Adding Schneider XW Pro

400bird said:

If I was to do it again, I wouldn't use AC coupling to charge my battery.
I think I'd be happier if I went with a DC coupled system. But, I installed the original grid tied solar with no plans on adding a battery later.

As much as we give them a hard time, Schneider has been response to the basic and set up questions. It's only when pushing to to the edge of their system or pointing out weaknesses that they become useless.

Most of my issues have been caused by a combination of not fully understanding the limitations of the hardware and a software update that didn't agree with my set up.

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Well maybe but I've see three other users two are off grid homesteading and they both had issues with firmware, stacking, the gateways etc and schneider was totally useless. One of them bought his two inverters from a arizona wind and the dealer was on point to try and help but in the end he got so frustrated he just disconnected one inverter. I think the other guy figured his issues out with the help of another youtuber that installed a dual setup and was also an electrician. Both cases the manufacture didn't resolve the issue. I wish you could stack the SW modules they seem less problematic.

GXMnow said:

With my batteries hiding in my garage, I don't have your heat issue. They are up to about 86F (30C) now, with the outside air at 95F in the shade on my north side porch. My other outside air temp sensor is still out of the sun under the eve on the north side of the house. That one shows 102F because it is not far enough under the roof and it seem to be getting some radiated/conducted heat from the bottom of the roof overhang. Have you measure the real watt hours it takes to run the chiller?

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Yeah, I wish I had that option. It was my original hope, but that wasn't going to pass inspection.

When it's hot out the pack gets up to ambient even with 2" of foam insulation and a passable air seal on the lid.

To answer your question on useage.
There's 3 components to the chiller.
Pump 8 watts
Evaporator fans 14 watts
The one variable is the compressor.
I just measured the current at 85 ambient and got 1.3 amps at about half speed. But, when the ambient temps are higher, that could easily double.
I decided to turn down the speed, in hopes that lower cooling but more coolant movement would better distribute the heat. When I left the current was at 0.7 amps for the compressor, basically just above the minimum of about 0.55 amps.

So, the rough math puts that at 150 Wh to run the chiller for one cycle.

At the lower speed the chiller ran for 2 hours.
I'm not sure it limited the temperature differential.

But, the worst news is not a surprise for anyone. I've got a coolant leak ?
This coming weekend I'll be taking out the top pack to address the leak I found and check for others.
Luckily it is a small leak.

realpinochet said:

Well maybe but I've see three other users two are off grid homesteading and they both had issues with firmware, stacking, the gateways etc and schneider was totally useless. One of them bought his two inverters from a arizona wind and the dealer was on point to try and help but in the end he got so frustrated he just disconnected one inverter. I think the other guy figured his issues out with the help of another youtuber that installed a dual setup and was also an electrician. Both cases the manufacture didn't resolve the issue. I wish you could stack the SW modules they seem less problematic.

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Well, if the Schneider thinks the answer is in the manual, they're just going to point you at the manual.

I'm not sure what to say about they other guy not being able to get his dual stacked XW's working. PVdude here did it. I understand his grumbling about the extra expense of purchasing the adjustment tool. But, other than that it seemed straightforward.

If there's any question/concern about install or needing support, I recommend an Outback Radian. At the very least, so you don't hold it against me if your unhappy with the Schneider.

400bird said:

Well, if the Schneider thinks the answer is in the manual, they're just going to point you at the manual.

I'm not sure what to say about they other guy not being able to get his dual stacked XW's working. PVdude here did it. I understand his grumbling about the extra expense of purchasing the adjustment tool. But, other than that it seemed straightforward.

If there's any question/concern about install or needing support, I recommend an Outback Radian. At the very least, so you don't hold it against me if your unhappy with the Schneider.

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400bird said:

Well, if the Schneider thinks the answer is in the manual, they're just going to point you at the manual.

