed on the phone.
 
The insurance agent probably rates them for warehouse distribution, and if they start touching client installations, they would have to move to a form of installer coverage instead.
It can dramatically change your rates.
We had a low voltage integration business, and looked at adding residential electrical service as well as security (think alarm) to our offerings.
The electrical service would have added a huge overhead in the form of the coverage changes but the life/safety stuff was a killer, it was somewhere in the area of 4x our previous rates.
It also changed the requirements for everything else since it essentially reclassified us in the eyes of OSHA, Workers Comp, etc.
We dropped that both plans after a lot of modeling, it just wasn't worth the risk and capital to add those business lines.
There are some things you'd like to do, that just can't be done under certain coverages and classifications.
 
Mr-Sandman said:
@RichardfromSignatureSolar I've already suggested this, but you asked again.

1. Have you checked the differences between the parameters in the EG4 LifePower4 and EG4 LL batteries. One works "LL" and one doesn't "LifePower4". Any difference would be suspect, especially in the pre-charge settings and timers.

2. Have you got the firmware to update in the LifePower4 batteries yet so you can adjust parameters? LOWERING the pre-charge timer would I think be desirable for this issue, You need full power to the inverters sooner, as they are going thru a power up process as soon as power is applied. SHORT pre-charge of caps and then full power..
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They have completely different manufacturers and BMS PCBs, different programming, etc - so basically they are different batteries completely. No real way of comparing them apples to apples currently. The settings for the 2 can be set to be identical (which is 100% a test we have done). When I tested adjusting the battery BMS settings after he dropped them off, I had no issues making changes. I don't know what was different from when I was remoted in to when they were dropped off, but there were no issues.
jberger said:
The insurance agent probably rates them for warehouse distribution, and if they start touching client installations, they would have to move to a form of installer coverage instead.
It can dramatically change your rates.
We had a low voltage integration business, and looked at adding residential electrical service as well as security (think alarm) to our offerings.
The electrical service would have added a huge overhead in the form of the coverage changes but the life/safety stuff was a killer, it was somewhere in the area of 4x our previous rates.
It also changed the requirements for everything else since it essentially reclassified us in the eyes of OSHA, Workers Comp, etc.
We dropped that both plans after a lot of modeling, it just wasn't worth the risk and capital to add those business lines.
There are some things you'd like to do, that just can't be done under certain coverages and classifications.
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I'm sure this is what the insurance was running into but again, not an insurance agent, not a lawyer, and I'm just going to stick to what they tell me I can do. I was told we cannot go onto a customers property or do anything on site. "Sir, yes sir" to the insurance/legal man and onto the next thing for me.
 
RichardfromSignatureSolar said:
The settings for the 2 can be set to be identical (which is 100% a test we have done).
Click to expand...

The two batteries may have different precharge resistor value. Try scaling precharge times differently in settings to compensate.
Have you used a scope to capture voltage at inverter, see what the RC time constant is and how close it comes to battery voltage? If it settles to a level below battery voltage due to DC current draw from inverter, or drops back down when load is applied.

RichardfromSignatureSolar said:
I'm sure this is what the insurance was running into but again, not an insurance agent, not a lawyer, and I'm just going to stick to what they tell me I can do. I was told we cannot go onto a customers property or do anything on site. "Sir, yes sir" to the insurance/legal man and onto the next thing for me.
Click to expand...

Is it possible they would let you go onto a customer's property if you don't do anything on site, just "observe and report"?
A sales person could go to a customer's door, maybe come inside for a glass of water. He could hand over a sample.
Obviously turning a screw or flipping a switch is different. If a licensed (possibly insured) installer put in a replacement battery or tried to debug the problem, you could learn from what you see.

Companies of course usually have insurance to protect themselves from liability. In California, contractors aren't required to have insurance (except Worker's Compensation if they have employees.) They must certify they have "working capital" of at least $2000 (I suppose that was a big number when the rule was made), and a bond that is now $12,000.

One of the Net Metering x.x versions was going to require solar installers to carry $1 million insurance, and $1 million insurance on the horse they rode in on (vehicle insurance). Too many special interests getting their fingers on "all" the money that is made from PV. (Required automobile insurance in the state is/was $15,000 per person, $30,000 per accident, $5000 property damage. That would have been increased to $1,000,000 on the car driven to the job.)
 
