Schneider xw pro 6848 not powering up with eg4 lithium battery

[400bird]

LOL yes, i do. I tried it with the main breaker closed multiple times as well. Tried every way possible and they would only start with a good steady 20a + input from my scc's to help them.

Sorry, I figured as much, with all the contact you have had with SS. Looks to me like that video just isn't a great representation of a proper precharge attempt. Hopefully, others don't follow that, unless that is what SS recommends.

I understand your position.
But I'm with Will, build precharge circuit.


I think Signature would be furthest ahead to abandon this "integrated precharge" on all future batteries.
I have no advise for those that need to rely in integrated precharge and have already purchased a battery.
It seems like they found a great battery, but the vendor in China didn't get the precharge right to cover 100% of installations.

 

[Koldsimer]

Sorry, I figured as much, with all the contact you have had with SS. Looks to me like that video just isn't a great representation of a proper precharge attempt. Hopefully, others don't follow that, unless that is what SS recommends.

I understand your position.
But I'm with Will, build precharge circuit.


I think Signature would be furthest ahead to abandon this "integrated precharge" on all future batteries.
I have no advise for those that need to rely in integrated precharge and have already purchased a battery.
It seems like they found a great battery, but the vendor in China didn't get the precharge right to cover 100% of installations.

I made the video just to show what symptoms my inverter was experiencing. But you're right, I should have shown the exact order they recommend to remove any doubts for people who were not following every detail of my issue.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

No, I wasn’t trying to imply you currently have one. I am not reviewing the whole thread however I think Koldsimer was told more than once that they were very much compatible. But without one I would need to look at different batteries for my self in the future. I have a Schneider XW+6848.

Got it. Yes, he was told it would work based on the fact that up until this point it had worked for several users with the exact same model.

 

[Will Prowse]

Agreed 100%. In fact, someone on here just posted about the 48v 110ah Trophy batteries they received. They showed how they were boxed for shipment- very impressed! Just like how Discover packages their batteries. Nice heavy duty wooden crate on a heavy duty pallet.

CATL 120ah cells, internal heaters, non-prorated 10 year warranty, user programmable BMS, Will Prowse inspected and approved.... hmmmmm Buyers remorse!


https://diysolarforum.com/attachments/batbox-png.86587/

I think the trophy battery pack is probably best server rack lifepo4 for the money on the market right now. Costs a little bit more than eg4, but lots of features and some of the best cells around. Just the terminals alone and the screen information are fantastic. Very professional communication with that company as well.

 

[Koldsimer]

I think the trophy battery pack is probably best server rack lifepo4 for the money on the market right now. Costs a little bit more than eg4, but lots of features and some of the best cells around. Just the terminals alone and the screen information are fantastic. Very professional communication with that company as well.

And what about that awesome box it comes in! Seriously, that attention to detail shows me they are serious about protecting their/your investment as soon as it leaves the building.

 

[Mahendra Gomanie]

Isolated to a few number of people. It's not a manufacturer or model wide issue that can be duplicated. I never said it was only isolated to a single incident, merely that it is an isolated issue in general.

Not isolated to him only. Isolated in the sense that it is not an issue with EVERY 6848. I never said it was isolated to only this user. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

This is a completely different battery that doesn't even have a pre-charge resistor built in. Different manufacturer, different bms, different architecture. His issue is likely that he needs to use a pre-charge resistor (as the waterproof ones don't have them built in).

Different manufacturer is not our concern.
Same seller is our concern.
I am just being a bit cocky technical here like what your upper bosses are doing.
I hope you relize denying is only adding to the already high mistrust and anger

 

[Mahendra Gomanie]

Isolated to a few number of people. It's not a manufacturer or model wide issue that can be duplicated. I never said it was only isolated to a single incident, merely that it is an isolated issue in general.

Not isolated to him only. Isolated in the sense that it is not an issue with EVERY 6848. I never said it was isolated to only this user. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

This is a completely different battery that doesn't even have a pre-charge resistor built in. Different manufacturer, different bms, different architecture. His issue is likely that he needs to use a pre-charge resistor (as the waterproof ones don't have them built in).

This is exactly what is happening .
Because these iverters are functioning inverters
I metioned that i test voltage durijg this failure and it was pretty low.
I also noted that tue inverter would attempt to boot up very briefly but wouldnt because the battery goes to protect mode.