I'm not sure what to say about they other guy not being able to get his dual stacked XW's working. PVdude here did it. I understand his grumbling about the extra expense of purchasing the adjustment tool. But, other than that it seemed straightforward.

If there's any question/concern about install or needing support, I recommend an Outback Radian. At the very least, so you don't hold it against me if your unhappy with the Schneider.

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Nah man, I'd hold it again the producer. Isn't Schneider made in America, if so I expect top notch support.

realpinochet said:

Nah man, I'd hold it again the producer. Isn't Schneider made in America, if so I expect top notch support.

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Not made in the US or supported from the US.

realpinochet said:

Knowing what you guys now know about schneider and their poor and inept customer service alongside lazy, uninterested and unmotivated engineering / management....would you pick the same system today?

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I haven't used Schneider inverters (just electrical panels/breakers) so can't comment on them.
I use SMA Sunny Island, Sunny Boy (and now TriPower), have split phase and 3-phase systems.
I would do the same thing for off-grid.

Before I got the PLC control working, I would not think of getting another Schneider, BUT...

Now that I have the PLC control, the Schneider XW-Pro can do things very few inverter/charger units can. The ability to very quickly adjust the output current in both charging and grid sell with quite fine adjustments is great. It is just kind of sad that you need another device to do the control. There is no reason at all that they couldn't build the control I am doing into the Gateway (Insight) firmware. I had it doing optimized AC coupled battery charging without any external sensors, only using the data from the internal current/power metering. I only had to add the extra power meters to be able to zero my grid side while powering loads back in my main panel. And the XW-Pro CAN do that if it is DC coupled and you add the WattNode power meter. For the price of the WattNode I got my PLC and the pair of PZEM-016 power meters, and still have money left over. It is not "revenue grade" metering, but t is sure close enough for what we are doing.

I would not be surprised if other high end inverters can do what we are doing with the XW-Pro, but when I tried to find data control information, I struck out on most of the others. With the Schneider, we were able to find the complete register map with some details on how to use them. 400bird and I are using some different registers, so our controls are not the same, but the results are close. I totally trust the design and build quality of the device, and I am not at all nervous about having all that power running through it. I know what 4,000 watts can do. One marginal connection can make for a bad day. It runs cool, it's pretty efficient, and it has a lot of headroom to handle surges without breaking a sweat.

I have mixed feelings about the whole AC vs DC coupling issue. If I was designing a fully off grid system, I think I would still use BOTH. Use enough AC coupled microinverters to supply all of your sun up power needs, AND install enough DC charge controller coupled solar to supply all of your night time energy needs. That way you get the best efficiency at all times. Since I am staying grid tied for the foreseeable future, I lean a bit towards the AC coupling as it easily exports all the extra solar once the battery is full. But when off grid, if all the loads are supplied, and the battery is full, you really just have to curtail off the power, or run dump loads.

On paper, the Sol-Ark looks great. But I am just not a fan boy. The 12K inverter section seems a bit on the weak side, with no real headroom over it's rating, on each leg of the split phase. I have not seen anyone test their new 15K under demanding loads yet. Did they address the short term overload issues? The 12K also had some limitations on AC coupling, and it seems to need a fair bit of DC coupled solar to properly work. At the time I was adding my battery storage, that was a serious problem as I still have just the AC coupling.

I almost went with an OutBack Radian. It is a very good system. The one thing that kind of scared me off was the grid and output AC connections are spring/lever terminals. I prefer the hefty screw clamp terminals in the Schneider.

So my bottom line... As imperfect as the Schneider XW-Pro is, I am now quite comfortable with it and it's limitations. And the fact that SunPower chose to stuff an XW-Pro inside of their SunVault battery system, certainly shows that a premium solar company is willing to trust it as well. But they also had to program their own controller to make it work properly. Come on Schneider, you really should add these controls for AC coupled charging and grid zero inverting with only AC coupling.

My Sunny TriPower has spring loaded AC terminals (and screw terminal blocks for PV.)
I think the spring terminals may actually ensure proper clamping force, eliminating a common failure mode of screw terminals that loosen.