Hedges said:
The two batteries may have different precharge resistor value. Try scaling precharge times differently in settings to compensate.
Have you used a scope to capture voltage at inverter, see what the RC time constant is and how close it comes to battery voltage? If it settles to a level below battery voltage due to DC current draw from inverter, or drops back down when load is applied.



Is it possible they would let you go onto a customer's property if you don't do anything on site, just "observe and report"?
A sales person could go to a customer's door, maybe come inside for a glass of water. He could hand over a sample.
Obviously turning a screw or flipping a switch is different. If a licensed (possibly insured) installer put in a replacement battery or tried to debug the problem, you could learn from what you see.

Companies of course usually have insurance to protect themselves from liability. In California, contractors aren't required to have insurance (except Worker's Compensation if they have employees.) They must certify they have "working capital" of at least $2000 (I suppose that was a big number when the rule was made), and a bond that is now $12,000.

One of the Net Metering x.x versions was going to require solar installers to carry $1 million insurance, and $1 million insurance on the horse they rode in on (vehicle insurance). Too many special interests getting their fingers on "all" the money that is made from PV. (Required automobile insurance in the state is/was $15,000 per person, $30,000 per accident, $5000 property damage. That would have been increased to $1,000,000 on the car driven to the job.)
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I'll rerun precharge timings on both batteries. Not sure if I have the tools (clarify: they likely do have I just don't know what tool off the top of my head) but I'll see if we can duplicate. Will post if we can.
 
Hedges said:
The two batteries may have different precharge resistor value. Try scaling precharge times differently in settings to compensate.
Have you used a scope to capture voltage at inverter, see what the RC time constant is and how close it comes to battery voltage? If it settles to a level below battery voltage due to DC current draw from inverter, or drops back down when load is applied.



Is it possible they would let you go onto a customer's property if you don't do anything on site, just "observe and report"?
A sales person could go to a customer's door, maybe come inside for a glass of water. He could hand over a sample.
Obviously turning a screw or flipping a switch is different. If a licensed (possibly insured) installer put in a replacement battery or tried to debug the problem, you could learn from what you see.

Companies of course usually have insurance to protect themselves from liability. In California, contractors aren't required to have insurance (except Worker's Compensation if they have employees.) They must certify they have "working capital" of at least $2000 (I suppose that was a big number when the rule was made), and a bond that is now $12,000.

One of the Net Metering x.x versions was going to require solar installers to carry $1 million insurance, and $1 million insurance on the horse they rode in on (vehicle insurance). Too many special interests getting their fingers on "all" the money that is made from PV. (Required automobile insurance in the state is/was $15,000 per person, $30,000 per accident, $5000 property damage. That would have been increased to $1,000,000 on the car driven to the job.)
Click to expand...
All they need is a Certified Installer on the Payroll, even if he's not a full time person.
Go into any store that sells specific product lines and there is always a staff member that is Technically trained in the Installation and Use of the products.
 
GXMnow said:
I do agree, if I had been the tech with a site having a problem just 45 minutes away, I would have gone right away to figure out what was going on. But my company also had to have a million dollar liability insurance policy back in the 90's. I am no longer self employed, so that is no longer my problem.

I am not trying to say SS did nothing wrong. I am only trying to help get to the bottom of the issues. My thinking is to want to work the problem, and not worry about the background of how it got here or who did what wrong and where. Pointing fingers and complaining is not fixing the problem. I work on the problem to find the fault. That is who I am and what I do. I came in in the middle of the discussion when the thread got flagged since I also have a Schneider XW-Pro 6848 inverter. I did not read every post. I only personally know one person using EG4 batteries, and they have had no issues at all. I am not near him, so I can't readily put my scope on it to see how it powers up.

If no one on this thread wants to try and work the problem, I will just stop following it. If the people on here having trouble just want to bitch about SS not giving them free replacement batteries and eating all the shipping costs, I have no interest in reading that. I had hoped to defuse that so we could work the problem, but I guess no one actually wants to do that. Complaining about the customer service seems to be the higher priority.
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Well working the problem is a good thing but this product is not open source.
Its a product that SS is selling for a price with warranty.
So at least if they are not willing to honour warranty for something that is stated in their literature the that should have been dealt with by their engineers.
They should at least listen to the advises on this forum.
I kept on saying i am half way around the world so replacement/warranty is out of the question for me not very practical.
 
