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What's The Best BMS? (Grrrr... ?)

I'm a newbie and already own an SBMS40 that I'll be using for my next project, but this would've been a great resources as I was learning.

I view the BMS along the lines of an obligatory car analogy: while one could certainly drive a car by using a dashboard of knob, levers and switches to adjust air intake, gasoline injection rate, spark timing for each cylinder, etc, even the "power user" typically wants an intelligent system where they can just press the gas and the car goes vroom (discussions of manual-vs-automatic transmissions aside). Likewise, I would posit that few people really want to actively and manually "manage" their battery on a daily/hourly basis. They'd like a system that can be somewhat "set it and forget it", leveraging what modern technology can allow us to do and taking the human component out of the equation, where messing up can lead to very expensive and dangerous outcomes.
 
This thread is a bottomless pit. Normally I would avoid such a discussion but what the hell.

So I will pontificate with some philosophy.

Generally the more energy stored the more potentially dangerous the situation. Long live Samsung Note 7!

I have felt that if an automobile was first invented today it would be deemed a non-viable consumer product because if the fuel tank is ruptured in a collision the car might burst into flames cooking everyone inside and the corporate lawyers would say that is an unacceptable liability risk for the company.

Howard Hughes was once presented with a steam power automobile from one of his companies' proud engineers. He asked the engineer how he solved the steam reconstituting problem. After the demo Hughes picked up a heavy wrench and threw it into the side door which was part of the exhaust steam re-condensing radiator system to create recycled water for the steam generator bursting it and flooding the interior with hot steam. He walked away telling the engineer to send the prototype to be crushed up and disposed of.

There was an episode of the not so highly rated 'Star Trek, Enterprise' series where a non-Warp drive capable world they were visiting asked Capt. Archer to give them the Warp drive technology. Back on the ship there was a discussion by the crew that the people of that world had no idea of how dangerous dealing with anti-matter fuel used for warp drive.

Saying a 'real' BMS must have series pass disconnect for safety reasons then buying a cheap Alibaba BMS is an oxymoron.
 
Saying a 'real' BMS must have series pass disconnect for safety reasons then buying a cheap Alibaba BMS is an oxymoron.

Can you clarify two things about this statement to help me understand what your point:
  1. What or who is this comment in response to?
  2. Can you define/explain series pass disconnect, I'm not familiar with the term, and without context am not sure what its referring to.
 
Series pass disconnect is the two back to back power MOSFET's in many BMS's to disconnect the battery from inverter/charger. It is bi-directional which is why there is two back to back MOSFET to handle charge current and discharge current directions. The lower their series resistance the better to avoid BMS heating under higher current loads. Their only purpose is for safety to open the connection path to the battery. Normally they are always 'ON'. If they create too much heat and fail shorted they can create more of a safety issue then they are there to protecting against.

Using a starter solenoid relay to replace these is just dumb. Starter solenoid relays are intended for short momentary operation to run an engine starter, not for continuous operation. Sorry for being blunt. Only reasonable substitute relay is a latching high current relay which is what is used for a standby generator transfer switch but a generator transfer switch is very expensive and not rated for DC operation. DC operation relays, circuit breakers, or switches are more expensive because switching high current DC is more likely to 'weld' contacts together.

All the b.s. was to lead up to the last sentence.

One of the problems is there is no single definition of what a BMS is. In one of Will's video he implied an active balancer is not a real BMS. To a Tesla, with essentially individual charger control for every battery cell voltage level, all the Alibaba BMS's are not a real BMS.
 
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Series pass disconnect is the two back to back power MOSFET's in many BMS's to disconnect the battery from inverter/charger. It is bi-directional which is why there is two back to back MOSFET to handle charge current and discharge current directions. The lower their series resistance the better to avoid BMS heating under higher current loads. Their only purpose is for safety to open the connection path to the battery. Normally they are always 'ON'. If they create too much heat and fail shorted they can create more of a safety issue then they are there to protecting against.

Using a starter solenoid relay to replace these is just dumb. Starter solenoid relays are intended for short momentary operation to run an engine starter, not for continuous operation. Sorry for being blunt. Only reasonable substitute relay is a latching high current relay which is what is used for a standby generator transfer switch but a generator transfer switch is very expensive and not rated for DC operation. DC operation relays, circuit breakers, or switches are more expensive because switching high current DC is more likely to 'weld' contacts together.

All the b.s. was to lead up to the last sentence.

I appreciate the perspective and explanation, thanks for sharing it and for clarifying. I think you make some good points, that probably deserve more attention/discussion on this forum. The robustness of the cheap commodity BMS' sold on Alibaba and elsewhere is often questionable at best, and the current ratings seem often unrealistic. On the other hand it many people use them (apparently) without issue.