There are some inverter features controllable with industry standard SunSpec commands, such as mentioned in this manual:


No Wikipedia page yet (shows up as a reference of one other page).

SunSpec Modbus:


This may provide a standard protocol for control of many brands. Not sure it is in the smaller residential inverters, but I think plan is for all to be controllable.

realpinochet said:

Well maybe but I've see three other users two are off grid homesteading and they both had issues with firmware, stacking, the gateways etc and schneider was totally useless.

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A friend is off grid and has been fighting a Growatt firmware upgrade for months. Plenty of examples of similar issues with various manufacturers if you look hard enough.

Stacking issues... are you referring to the XW-Pro product or the SW? I have seen one user with four XW-Pro's stacked off-grid and reporting no issues.

In general, the advantage of Schneider is that the product lines are well established and firmware updates should generally not be ground breaking, necessary, etc., and that support does know what they know. (Speaking from direct experience with other product lines.)

Shimmy said:

A friend is off grid and has been fighting a Growatt firmware upgrade for months. Plenty of examples of similar issues with various manufacturers if you look hard enough.

Stacking issues... are you referring to the XW-Pro product or the SW? I have seen one user with four XW-Pro's stacked off-grid and reporting no issues.

In general, the advantage of Schneider is that the product lines are well established and firmware updates should generally not be ground breaking, necessary, etc., and that support does know what they know. (Speaking from direct experience with other product lines.)

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I think his was xp+ not the pro model.

Off grid with two stacked XW6848+. All diy. 6 years with no issues with inverters or system function. I did have a MPPT 60/150 cc fail which schneider replaced under warranty. Also had a firmware update failure (my fault) and brick a unit. Was able to recover from that using the configuration tool. Thanks to a software update that can now be done through the Insight gateway.

If you can register with schneider as an installer or technician you'll find it easier to get through to technical support.

If I was to do it again I'd probably still use schneider or outback gear. Maybe more $ upfront but living off grid and having to support some large loads (welders, machine tools and AC) I consider the extra cost as an investment in reliability and life expectancy. Something that I am willing to pay for.

Maybe some of less expensive AIOs will prove to have good reliability and support over time. I think that still remains to be seen.

YMMV, Just my $.02, etc.

Mjs said:

Off grid with two stacked XW6848+. All diy. 6 years with no issues with inverters or system function. I did have a MPPT 60/150 cc fail which schneider replaced under warranty. Also had a firmware update failure (my fault) and brick a unit. Was able to recover from that using the configuration tool. Thanks to a software update that can now be done through the Insight gateway.

If you can register with schneider as an installer or technician you'll find it easier to get through to technical support.

If I was to do it again I'd probably still use schneider or outback gear. Maybe more $ upfront but living off grid and having to support some large loads (welders, machine tools and AC) I consider the extra cost as an investment in reliability and life expectancy. Something that I am willing to pay for.

Maybe some of less expensive AIOs will prove to have good reliability and support over time. I think that still remains to be seen.

YMMV, Just my $.02, etc.

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This is part of my longer term choice for a new totally off grid home I am building, the WX6848 type unit over an LV6548 type unit at half the cost. I am well capable of handling setup and running of either, but the WAF has to be 100%....if she hits a switch the light had better come on.

Mjs said:

Off grid with two stacked XW6848+. All diy. 6 years with no issues with inverters or system function. I did have a MPPT 60/150 cc fail which schneider replaced under warranty. Also had a firmware update failure (my fault) and brick a unit. Was able to recover from that using the configuration tool. Thanks to a software update that can now be done through the Insight gateway.

If you can register with schneider as an installer or technician you'll find it easier to get through to technical support.

If I was to do it again I'd probably still use schneider or outback gear. Maybe more $ upfront but living off grid and having to support some large loads (welders, machine tools and AC) I consider the extra cost as an investment in reliability and life expectancy. Something that I am willing to pay for.