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We did replace the batteries for the original user. However - it wasn't a warranty replacement. Warranties protect the end user from manufacturer defects in the product - the batteries returned by the user were 100% operational. There is something in his specific set up that caused the batteries not to work - exactly what, we don't know. But we took his batteries, connected them to the same model inverter, and there were no issues. If I buy a Toyota Corolla, but happen to live in the woods and can't get my car to my house because my driveway is non-existent, I don't assume the warranty on the car will cover that - it's my application of the product that isn't working, not the product itself (even if I was sold the car with the assumption that it will drive and the manufacturer told me that it has been known to have no issues in getting people to their houses). Regardless, we replaced the users batteries with an upgraded unit (that has different specs for BMS voltage etc) to come to an amicable conclusion.
 
RichardfromSignatureSolar said:
We did replace the batteries for the original user. However - it wasn't a warranty replacement. Warranties protect the end user from manufacturer defects in the product - the batteries returned by the user were 100% operational. There is something in his specific set up that caused the batteries not to work - exactly what, we don't know. But we took his batteries, connected them to the same model inverter, and there were no issues. If I buy a Toyota Corolla, but happen to live in the woods and can't get my car to my house because my driveway is non-existent, I don't assume the warranty on the car will cover that - it's my application of the product that isn't working, not the product itself (even if I was sold the car with the assumption that it will drive and the manufacturer told me that it has been known to have no issues in getting people to their houses). Regardless, we replaced the users batteries with an upgraded unit (that has different specs for BMS voltage etc) to come to an amicable conclusion.
Click to expand...
No offense Richard, but this sounds like you are saying there is nothing wrong with the batteries. I don't think you know whether there is something wrong with the batteries or not. Reading about the problems on now multiple inverters, I'd say it seems very likely that there is a problem. You have now made it sound like people are simply not using the batteries how they were intended, but you have no idea how that is.

My modification of your analogy would be this: I buy a Toyota Corolla from you. In my particular case I need to drive it every day at exactly 36 miles per hour for 6 hours. Turns out there is something in the Toyota Corolla that makes it not like staying at 36 miles per hour. I didn't know that when I bought it, and you didn't know that when you sold it. But it certainly was reasonable for me to expect that driving it at 36 miles per hour would not be an issue.

I think it is pretty disingenuous of you to make it sound like "No problem with our batteries. These people are just using it wrong." You can't identify *HOW* anyone is using it wrong, and certainly no one is interested in intentionally using it wrong.

Of all the things in this thread, I think this comment by you has sealed the deal for me. I don't think I trust Signature Solar.
 
RichardfromSignatureSolar said:
We did replace the batteries for the original user. However - it wasn't a warranty replacement. Warranties protect the end user from manufacturer defects in the product - the batteries returned by the user were 100% operational. There is something in his specific set up that caused the batteries not to work - exactly what, we don't know.
Click to expand...


You've sold enough batteries to say that only 0.05% of customers have a problem. That's one out of 2000 sold, and several people have had problems.
You've bought inverters to test with. Swap one of those inverters with nearby customer Kold, and reproduce the problem with his inverter. Get to the bottom of it, and figure out if settings, defects, or other variations in the inverter he received.

Then you can offer a compatibility guarantee to customers:
"Our batteries work with 99.95% of inverters, including 99% of brand XXX. If your inverter isn't compatible, don't worry - we offer a 100% refund and we pay shipping both ways."


You just have to keep 100% of customers from experiencing dissatisfaction that your batteries don't work for them.
If they bought lead-acid, it will work. If they buy SS lithium, it might work, it might not. So eliminate that risk for them.
 
Horsefly said:
No offense Richard, but this sounds like you are saying there is nothing wrong with the batteries. I don't think you know whether there is something wrong with the batteries or not. Reading about the problems on now multiple inverters, I'd say it seems very likely that there is a problem. You have now made it sound like people are simply not using the batteries how they were intended, but you have no idea how that is.

My modification of your analogy would be this: I buy a Toyota Corolla from you. In my particular case I need to drive it every day at exactly 36 miles per hour for 6 hours. Turns out there is something in the Toyota Corolla that makes it not like staying at 36 miles per hour. I didn't know that when I bought it, and you didn't know that when you sold it. But it certainly was reasonable for me to expect that driving it at 36 miles per hour would not be an issue.

I think it is pretty disingenuous of you to make it sound like "No problem with our batteries. These people are just using it wrong." You can't identify *HOW* anyone is using it wrong, and certainly no one is interested in intentionally using it wrong.

