Bonded Generator, Hybrid inverter, Fully off grid, one ground rod. How to handle the neutral ground bonding in the panel?

[gimiq]

Thanks for all the info. Will leave as is for now with the new setting and see how it goes like you say.

 

[gimiq]

Thanks again for the info. Yep will see how it goes this winter and re consider the situation based on how it goes.

 

[Bluedog225]

You mentioned getting a victron. In addition to the bonding solution, I recall that the Quattro may handle “dirty” power well.

 

[gimiq]

nice! will look into it further. Will probably go do down the victron route. Back to the old buy cheap, buy twice eh

 

[sunshine_eggo]

The victrons are extremely tolerant of dirty power. When power is absurdly dirty, they have additional settings to make them even more tolerant.

MultiPlus Generator FAQ [Victron Energy]

www.victronenergy.com

I run a cheap Harbor Freight Predator 3850W generator... ±2Hz and ±5V split phase 120/240V. I got what I paid for... about $450.

Quattros have never had any issue at all; however, when passing through generator power, I have an electric blanket that refuses to work, but it works great on the Quattros inverter. Suspect the timers in the controllers need better than ±2Hz.

As much of a Fictron fanboi as I am, given the functional installation, I'd consider replacing genny with a cheap generator or getting a chargeverter first.

 

[gimiq]

@sunshine_eggo iooks like a inverter generator? running on petrol I presume. Yeah for some reason back when I bought this diesel one I was thinking diesel would be more reliable. But I was probably not fully aware of the difference between 1500 and 3000 rpm, nor was I aware that hyundai jiust labelled some generic generator. I will look into all of the above over the next year or two.

Seems it would be worth selling it and getting a pure sine wave generator at some point, I feel like I have heard people both suggest an inverter generator as suitable and others say they were not right, I am assuming the people who say they are not suitable would refer to a much more expensive 1500rpm diesel as being more appropriate, but, they are just out of the price bracket.

Given my budget might probably would of been better getting two of the cheaper ones, with one as a backup if I was worried about reliability. That still would of been cheaper than what paying of a sub par diesel.

The generators like all tools in europe all seem to be different to what you get over there. So will try and hunt down some equivalents over here in France.

is yours hooked up to ats? automatic start? Think thats one feature I would want whatever generator I get. The other concern was fuel tank size. The smaller ones have tiny tanks.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

@sunshine_eggo iooks like a inverter generator?

No. The cheaper non-inverter type:

https://www.harborfreight.com/collections/predator-generators/4375-watt-gas-powered-portable-generator-with-co-secure-technology-epa-59207.html

Looks like I got the wattage wrong... 3500W

running on petrol I presume.

Yes.

Yeah for some reason back when I bought this diesel one I was thinking diesel would be more reliable. But I was probably not fully aware of the difference between 1500 and 3000 rpm, nor was I aware that hyundai jiust labelled some generic generator. I will look into all of the above over the next year or two.

Bummer! 3000rpm is standard for 50Hz... I wonder if it's generator is geared 2:1 to the engine to get to 3000rpm.

Seems it would be worth selling it and getting a pure sine wave generator at some point,

Generators produce a pure sine wave... it's just a bit dirty due to slight variations in engine speed and power pulses. The REALLY clean power is produced by an inverter generator.

This is a somewhat equivalent inverter generator:

https://www.harborfreight.com/collections/predator-generators/3500-watt-super-quiet-inverter-generator-with-co-secure-technology-59137.html

except it's only 120VAC and significantly more cost.

An inverter generator tends to be more efficient as it runs the engine at an optimal rpm for the given power requirement and then converts that variable output into consistent clean AC output power.

I feel like I have heard people both suggest an inverter generator as suitable and others say they were not right, I am assuming the people who say they are not suitable would refer to a much more expensive 1500rpm diesel as being more appropriate, but, they are just out of the price bracket.

For your particular inverter/charger, an inverter generator is needed. It needs very clean AC input power comparable to a good grid connection.

Given my budget might probably would of been better getting two of the cheaper ones, with one as a backup if I was worried about reliability. That still would of been cheaper than what paying of a sub par diesel.

I'm all about backups. I have three generators...

The final system will include a dual fuel (petrol, propane) non-inverter unit that can be used for auto-start.