Maybe some of less expensive AIOs will prove to have good reliability and support over time. I think that still remains to be seen.

YMMV, Just my $.02, etc.

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Can you elaborate more on your setup; can you take some pics maybe? Are you using their pdp panels? I want to go this route with either two maybe even three 6848's or perhaps outback radians ..but one thing that really discourages me is that they really gouge you for the add-ons to make it all work. If I spend 4k for a inverter it should come with the simple metal box with some breakers and a buss bar in it if that's what's needed. If the inverter doesn't have a way to program it built in and I have to use a add on like the gateway etc that should be consider part of the deal. Lets face it, a cheap router with the software to make the system work isn't that expensive for them nor is a metal box "pdp" with some breakers in it. That's just my opinion not trying to flame. The mini pdp was 1k and the pdp for two was almost 2k..for a metal box. What do you use if you want three inverters etc? I'm curious if people are using other ways to hook these all up cheaper but still be safe, UL and NEC compliant to pass inspections if necessary. Maybe one of those QO panels?

In some circumstances QO can be used for DC.

I use QO for AC, busbars or Polaris connectors for high current splices (AC or DC), DIN rail in a box for PV fuses or breakers and AC relays.
I have one battery string feeding four inverters. Copper busbar for negative, cables fan to two class-T fuse holders each fan to two inverters for positive.

My equipment is SMA not Schneider so a different set of comms, Ethernet router is one. In my system that is all optional for monitoring, except for initial configuration. Set it and forget it, look at the LEDs and display.

Hedges said:

In some circumstances QO can be used for DC.

I use QO for AC, busbars or Polaris connectors for high current splices (AC or DC), DIN rail in a box for PV fuses or breakers and AC relays.
I have one battery string feeding four inverters. Copper busbar for negative, cables fan to two class-T fuse holders each fan to two inverters for positive.

My equipment is SMA not Schneider so a different set of comms, Ethernet router is one. In my system that is all optional for monitoring, except for initial configuration. Set it and forget it, look at the LEDs and display.

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Do you have any diagrams, pics of your layout when you put it all together? Not trying to be intrusive on these sorts of request..just trying to learn how people, regardless of system, are putting things together safely.

I still haven't done a system diagram. Really should, before I forget. But it keeps changing, as-built and improvements are still in my head.

This post shows how I split output of meter & main breaker between inverter and utility panel (previously inverter got power from panel.)


I have multiple interlocked panels, so just flipping breakers will restore direct grid power if inverters fail.

Diagram on data sheet shows the basic layout. Beyond that I have several breaker panels, some with interlocks. Also load-shed relays, as described in manual, necessary to avoid over-discharge of battery with only AC coupled PV.

realpinochet said:

Can you elaborate more on your setup; can you take some pics maybe? Are you using their pdp panels? I want to go this route with either two maybe even three 6848's or perhaps outback radians ..but one thing that really discourages me is that they really gouge you for the add-ons to make it all work. If I spend 4k for a inverter it should come with the simple metal box with some breakers and a buss bar in it if that's what's needed. If the inverter doesn't have a way to program it built in and I have to use a add on like the gateway etc that should be consider part of the deal. Lets face it, a cheap router with the software to make the system work isn't that expensive for them nor is a metal box "pdp" with some breakers in it. That's just my opinion not trying to flame. The mini pdp was 1k and the pdp for two was almost 2k..for a metal box. What do you use if you want three inverters etc? I'm curious if people are using other ways to hook these all up cheaper but still be safe, UL and NEC compliant to pass inspections if necessary. Maybe one of those QO panels?