Of all the things in this thread, I think this comment by you has sealed the deal for me. I don't think I trust Signature Solar.
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Sorry I came across that way. Definitely wasn't my intention. We 100% understand there is an issue with specific users and these batteries. It's a matter of finding out what exactly is the issue. To be fair, we have the same inverter and used the batteries that were returned and there wasn't an issue with the inverter starting up (as I showed on video) and there are so many variables in an end users set up that you could likely find issues with every battery and every inverter if you tried hard enough. However, I would challenge you to research this forum and find how many other companies would go to the extent we do to find a solution. The reason this forum post is so long is because we have been here doing our best to help - most of the time users post an issue and get absolutely no response from the company and it dies after a page or 2. There isn't a battery brand or inverter brand out there that doesn't have a post about a problem with them, but most companies choose to ignore interacting on a public forum and share knowledge and results. Personally, I'd rather do business with the company where I can see the responses, see the actions they are taking, and know that I'm not going to be shouting into the ether. I do apologize if I came across as off putting and the analogy you replied with is more congruent with the situation. The problem I see with it is - everyone else can drive at 36 miles per hour for 6 hours, just not 1 user. In fact, another user, on the same road and with the same model car does it every day - and the car that was returned also did it when tested in a controlled environment. So that's where the issue is stemming from - an issue that we are still trying to duplicate.
Hedges said:
You've sold enough batteries to say that only 0.05% of customers have a problem. That's one out of 2000 sold, and several people have had problems.
You've bought inverters to test with. Swap one of those inverters with nearby customer Kold, and reproduce the problem with his inverter. Get to the bottom of it, and figure out if settings, defects, or other variations in the inverter he received.

Then you can offer a compatibility guarantee to customers:
"Our batteries work with 99.95% of inverters, including 99% of brand XXX. If your inverter isn't compatible, don't worry - we offer a 100% refund and we pay shipping both ways."


You just have to keep 100% of customers from experiencing dissatisfaction that your batteries don't work for them.
If they bought lead-acid, it will work. If they buy SS lithium, it might work, it might not. So eliminate that risk for them.
Click to expand...
That statistic was a very fast calculation - I looked up how many units were sold in the same shipment that the user who was reporting an error had come in and how many reported issues we have. If we look at the model in general with the same manufacturer, that number drops significantly lower. We actually did offer for Kold to bring his inverter to our location for us to test in a controlled environment while he was on site, and he declined. And our refund policy is actually basically what you stated. We do refunds on a case by case basis - that means we do attempt troubleshooting, examine the reason for the request, etc. In this case, I would say that we would likely do exactly what you stated. This issue has been evolving and so has our stance on it at Signature Solar. We are definitely not here to stick someone with a battery that doesn't work and say 'Good Luck'. We have a huge backlog of people chomping at the bit to get these batteries and a number of them wouldn't mind an unused (as in no cycles) unit with an open box discount.
 
RichardfromSignatureSolar said:
Sorry I came across that way. Definitely wasn't my intention. We 100% understand there is an issue with specific users and these batteries. It's a matter of finding out what exactly is the issue. To be fair, we have the same inverter and used the batteries that were returned and there wasn't an issue with the inverter starting up (as I showed on video) and there are so many variables in an end users set up that you could likely find issues with every battery and every inverter if you tried hard enough. However, I would challenge you to research this forum and find how many other companies would go to the extent we do to find a solution. The reason this forum post is so long is because we have been here doing our best to help - most of the time users post an issue and get absolutely no response from the company and it dies after a page or 2. There isn't a battery brand or inverter brand out there that doesn't have a post about a problem with them, but most companies choose to ignore interacting on a public forum and share knowledge and results. Personally, I'd rather do business with the company where I can see the responses, see the actions they are taking, and know that I'm not going to be shouting into the ether. I do apologize if I came across as off putting and the analogy you replied with is more congruent with the situation. The problem I see with it is - everyone else can drive at 36 miles per hour for 6 hours, just not 1 user. In fact, another user, on the same road and with the same model car does it every day - and the car that was returned also did it when tested in a controlled environment. So that's where the issue is stemming from - an issue that we are still trying to duplicate.