 

[Will Prowse]

I asked sok and they said their server rack BMS pre charge resistor delay is very easy to program. And they are testing it on different models before they finalize the stock settings.

Furthermore, they said they can program any BMS to work with any inverter. Said it is very easy, just a single line of code.

I bet @RichardfromSignatureSolar could figure it out. Do you guys flash the firmware in house? Who is responsible for coding the BMS? You could even write up a little guide on how to do it. Doesn't seem that hard after talking to sok. Everyone is using the same BMS it seems.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

I asked sok and they said their server rack BMS pre charge resistor delay is very easy to program. And they are testing it on different models before they finalize the stock settings.

Furthermore, they said they can program any BMS to work with any inverter. Said it is very easy, just a single line of code.

I bet @RichardfromSignatureSolar could figure it out. Do you guys flash the firmware in house? Who is responsible for coding the BMS? You could even write up a little guide on how to do it. Doesn't seem that hard after talking to sok. Everyone is using the same BMS it seems.

I've never looked at the programming for the BMS. My other IT focused colleague at one point wrote a program to grab all the battery parameters via MODBUS but not sure how deep into that he got. I honestly haven't had time to dive into that but maybe I will, we are all working like crazy over here to make as many people happy as possible. Just started coming up for air recently, so maybe in this next month we can actually do a deep dive on the BMS.

 

[Mr-Sandman]

so maybe in this next month we can actually do a deep dive on the BMS.

I'd start by lowering the BMS pre-charge timer................

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

I'd start by lowering the BMS pre-charge timer................

We literally manually tested this from 0-10 seconds. Even at 10 seconds it wasn't duplicating the issue. That is not the SOLE reason this is happening.

 

[mnd]

We literally manually tested this from 0-10 seconds. Even at 10 seconds it wasn't duplicating the issue. That is not the SOLE reason this is happening.

I can't recall, but did you test with longer battery-inverter leads? Maybe this is an inductive ringing issue?

 

[Mr-Sandman]

We literally manually tested this from 0-10 seconds. Even at 10 seconds it wasn't duplicating the issue. That is not the SOLE reason this is happening.

You didn't do it on a inverter having the issue though. So you really didn't accomplish anything.

 

[Koldsimer]

D

You didn't do it on a inverter having the issue though. So you really didn't accomplish anything.

Ding ding ding we have a winner! That's why this whole deal is laughable at this point. Signature Solar STILL doesn't get it.

 

[Bluedog225]

End of the day, I do want you to tell me the battery is going to work with the particular inverter I’m going to buy. That’s a fundamental requirement. You guys need to work that out. Other companies do.

 

[mnd]

End of the day, I do want you to tell me the battery is going to work with the particular inverter I’m going to buy. That’s a fundamental requirement. You guys need to work that out. Other companies do.

Except they did, based on previous customer reports, and then confirmed it themselves.

If you guys need this level of assurance, why not get a solar installer to handle things for you?

 

[Mahendra Gomanie]

I've never looked at the programming for the BMS. My other IT focused colleague at one point wrote a program to grab all the battery parameters via MODBUS but not sure how deep into that he got. I honestly haven't had time to dive into that but maybe I will, we are all working like crazy over here to make as many people happy as possible. Just started coming up for air recently, so maybe in this next month we can actually do a deep dive on the BMS.

Working hard therenot smart

 

[Mahendra Gomanie]

End of the day, I do want you to tell me the battery is going to work with the particular inverter I’m going to buy. That’s a fundamental requirement. You guys need to work that out. Other companies do.

Thats our point all along

 

[Mahendra Gomanie]

Except they did, based on previous customer reports, and then confirmed it themselves.

If you guys need this level of assurance, why not get a solar installer to handle things for you?

I did .Remember i mentiined a bought a new outback radian.
Retailer /installer confrimed its a battery issue .system set up followed all codes.
I even got the outback load centre and replaced wrining from panels to battery both on dc and ac side.
New grounds as well.
So basically it was a new install that resulted in the same issue.

 

[Mr-Sandman]

Does other Lithium based batteries have issues starting inverters? I can't recall ever seeing anyone say anything about having this issue with any other battery than the EG4's.

 

[mnd]

Does other Lithium based batteries have issues starting inverters? I can't recall ever seeing anyone say anything about having this issue with any other battery than the EG4's.