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No PDP panels. I use standard electrical panels. The two inverter outputs are combined in a small panel with two 50-amp 2P breakers with the buss feeding the (existing) Main Panel. The generator output is also split into two breakers, one for each inverter. This was done to allow an inverter to be isolated if needed and to keep the current limits below the 60-amp rating of the XW internal transfer relay. Battery power is fed thru an old Xantrex breaker panel that also contains the CC output breakers. I used a piece of wireway below the CC for the PV breakers. Lately I've been using the small Midnight Solar small breaker boxes or even some of the cheap DIN boxes for my neighbor's systems.

Things to be aware of: for 120/240 breakers it is important to verify they are rated for reverse feed. Most smaller current ones are but worth checking on. With DIN breakers there are lots of low cost sellers. You have to be careful the breakers are rated for the use, DC and/or voltage. The Midnight breakers are good but also pays to verify DC and voltage rating.

Mjs said:

No PDP panels. I use standard electrical panels. The two inverter outputs are combined in a small panel with two 50-amp 2P breakers with the buss feeding the (existing) Main Panel. The generator output is also split into two breakers, one for each inverter. This was done to allow an inverter to be isolated if needed and to keep the current limits below the 60-amp rating of the XW internal transfer relay. Battery power is fed thru an old Xantrex breaker panel that also contains the CC output breakers. I used a piece of wireway below the CC for the PV breakers. Lately I've been using the small Midnight Solar small breaker boxes or even some of the cheap DIN boxes for my neighbor's systems.

Things to be aware of: for 120/240 breakers it is important to verify they are rated for reverse feed. Most smaller current ones are but worth checking on. With DIN breakers there are lots of low cost sellers. You have to be careful the breakers are rated for the use, DC and/or voltage. The Midnight breakers are good but also pays to verify DC and voltage rating.

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Very clean!

realpinochet said:

Very clean!

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Thanks. I'd lay it out differently if I was starting from scratch. But the house was built when we bought it and being Mexico there's lots of funky construction compared to construction in the states.

Mjs said:

The two inverter outputs are combined in a small panel with two 50-amp 2P breakers with the buss feeding the (existing) Main Panel. The generator output is also split into two breakers, one for each inverter. This was done to allow an inverter to be isolated if needed and to keep the current limits below the 60-amp rating of the XW internal transfer relay.

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Two branches in parallel, carrying current from grid to load? How well balanced are they?
I did that landing on two QO270 breakers and had 3:1 imbalance. Despite perfectly matched 60' lengths of 6 awg.
Replaced with two Schneider 2 pole 63A DIN rail in another box and landed on main lugs, which balances it within 10%.

Since I am still in Los Angeles County, I know the inspection is pretty picky. I used the small XW conduit box. It just ads a box on the bottom of the XW to enclose the DC connections. I only have a single inverter, but this box is set up to allow installing them side by side. The only thing inside this box is a small metal raceway to separate the Xanbus lines from the high power stuff.



It's the flat panel under the XW-Pro inverter. Under the inverter I have a small Square D breaker panel for the output side of the inverter. I currently don't have a simple way to bypass the XW. I was going to install a cam switch for that, but when I got it from Amazon, I just didn't trust it for the power. The grey outlet box on the right side of the XW conduit box is the plug to attach my generator to the AC2 input. While you might be able to come up with another box for the bottom, this thing was well worth the $100 or so as it has the correct screw holes to bolt up, fits the form factor nicely, has the Xanbus raceway, and it is properly vented for cooling air to get into the bottom of the XW inverter. My Class T battery fuse is in my battery cabinet, but there is enough room in the conduit box, so I do plan to add a pair of DC fuses in there. So the battery cables will be protected at both ends.

The larger box to the right of the inverter is my power meter setup. That is a DIN rail box I got off Amazon. If (when) I add a DC charge controller, I will get another box like that for the charge controller DC breakers.

I did look into the PDP or mini PDP and even the Midnight Solar connection boxes, but I just could not justify the cost for a box with a breaker in it. My seup is not as clean as it could be, but it is not bad.