That statistic was a very fast calculation - I looked up how many units were sold in the same shipment that the user who was reporting an error had come in and how many reported issues we have. If we look at the model in general with the same manufacturer, that number drops significantly lower. We actually did offer for Kold to bring his inverter to our location for us to test in a controlled environment while he was on site, and he declined. And our refund policy is actually basically what you stated. We do refunds on a case by case basis - that means we do attempt troubleshooting, examine the reason for the request, etc. In this case, I would say that we would likely do exactly what you stated. This issue has been evolving and so has our stance on it at Signature Solar. We are definitely not here to stick someone with a battery that doesn't work and say 'Good Luck'. We have a huge backlog of people chomping at the bit to get these batteries and a number of them wouldn't mind an unused (as in no cycles) unit with an open box discount.
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Its not just one user.
Mistrust for.SS just.keeps increasing.
And this is why i keep say poor customer service , both on this forum anSS customer service .
 
RichardfromSignatureSolar said:
Sorry I came across that way. Definitely wasn't my intention. We 100% understand there is an issue with specific users and these batteries. It's a matter of finding out what exactly is the issue. To be fair, we have the same inverter and used the batteries that were returned and there wasn't an issue with the inverter starting up (as I showed on video) and there are so many variables in an end users set up that you could likely find issues with every battery and every inverter if you tried hard enough.
Click to expand...

You had a perfect opportunity to figure this out with a customer that was 45 minutes from you. Myself and about a dozen others have told you this. Why you didn't send an installer electrician etc. out to figure it out is beyond me. A competent electrician likely could have done basic troubleshooting and told you what was going on. This would have helped all the others experiencing the exact same problem. But you guys chose not to do something so obvious. Somehow, you thought buying thousands of dollars worth of inverters and then saying "it works fine here" was somehow the way to solve the issue. That helped nobody except yourself.
RichardfromSignatureSolar said:
That statistic was a very fast calculation - I looked up how many units were sold in the same shipment that the user who was reporting an error had come in and how many reported issues we have. If we look at the model in general with the same manufacturer, that number drops significantly lower. We actually did offer for Kold to bring his inverter to our location for us to test in a controlled environment while he was on site, and he declined.
Click to expand...

Like i told you several times, i live off grid and have no way to run everything without an inverter. You want me to just take my inverter down, drive it to you guys and wait indefinitely? Yeah, i wonder why i didn't think that was a good option. You know that but you want to get on here and act like i wasn't willing to cooperate or something. You guys just don't get it and i doubt you ever will.
 
RichardfromSignatureSolar said:
We have a huge backlog of people chomping at the bit to get these batteries and a number of them wouldn't mind an unused (as in no cycles) unit with an open box discount.
Click to expand...

Well that's not what i was offered so i hope you are not referring to me. Two of the "open box" batteries were described as "not sure if they have been hooked to an inverter". Like i said then, i paid for new batteries not "open box not sure how many cycles" batteries.
 
RichardfromSignatureSolar said:
Regardless, we replaced the users batteries with an upgraded unit (that has different specs for BMS voltage etc) to come to an amicable conclusion.
Click to expand...
And there it is... you said it. Different bms and different settings. After two months we never even tried changing settings on my lifepowers to replicate the LL model. As @Mr-Sandman has asked about 20 times by now, what is the difference? If you guys aren't competent enough to figure that out, well that's on you.
 
I think if I were SS at this point I would replace Koldsimer’s Inverter. Give him the one you purchased. At this point he may even need something more for his troubles. Hire a installer to do the work to his satisfaction. If he would accept this then bring his in and test it. I am sure most people here except you will encounter the problem on the bench that he did in the field. If you don’t then you have a legitimate position that it was something on his setup. If it doesn’t start the inverter then use it as a benchmark for all batteries in the future. Tell your supplier to send a sample for testing and test it on that inverter. If it doesn’t start it go back to then and tell them it doesn’t meet our testing parameters.
I think you got lucky, I think the electronic portion of this particular model was such that it is just on the edge of not starting about half of the inverters out there. You could had a lot of these to deal with like the charger that was out of specs. ( compared to labeling). You need his inverter.
 
Guys I think Richard is trying very hard but he is kind of hitting into a brick wall because his boss has put so many limitations on what he can say and do. I wish the owner would come back and tell us what he plans to do to fix the issue as that is not within Richards power.

The fact that you can pull out a LifePower EG4 and Replace it with a EG4LL and the system works is pretty much all the proof you need that somethingg is not right with the LifePower. It's not just the EG4LL that works, what we know so far is that any other battery except for the LifePower will make these Inverters work.
 
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