Schneider xw pro 6848 not powering up with eg4 lithium battery

[Solar Guy Richard]

Thanks for checking on the built in charge resistor. I do think though it does have some relevance since the issue was with starting inverters. The website states:

Installation is as easy as:
1. removing your lead-acid batteries and replacing them with EG4-WP Lithium Batteries
2. attach your cables
3. secure them down-- DONE!

But that is obviously not the case. Maybe there should be a disclaimer about these inverter startup issues? Thanks Richard for all the time you have put into these issues on this thread. Your efforts are much appreciated.

Not a problem. There are definitely protections built in as far as precharge etc and that being an issue in this post, but for this use case it is likely working as intended to prevent damage to your inverter.

 

[Mahendra Gomanie]

Verified that the waterproof batteries do not have a built in charge resistor. This explains @Trkarl your issue. It is not related to this post.

Well its confirmed that the bms is crap in these units.
My my and i though it was an issue with low freqency inverters only.
Did anyone tried the larger Growatt units with these?
Problem is definitely multiplying
I am sure there are others that are having problems but are not on this forum or aware of it.

 

[Mahendra Gomanie]

Thanks for checking on the built in charge resistor. I do think though it does have some relevance since the issue was with starting inverters. The website states:

Installation is as easy as:
1. removing your lead-acid batteries and replacing them with EG4-WP Lithium Batteries
2. attach your cables
3. secure them down-- DONE!

But that is obviously not the case. Maybe there should be a disclaimer about these inverter startup issues? Thanks Richard for all the time you have put into these issues on this thread. Your efforts are much appreciated.

So what should this disclaimer be :
our batteries are not guranteed to work,
Especially with all noted brands like outback,magnum,victron,schneider,now sma and you might want to add Midnite's DIY and Rosie and others upcoming.
The Tom and Jerry line would be "You should have just gotten lead acid or some other lithium while you are at it."

I have been using CALB life for 7years now .Initially I started with a bms but it gave more problems than it solve.So i top balance and check yearly since.only recently added an overkill bms.Cell imbalance has been next to nothing.
But we all like to improve so you give the new stuff a chance.
Ss batteries is giving life a bad name at this point .I think i am sticking to diy with overkill bms for my lithium.
If i can afford i will look for reputable brands

 

[jberger]

I think more than half your posts on the forum are in this thread.
Do you have specific issues with Signature Solar and have they failed to meet thier obligations to you, or are you just stirring the pot?

 

[Bluedog225]

Put “work” in air quotes…?

 

[Mahendra Gomanie]

Yes i do have an issue as i have mentioned Iam stuck with batteries that i have to jump start with a charger when the sun is not out on two diffrent brand inverters in diffrent set ups which i mentioned.
I am sorry you feel bad but i am sure you will too if you invested thousands of dollars that didnt perform as advertised.
Was willing to go out of the way to assist with this issue as many others have done .

 

[Will Prowse]

If you did the manual precharge your problem would have gone away,

After reading 9 pages of this thread, why did OP not use a pre charge resistor to manually charge the caps? Multiple people suggested it and it was never tried.

Bravo to the Schneider tech who suggested the startup protocol. Am I missing anything here? Trying to figure out if there is an actual problem here beside inverter inrush.

 

[Will Prowse]

This is a Precharge resistor issue for sure. I suspect it will go away with a future batch of modified batteries, but those who jumped in now and have issues they will be waging this warranty war for a long time and I suspect with little success.

Why not just use a $2 resistor, or even some pencil lead to pre charge the caps? Am I missing something because I have read the whole thread and it seems like it could be solved for $2.

I also think signature solar needs to include documentation on how to use the precharge circuit. And a video showing it in action with this Schneider inverter as proof that it works properly.

For me personally, I don't use the pre-charge circuit. Just use a $2 resistor and fire up my system in seconds.

 

[Mr-Sandman]

Will the issue wouldn't be solved with a pre-charge resistor for the EG4 LifePower4, it has built in pre-charge circuit that is causing the issue.. The EG4 waterproof battery, YES it needs external pre-charge.

The issue is the EG4 LifePower4 batteries built in pre-charge circuit stays engaged too long for inverters that power up as soon as DC power is applied. For Schneider and other inverters like them, besides the initial cap charge, they immediately start pulling current during "boot up", even if not inverting. If the pre-charge circuit is still engaged when they start to "boot" they experience low voltage and don't start. An external pre-charge won't solve this, because it doesn't bypass the internal built in pre-charge. If they would just shorten the pre-charge timer (currently set to 4 seconds SS has said), it would likely fix the issue.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

Why not just use a $2 resistor, or even some pencil lead to pre charge the caps? Am I missing something because I have read the whole thread and it seems like it could be solved for $2.