The generators like all tools in europe all seem to be different to what you get over there. So will try and hunt down some equivalents over here in France.

is yours hooked up to ats? automatic start? Think thats one feature I would want whatever generator I get. The other concern was fuel tank size. The smaller ones have tiny tanks.

Not yet. purely off-grid and only there 1-2 times/month.

 

[gimiq]

ok so ended up getting the MultiPlus-11 48/5000/70-50. There was a flash sale and got it for under 900 euros. Thought it was a con at first when i saw the price but it seems legit. checked the vat numbers and made sure they actually have a building where they claim to do. .

will see how it plays with the generator and consider selling the generator if it still isn't playing nice.

guess I will need to get the cerbo gx and a solar mppt. Any advice on which victron mppt to get based on the panels I mentioned earlier and over panelling requirements. I guess eventually I could get another mppt and split the strings out for better performance. Sacking off the whole all in one concept for something that can be upgraded and extended piece meal with quality parts.

the epever will either be sold or used for some less important solar only toy projects.

I believe I am right in thinking the multiplus:

1. Can internally handle the NG bonding transfer (which has been stressing me out for some time)
2. will be able to better lock on to the generator power.

Thanks for the advice and if anyone is in the market for one in europe and wants the link to the site let me know and can post it up or DM you with it.

​

 

[sunshine_eggo]

In order to leave your array as-is, you're forced to get the 450/100 or 200. Make sure you're sitting before you check the price. The nice thing about these is they actually have multiple MPPT trackers allowing for greater flexibility in array configuration and true galvanic isolation, meaning it's physically impossible for a failure to connect your panels to your battery directly. This failure mode can happen in any non galvanically isolated controller, but it is exceedingly rare, especially with Victron.

They have a variety of charge currents available at 150 and 250Voc levels, but they would require rewiring your array.

I have the 250/100, and it's probably the most economical expanding your PV potential to 5800W on 48V system. Accepts up to 250Voc (must also include temp margin) and 70A PV input Isc.

1. Yes. It's a configurable software option. 1) can be completely unbonded in all modes or 2) bonded while inverting and unbonded in pass-through.
2. Yes.

 

[gimiq]

Make sure you're sitting before you check the price

Feel like that every time I check out at the supermarket these days.

Will do some research on it. Yeah I was looking at the 250/100 but found a decent price with for the 450/100 only being 50% more than the 250/100, it would be on order if I can wait for them to restock it. Happy to switch up the array configuration if needed. Its ground mounted so pretty easy to access

Will do some reading up on them both and have a think.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Feel like that every time I check out at the supermarket these days.

Will do some research on it. Yeah I was looking at the 250/100 but found a decent price with for the 450/100 only being 50% more than the 250/100, it would be on order if I can wait for them to restock it. Happy to switch up the array configuration if needed. Its ground mounted so pretty easy to access

Will do some reading up on them both and have a think.

For that price, I'd go for it! Good luck!

 

[Checkthisout]

The inverter in my inverter generator is going bad.

It's a simple mouse click with the victron to get it to accept dirty gen power.

"Accept Wide A/C" toggle in the settings.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

The inverter in my inverter generator is going bad.

It's a simple mouse click with the victron to get it to accept dirty gen power.

"Accept Wide A/C" toggle in the settings.

Yep, but that's the "standard" tolerance...

Big guns:
Disabling grid tab "UPS mode" also helps. When the inverter can relax how quickly it has to react to lost power, it gets even more tolerance.
Enabling "weak AC input" also helps... limits charge current to about 80% of specified.

 

[Checkthisout]

Yep, but that's the "standard" tolerance...

Big guns:
Disabling grid tab "UPS mode" also helps. When the inverter can relax how quickly it has to react to lost power, it gets even more tolerance.
Enabling "weak AC input" also helps... limits charge current to about 80% of specified.

My bad.

Yes, the setting is "weak" not "wide" and UPS mode is off.

 

[ULR]

This problem [multiple neutral/ground ties] is pervasive on this type of unit. There's a reason the Chargeverter exists.

Note that the Chargeverter is only rated for altitudes up to 1500 m / 4921 ft (See the specs on the last page of the install/operating manual.)

This may be important if you want your installation permitted or your fire insurance to remain valid.