This shot shows the vents and the knock out. I used the offset nipples for the AC side wiring. There is also a conduit going out the back of the conduit box. It goes through the wall to get the wires from the Enphase solar and the feed from the main breaker panel. I do sort of want to replace the small breaker panel with something a little bigger. I only have 4 backed up breakers feeding into the house. The left side 240 breaker is the solar, and the right side 240 breaker is the XW inverter. The backed up 120 volt loads are fed out of the middle breakers. It's 2 tandem breakers to get 4 circuits. The black cabinet is my original 360 amp hour battery cabinet with a 300 amp Anderson connecter for the DC cables out the top. I now have a second battery cabinet that I made much smaller in a Craftsman cabinet. Both battery banks are on wheels so I can yank the plug and roll it out. The batteries are not UL listed, so they are not supposed to be in my garage. Oops.

If this is the box you'd like to have bypass the inverter ...



Here's the QO generator input box I used:



8 positions, of which 4 are used for two feeds. Came as 100A & 30A, I changed to 70A & 70A.
The main lugs then go to my house. I've since replaced the unused generator input plug with an outlet and installed a 2-pole GFCI feeding it.

Hedges said:

Two branches in parallel, carrying current from grid to load? How well balanced are they?
I did that landing on two QO270 breakers and had 3:1 imbalance. Despite perfectly matched 60' lengths of 6 awg.
Replaced with two Schneider 2 pole 63A DIN rail in another box and landed on main lugs, which balances it within 10%.

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No grid here.

Inverter output is rarely close to equal as the master inverter will supply most of the current and slave inverter output is added to the supply for larger loads. The inverters do not try to split the load equally although it can get close under large loads.

Current doesn't need to be balanced anyway as long as the conductors are sized correctly for full system potential. Voltage is the critical factor. Voltage of each inverter is measured at the combination point and individually adjusted as part of the commissioning process. There is adjustment for this in the Conext configuration tool but not in the regular menu of the Insight Gateway. Although the Gateway gives you the ability to choose master/slave inverter settings you really need the configuration tool to do it properly.

The conductors and the XW internal transfer relay of one inverter will handle the full potential current of the 12kW genset so no issue there. If the system had a total supply potential greater then 60 amps an external transfer switch would be required due to the current limitation of the XW's internal xfer relay.

You are correct about keeping conductor lengths equal when using parallel conductors to split the current between multiple conductors. But that has to do with the fact the an individual conductor is not capable of carrying the full current without overheating. The NEC allows this for conductors over 1/0 size. I certainly don't miss having to wrestle 8 pieces of 500 mcm at a time.

OK, generator input being the only pass-through, and that below limit of a single relay, eliminates issue.

My SMA can have 2 in parallel for split-phase, 4 in parallel for single phase. Each watches its own current and could invert from battery, otherwise open relay if still too high. The 3 second 2x surge should accommodate timing differences, maybe for up to 3 in parallel but not maximum current of four.

You have to measure and tune XW to load share?
Sunny Island communicates, and probably both/all supply up to their maximum output in order to achieve target voltage on their terminals. I'm not sure if multiple would coordinate to share load equally, or one with lower wire resistance would max out first and limit, letting the other take up the rest. Also have option for one to work while the others sleep until called upon to carry some. But apparently in a split-phase setup the firmware lets the other phase sleep too; will need balancing transformer if I try that.

. "The 3 second 2x surge should accommodate timing differences..."
The relay doesn't have any surge capacity only its make or break rating of the contacts.

"You have to measure and tune XW to load share?"
The inverter sees its voltage at its internal terminal. And there can be minor variations in the voltage readings between different inverters. Ideally you want the voltages of each inverter to be exactly the same at the combination point. The configuration tool allows for small changes to the output voltage of each inverter to make this possible. Also accounts for any variation in wiring that might induce a bit of voltage drop. The communication allows the inverters to sync AC and control load sharing but cannot account for voltage differences at the combination point. While the voltages don't have to exactly match, the closer the better for system performance. You don't really want one inverter to fight the other trying to match voltage.