I also think signature solar needs to include documentation on how to use the precharge circuit. And a video showing it in action with this Schneider inverter as proof that it works properly.

For me personally, I don't use the pre-charge circuit. Just use a $2 resistor and fire up my system in seconds.

Here's a video of his batteries returned to us starting up each 1 at a time:

Here's a video of lifepower4 batteries prior to his return starting up the Schneider:

Here's a video of EG4-LL batteries prior to his return starting up the Schneider:

Here's a playlist of most of the mentioned models in these threads starting up with LifePower4's and EG4-LL's: https://www.google.com/search?q=ric...i59j69i61l3.3494j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Definitely done what we can to show they work. Not sure what's going on with his set up, but it's definitely an isolated issue.

 

[Mr-Sandman]

but it's definitely an isolated issue

That's not true, you have multiple people in this thread reporting the same issue. While it is a mystery why you can't reproduce it with your test inverters, there is several people reporting the same issue. They have reported it in this thread.

 

[robby]

Definitely done what we can to show they work. Not sure what's going on with his set up, but it's definitely an isolated issue.

Come on Richard we had two separate threads on this issue and there have been about four different Inverter models having this problem.
How can you say it's isolated to only @Koldsimer inverter?

 

[robby]

I just took delivery of 3 48v 100 a/h waterproof EG4 batteries and had the same problem with my inverter not starting. I had read this thread and watched videos about precharging the inverter so at least I was prepared with a resistor to jump my breaker before turning it on If it didn’t work first.

The inverter is an SMA Sunny island 5048u I bought in 2009. When I first tried turning on the main breaker to the inverter I waited for about 10 seconds then turned on the breaker on the front of the inverter. Within less than a second everything shut down.

Then I turned off all the breakers and let it set for about a minute. Then turned on the breaker on the inverter and jumped the main breaker with the resistor setup. Within two seconds the inverter lit up in it’s standby mode. I then switched on the main breaker and started the inverter into inverting mode. Everything is working fine now but just wanted to let you guys know the start problem is not just with the server rack batteries.

Another case from Yesterday @RichardfromSignatureSolar.
If this owner was not technically inclined and seemingly willing to live with the issue he would be another customer seeking a refund.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

That's not true, you have multiple people in this thread reporting the same issue. While it is a mystery why you can't reproduce it with your test inverters, there is several people reporting the same issue. They have reported it in this thread.

Isolated to a few number of people. It's not a manufacturer or model wide issue that can be duplicated. I never said it was only isolated to a single incident, merely that it is an isolated issue in general.

Come on Richard we had two separate threads on this issue and there have been about four different Inverter models having this problem.
How can you say it's isolated to only @Koldsimer inverter?

Not isolated to him only. Isolated in the sense that it is not an issue with EVERY 6848. I never said it was isolated to only this user. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Another case from Yesterday @RichardfromSignatureSolar.
If this owner was not technically inclined and seemingly willing to live with the issue he would be another customer seeking a refund.

This is a completely different battery that doesn't even have a pre-charge resistor built in. Different manufacturer, different bms, different architecture. His issue is likely that he needs to use a pre-charge resistor (as the waterproof ones don't have them built in).

 

[robby]

Why not just use a $2 resistor, or even some pencil lead to pre charge the caps? Am I missing something because I have read the whole thread and it seems like it could be solved for $2.

I also think signature solar needs to include documentation on how to use the precharge circuit. And a video showing it in action with this Schneider inverter as proof that it works properly.

For me personally, I don't use the pre-charge circuit. Just use a $2 resistor and fire up my system in seconds.

Well I guess you know by now that this was already tried and wont work because the Pre-Charge circuit seems to stay engaged or it is not letting the BMS turn on the main Mosfets.

In any case now that I have you here, I wanted to ask about those TWO sweet looking SOK batteries that you had in your Viking Hoard of batteries shown in that last video.
Does this mean they will soon be available

 

[Koldsimer]

Why not just use a $2 resistor, or even some pencil lead to pre charge the caps? Am I missing something because I have read the whole thread and it seems like it could be solved for $2.

I also think signature solar needs to include documentation on how to use the precharge circuit. And a video showing it in action with this Schneider inverter as proof that it works properly.

For me personally, I don't use the pre-charge circuit. Just use a $2 resistor and fire up my system in seconds.

I was actually about to try and rig up a switch with a resistor via @MrM1 thread but around that time, Signature began suggesting that it was bms related, so i decided to wait and see what they suggested. I was also hesitant to try this because from what i understood, the battery had this function built in already. SS said i shouldn't have to do this. Eventually, in this thread, they acknowledged that they made some changes to pre-charge timing and it was likely the culprit.