Will has a whole video dedicated to pre-charging inverters. If this is necessary to avoid triggering BMS current safety limits then a better question may be are other batteries that "work" a result of higher limits? No limits? Difference in BMS processing power/current sensor resolution?

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

You didn't do it on a inverter having the issue though. So you really didn't accomplish anything.

True - but if this was the ONLY reason for the problem, it would be able to be duplicated. That's all I'm saying - it may be a contributing factor, but the precharge timing is not the ONLY factor that is causing the issue.

End of the day, I do want you to tell me the battery is going to work with the particular inverter I’m going to buy. That’s a fundamental requirement. You guys need to work that out. Other companies do.

I get that. But, we had dozens of people using this same battery, same manufacturing run, with this same inverter model and it worked. How could we know that there was going to be some factor in the users set up that would cause these problems? I'm curious as to how we could supply this guarantee when we don't control the end product for other companies, or even a users installation? We have definitely done our best to make sure that the battery meets standards that are generally accepted as to how things should be done, but we can't account for every possible manufacturer, model, firmware version, and user customization. The batteries retuned by the user worked with the model of inverter he states he has - I've got a video of it for all to see. As to what the differences between HIS inverter, and the one we have on our bench, I don't have that answer. I do know he has added additional hardware to the bottom of his inverter (breakers and such), and I don't know the intricacies of his specific set up. This specific case study is exactly why there isn't a company out there that guarantees their product will 100% always work with another companies product (exceptions made for when 2 companies decide to collaborate on the development).

Except they did, based on previous customer reports, and then confirmed it themselves.

If you guys need this level of assurance, why not get a solar installer to handle things for you?

This is what I'm saying. We had case studies showing it working with Schneiders. We have a number of customers who regularly use Schneiders - this user isn't the first or only person to buy our batteries and use it with this model of inverter. And even at the end of this ordeal with the user, (one which I know offered frustrations to both sides), he ended up with an upgraded battery at no additional cost to him that works.

Does other Lithium based batteries have issues starting inverters? I can't recall ever seeing anyone say anything about having this issue with any other battery than the EG4's.

This specific issue? I'm not sure. But there are definitely other reports of issues with batteries and inverters not working together. We hear the other side of this coin with the Growatt inverters - someone buys the inverter from us, and for xxx reason it won't work with their battery. It's not an isolated issue in general, only isolated in this specific case. This being said, we worked directly with Growatt and I haven't seen an issue where our battery didn't work with an inverter purchased from us for reasons we couldn't deduce quickly - because we collaborated in that development.

 

[Mr-Sandman]

Will has a whole video dedicated to pre-charging inverters. If this is necessary to avoid triggering BMS current safety limits then a better question may be are other batteries that "work" a result of higher limits? No limits? Difference in BMS processing power/current sensor resolution?

Right, when a battery manufacture, such as EG4, decides to implement an "automatic" pre-charge circuit INTO the battery, they are taking on the task of making it work with all inverters. There is NO way to bypass the built in pre-charge in the EG4's, so if they don't work you are just SOL. At least if they didn't have that feature, you could make your own pre-charge circuit and make it work for your inverter/setup.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

I did .Remember i mentiined a bought a new outback radian.
Retailer /installer confrimed its a battery issue .system set up followed all codes.
I even got the outback load centre and replaced wrining from panels to battery both on dc and ac side.
New grounds as well.
So basically it was a new install that resulted in the same issue.

And We purchased an Outback Radian that works with the batteries. You can't use anecdotal evidence as evidence for an overarching problem. You can use your anecdotal evidence as a contribution to statistics, but saying "XX didn't work for me" is the least valid type of evidence that exists. I personally was attacked by a dog who was behind a fence - does that mean every dog behind a fence will attack someone? That's why statistics matter much more when it comes to quite literally any academic study. If you told me "We have 1000 Radian Outbacks and tested it on all of them and it didn't work" that would be another story. I believe I put the video of the outback working with the batteries for everyone to see. And again - I'm not disputing that this didn't work for you. I simply am unable to duplicate the issue using a controlled environment.

 

[mnd]

There is NO way to bypass the built in pre-charge in the EG4's, so if they don't work you are just SOL

Is that true though? A number of folks suggested ways of pre-charging to isolate that as the cause and I don't believe that test ever happened.