I'm not sure that it follows that a high current latching relay is the only proper solution. But I think that you are right that the protection system needs to be properly and safely designed to handle the continuous currents they will encounter (with some safety margin). And be rated for DC and the proper voltage range for the application. Whether or not FET based BMS are up to the task and/or where specifically the limit should be is over my head, but I certainly have more trust in more robust topologies.

One of the problems is there is no single definition of what a BMS is. In one of Will's video he implied an active balancer is not a real BMS. To a Tesla, with essentially individual charger control for every battery cell voltage level, all the Alibaba BMS's are not a real BMS.

I agree 'BMS' is a somewhat nebulous term.
I also agree with Will here. I don't think an active balancer meets the definition or purpose of a Battery Management System.

There is naturally some vagueness and subjectivity as to where to draw the line on what is and isn't a BMS, but I think an active balancer squarely falls on the 'clearly not a BMS' side of the line. An active balancer performs one function cell balancing. It could be a component of a battery management system, but not one on its own. It doesn't manage the battery or charge/discharge, and can't act to protect the battery or the system.

I don't think the Tesla analogy works in this context either. An EV BMS, a cheap aliexpress BMS,and a smartphone BMS are certainly very different in terms of scope, capability, and sophistication. But they all perform the same broad function-- battery management and protection. As far as I understand (having never personally used or owned one), an active balancer isn't designed for or capable of performing this function. They are a single purpose item (as reflected by their name).

A BMS in my opinion is not defined by its sophistication, but by its function. A BMS for a cheap device with a small lithium battery pack needs to be small and low cost, a BMS for an expensive high power EV obviously needs (and can justify the cost of) a much more sophisticated, robust, and expensive BMS. Things like E-bikes, small to medium off-grid solar battery banks, etc, will fall somewhere in between. In other words the battery management system will naturally be proportional to (1) the cost of the system (2) the size/power/importance of the system.

This is my 2c at least, and that might be a little overpriced ;)
 
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For the broadest generic use cases, MOSFET switches are the best solution. But do it right. Generating more then about 5 to 8 watts of heat without significantly large heat sink compromises the safety feature the MOSFET switches are there for.

For much of the cheap Chinese equipment, safety is not a significant priority requirement. Is $20 to $40 more for BMS worth reducing risk of destroying your batteries or worse? If one of them shorts outs because it was baked to death you will not know until it is too late.
 
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When ppl ask me I first ask them WHAT they mean by a BMS:

1. if its just going to be a SET-N-FORGET and used mostly for High and Low voltage cutoff I recommend the DALY series. I always tell them if they need 100A order 150A, ....

2. if its going to be used to MONITOR parameters and for mostly for High and Low voltage cutoff - then I tell them to get one of the newer DALY's with Bluetooth and WiFi ...

3. If they like to program and monitor every parameter under the sun and have the system grow with them then I recommend CHARGERY followed closely by ELECTRODACUS.

DALY is sort of the JEEP of BMS
Chargery and Electrodacus are the BMW and Audi ...

It all depends on what the enduser is wanting to do -- and spend ...
 
For the broadest generic use cases, MOSFET switches are the best solution. But do it right. Generating more then about 5 to 8 watts of heat without significantly large heat sink compromises the safety feature the MOSFET switches are there for.

For much of the cheap Chinese equipment, safety is not a significant priority requirement. Is $20 to $40 more for BMS worth reducing risk of destroying your batteries or worse? If one of them shorts outs because it was baked to death you will not know until it is too late.

Speaking purely as a Noob, I've come hear to learn and have taken a leap by already purchasing cells from Xuba. I have a back ground in IT and racing and fully understand buying good stuff, but sometimes budget gets in the way, sometimes the extreme top of the line doesn't fit the parameters. Does a $25 random BMS scare me, yes! So, $20 to $40 more than what? What brands build a better BMS and why?

"No I can't recommend a BMS, but I can discuss setting up for road racing and dirt"- Someone always knows something you don't
 
When ppl ask me I first ask them WHAT they mean by a BMS:

1. if its just going to be a SET-N-FORGET and used mostly for High and Low voltage cutoff I recommend the DALY series. I always tell them if they need 100A order 150A, ....

2. if its going to be used to MONITOR parameters and for mostly for High and Low voltage cutoff - then I tell them to get one of the newer DALY's with Bluetooth and WiFi ...

3. If they like to program and monitor every parameter under the sun and have the system grow with them then I recommend CHARGERY followed closely by ELECTRODACUS.

DALY is sort of the JEEP of BMS
Chargery and Electrodacus are the BMW and Audi ...

It all depends on what the enduser is wanting to do -- and spend ...

Are these all OSHA and Pecos County VFD approved? ;) See, I've been studying...
 
Are these all OSHA and Pecos County VFD approved? ;) See, I've been studying...
I honestly don't think a building inspector from a county would even know what a BMS is. Where do you think OSHA applies? UL probably doesn't apply because the BMS doesnt connect directly to the electrical syste where UL typically applies. I share the humorous opinion with @ghostwriter66 about the question.
 