At this point, they took over two months to communicate with engineering to try and find out what needed to be done to correct the issue. After two months, they were never able to even attempt any bms setting change on my system. During that time, i went to the trouble of successfully hooking up multiple types of batteries, including lithium, to my system to prove that it wasn't something "wrong" with my system.

Since i am less than 45 minutes from their shop, i invited them over multiple times to see my system in person and witness exactly the problem i was having. I told them i would hook up both other battery types with them present to see my system functions fine with other batteries. Told them i would sign any safety liability forms needed. I offered to make lattes. They wouldn't do it for whatever reason.

Seems to me a qualified electrician or EE could have told them what was happening and how to fix it fairly quickly. Hell, just from the guys on this forum, it has been widely agreed that reducing the duration of the pre-charge from 4000ms to 1000ms would likely have fixed my issue.

I also made a video showing the problem i was experiencing.

I finally convinced them to let me try the eg4 LL batteries since there have never been any startup issues with the LL model. These have a different bms and different settings. They worked perfectly, first try.

 

[robby]

Definitely done what we can to show they work. Not sure what's going on with his set up, but it's definitely an isolated issue.

Richard when you write stuff like this it definetly sounds like your saying its an "isolated issue". We know it's not and Isolated issue to the model or to a specific inverter model in general. Anyway I guess it was a poor choice of words but it did come off as you saying to Will don't worry its just this one guy.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

Richard when you write stuff like this it definetly sounds like your saying its an "isolated issue". We know it's not and Isolated issue to the model or to a specific inverter model in general. Anyway I guess it was a poor choice of words but it did come off as you saying to Will don't worry its just this one guy.

Sorry about that. Not my intention. I was trying to convey that it's not a model wide or manufacturer wide issue.

 

[acdoctor]

So I am sure everyone here is like me and wants to know What is Signature Solar’s plan from here? Specifically with the sales, marketing and compatibility guarantee.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

So I am sure everyone here is like me and wants to know What is Signature Solar’s plan from here? Specifically with the sales, marketing and compatibility guarantee.

As of now we will review any RMA claims and process them accordingly. If you get your battery and hook it up and it immediately has issues, I'm sure we are going to cover that no problems. If you had your battery for a year and report an issue, we are likely going to want to review the details a little more to find out what's happening. We aren't trying to stick anyone with a battery that doesn't work. Also, I'm unsure of what 'compatibility guarantee' we could have. At the end of the day, there is no way to 100% guarantee that any equipment is going to work with 3rd party parts etc. Is there something on our website that states something like this? I'm definitely wanting to research that statement.

 

[acdoctor]

No, I wasn’t trying to imply you currently have one. I am not reviewing the whole thread however I think Koldsimer was told more than once that they were very much compatible. But without one I would need to look at different batteries for my self in the future. I have a Schneider XW+6848.

 

[Mr-Sandman]

No, I wasn’t trying to imply you currently have one. I am not reviewing the whole thread however I think Koldsimer was told more than once that they were very much compatible. But without one I would need to look at different batteries for my self in the future. I have a Schneider XW+6848.

I DO NOT recommend the EG4 LifePower4 batteries for any inverter that powers up when DC Power is applied, such as the Schneider, Magnums, Outbacks. STAY CLEAR OF THOSE!!!!!! The EG4 LL seems to work fine if you want to spend the premium $ or better yet check out the many other companies starting to ship these rack style batteries.

 

[Koldsimer]

I DO NOT recommend the EG4 LifePower4 batteries for any inverter that powers up when DC Power is applied, such as the Schneider, Magnums, Outbacks. STAY CLEAR OF THOSE!!!!!! The EG4 LL seems to work fine if you want to spend the premium $ or better yet check out the many other companies starting to ship these rack style batteries.

Agreed 100%. In fact, someone on here just posted about the 48v 110ah Trophy batteries they received. They showed how they were boxed for shipment- very impressed! Just like how Discover packages their batteries. Nice heavy duty wooden crate on a heavy duty pallet.

CATL 120ah cells, internal heaters, non-prorated 10 year warranty, user programmable BMS, Will Prowse inspected and approved.... hmmmmm Buyers remorse!


https://diysolarforum.com/attachments/batbox-png.86587/

 

[400bird]

I also made a video showing the problem i was experiencing

You realize you turned on the breakers in the opposite order from how SS powered things up with your batteries on the bench in their video?

 

[Koldsimer]

You realize you turned on the breakers in the opposite order from how SS powered things up with your batteries on the bench in their video?

LOL yes, i do. I tried it with the main breaker closed multiple times as well. Tried every way possible and they would only start with a good steady 20a + input from my scc's to help them.