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Yeah, I think we all agree that there is a ton of info contained within countless forum threads, but it's difficult to sort through or search, especially for newbies. We did conceive of the forum wiki as a pool of knowledge, extracted from threads, and I think this BMS task aligns better with that format.


It looks like we have a lot of interest in this topic and lots of members willing to contribute, which is very nice to see. After all we are doing this principally for other forum members present and future, which is really quite a philanthropic thing to do. Go us! ;)

I've dropped the ball on the wiki initiative, let me refresh my knowledge and I'll come up with a plan - a little mini-project, if you will.

I do hope we can all see that this thread, like so many others, quickly 'deteriorated' into a general Q&A about BMS's ... such is the hunger for BMS knowledge and advice.
You are asking for other people's input, which is great. Except for two things...
Cost and knowledge.

Cost should be obvious- unless you are a major player in the field of experimenting the heck out of these systems, few here would want to spend huge money on ALL of the possible BMS modules out there and test their capability. That would almost take industrial kind of capabilities.

So for that, I would suggest a "group" set of data input. Based on reading this thread, there are a ton of different BMS modules already in use- I have a cheap 4S LiFePO4 unit that I plan on using- and would be happy to provide input on it. So instead of a single effort to test, how about a group testing?

Knowledge is a little different- and by this, I'm NOT talking about how they work, what they do, features, etc etc etc. What I mean is a testing procedure that everyone can use. How should it be charged, how should it be monitored, how should it be discharged, etc. If we all used the same procedure (as best we can), then the group data will be comparable with each other.

In terms of the common data base that someone proposed- there are at least basic spreadsheets that can be shared. OR the keeper of the wiki just ends up being the repository of the data, and they keep up on the page.

IMHO, once all of that data starts to be put together, including features that systems have- people will then have a better understanding of what they are building, and therefore what kind of BMS they want.

In summary- the proposal is a group "test", using a defined testing procedure (as best we can). Then all of that being compiled into a single source.
 
I honestly don't think a building inspector from a county would even know what a BMS is. Where do you think OSHA applies? UL probably doesn't apply because the BMS doesnt connect directly to the electrical syste where UL typically applies. I share the humorous opinion with @ghostwriter66 about the question.

@Ampster,

I read this from @ghostwriter66 which I found very funny. It was a purely a sidebar from it and in jest! But I do appreciate her wisdom and the input she gives!

https://diysolarforum.com/threads/so-don’t-quote-me-–-but-epsolar-can-be-pushed-to-150.7064/
 
After much reading I had come to the conclusion that the ANT might be a good middle of the road choice since Over Kill Solar doesn't offer anything 8s. But then all the reviews say that ICGOGOGO is NO NO NO.

Holding pattern continues... Is it too early for boubon? :rolleyes:
 
After much reading I had come to the conclusion that the ANT might be a good middle of the road choice since Over Kill Solar doesn't offer anything 8s. But then all the reviews say that ICGOGOGO is NO NO NO.

Holding pattern continues... Is it too early for boubon? :rolleyes:

Couple relevant tidbits:
  1. There are 8S cousins to the JBD-SP04S020 (which is the BMS sold by Overkill Solar and others) available on aliexpress and elsewhere.
  2. Overkill Solar stated on amazon that they have already ordered (and will soon sell) an 8S version of the BMS. Might be worth the wait.
  3. The Ant BMS is sold by sellers other than ICGOGOGO, if you search around. Here is one (nevermind, out of stock)
  4. Yes its too early for bourbon, now tequila on the other hand... never too early
 
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Couple relevant tidbits:
  1. There are 8S cousins to the JBD-SP04S020 (which is the BMS sold by Overkill Solar and others) available on aliexpress and elsewhere.
  2. Overkill Solar stated on amazon that they have already ordered (and will soon sell) an 8S version of the BMS. Might be worth the wait.
  3. The Ant BMS is sold by sellers other than ICGOGOGO, if you search around. Here is one (nevermind, out of stock)
  4. Yes its too early for bourbon, now tequila on the other hand... never too early

Good I didn't see this earlier... tequila works too... :cool:

I've seen what look like cousins... but without review of product or seller I'm hesitant. I thought there was an issue with the 8s overkill tried...
 
I've seen what look like cousins... but without review of product or seller I'm hesitant. I thought there was an issue with the 8s overkill tried...

You might be right its not something I've payed much attention to, I'm just reporting what I read in the amazon Q/A section.

Do you remember what the supposed issue was, what specific BMS they were talking about, or where you heard about it?
 
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You might be right its not something I've payed much attention to, I'm just reporting what I read in the amazon Q/A section.

Do you remember what the supposed issue was, what specific BMS they were talking about, or where you heard about it?

I found it... possibly wiring mistake... but seems to be on hold

 
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