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diy solar

Can Solar & Wind Fix Everything (e.g., Climate Change) with a battery break-through?

Change always comes with some discomfort and the switch to renewables
will be no exception.
I'm not so sure it will come with a lot of discomfort.

Using my amazing artistic skills I've put battery LCOE prices over an LCOE
table (not responsible for any vomiting that may occur).

In 2021 LFP was reported by NREL to be around $131/kWh for utility
scale. From the CATL data above, this year it should be about $77 this
year so the costs should roughly be half the current LCOE.
The DOE predicts it'll be $58 by 2030, which seems conservative.
1678997844170.png

Not shown in the table, but with the cost of gas going up, it's LCOE is up around 81 now. Solar and wind won't change much, they're about 45/46. So, the delta today between renewable and gas is 81-46 = 35, so if battery LCOEs were $35 we'd organically switch as it would be cheaper.

Currently, there's a crunch in lithium supply that caused the 2022 prices to go up, so in 2022 solar+batteries would be $180+45 = $225. That is just a little more expensive than nuclear.

With sodium batteries it goes to 46+75=121, so it becomes cheaper than coal or nuclear. The joker is the price of natural gas and what happens to natural gas subsidies, if the price of natural gas goes up quickly then solar with batteries will come faster. Natural gas was over 100 before fracking and it's very likely to tick back up in that direction.

You can see any increases are at best fractional and not 5x or magnitude changes.

Most of the current plans recognize we don't need actually need a lot of batteries today, that is we can ramp gas plants up/down as needed to backfill intermittency until battery prices fall more.

Update: I was digging more into the LCOEs for the battery prices and learned that it was based on a 4-hr time frame, probably for peaker plant replacement as they're very expensive. But, I don't believe that's enough storage...so take what's here with a grain of salt...will come back to it if I can find more data on it.
 
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@svetz More could be, would be, maybe.

In the meantime:


To understand what is really happening here, we have to look past the low-level green energy propaganda that is meant for the fluoride-addled normies to lap up and look to the higher-level propaganda that is intended to bring the New World Order middle management up to speed on the new power paradigm. As usual, there's no better place to turn for precisely that type of propaganda than the pages of Foreign Affairs, the journal of the Council on Foreign Relations. In a recent article on "The Green Upheaval," they plainly admit what the green energy push is really about: "Talk of a smooth transition to clean energy is fanciful: there is no way that the world can avoid major upheavals as it remakes the entire energy system, which is the lifeblood of the global economy and underpins the geopolitical order."

No, the green energy transition is not going to be a happy clappy cakewalk into a fantasy future, as the activists promise. And that particular rainbow will not lead to a multi-trillion-dollar pot of gold, as the Oxfordians promise. What it will do is radically upend the lives and livelihoods of every person on the planet by taking away the one thing that has done more than anything else in all of human history to empower the population to proclaim their independence from the oligarchs: access to cheap energy.
 
Your reference doesn't seem to be in sync with your message that climate change is a hoax ... the article clearly says:

These are not arguments to slow or abandon the energy transition. On the contrary, countries around the world must accelerate efforts to combat climate change.

As to how easy or hard it is to transition, it's a lot harder with people still thinking it's fake. The article also doesn't support in any way your claims that the Norwegian price hike is from renewables.
 
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Just as there are climate deniers, there are also people that are quite hysterical about climate change and also impossible to reason with.
Of course, I have not seen any here and these are the kind of terms that are open to individual interpretation.
 
Your reference doesn't seem to be in sync with your message that climate change is a hoax ... the article clearly says:



As to how easy or hard it is to transition, it's a lot harder with people still thinking it's fake. The article also doesn't support in any way your claims that the Norwegian price hike is from renewables.

That was not the target remark.

You made a remark that "green transition" is going to be easy.
I linked an article from the horses mouth stating that it will basically turn society upside down, in other words they are not even denying it themselves - stating it out right.

The rest of the points stand - there is absolutely no climate emergency. The entire thing is entirely made up by special interest to gain total control over the rest of the populace. The whole thing is based on flawed models, and most of corporate sponsored "science" has completely discredited itself, especially in the last 3 years. Carbon is not a pollutant but was chosen for the "Carbon Credit" system to enrich special interest while lowering everyone elses standard of living. Carbon Credits is a whole separate subject, but just like Anthropogenic Climate change is scam, one of the biggest ever created.

What's worse, is that environmental impact of all this "green tech" is outright catastrophic.

So, to answer the question of the thread of Can Wind and Solar fix everything if battery tech improves - the answer is a very clear and resounding NO.

We do not currently have the technology to make Solar (and even more so Wind) to offset even a tiny portion of energy generated by traditional means (nuclear/gas/oil/coal and i will group hydro here as well since the topic is on Solar and Wind).

Can this technology be developed in the future? Only God knows. When? Only God knows.

In the meantime it is lunacy to force renewables on society, which will send this society hundreds of years back due to insufficient energy. Can Solar complement existing tech in niche scenarios? Absolutely, 100% yes. Should it be subsidized in any way? Absolutely no. It should stand on its own merit.

The same lunacy is the push of EV's which are also completely and totally unsustainable with current battery tech and current grid and power generation capacity. Do EVs have their niche place? yes, absolutely 100% yes, but they should not be subsidized in any way. They, like renewables, should stand on their own, in a free market.

Here is a recap:









 
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Here is a recap:

Lifepowered.org is owned by the Texas Public Policy Foundation. Their (non secretive) purpose is to support oil and reject renewables.
Referencing a website that promotes fossil fuels on issues of renewable energy is about as f*ing stupid as one can get.

Nationalreview is also a website pushing conservative agendas and is also tied to fossil fuels. Once again, anyone posting links in a green energy discussion to such as source has the IQ of a dog.

The Instituteforenergyresearch.org was started by non other than Charles Koch you idiot. What the f*ck is wrong with you? Seriously, are you really that ignorant?
There you go again with that fake information website. And yes, I did check it and it took me less than a minute to find the fraud and misinformation.

We already busted that one. You are now recycling links.. are you that desperate?

Holy Crap Batman.. you actually posted a link that AGREES what what we're telling you. Seriously? That's comical.. you don't even read the garbage you post, you just read the headlines.

And this link confirms the arguments we've been making against your fake information. Kind of confused on this one.. why would you post links that show how wrong you've been?

And there you go again with your conspiracy mental illness stuff.

Please get help.. seriously.
 
You made a remark that "green transition" is going to be easy.
I think that's something you read into it; you'd have to link it up for me to know the context.

I don't know how easy or hard it will be, but from the LCOE numbers solar and wind have been less expensive than fossil fuels for years, that adding in a battery isn't an order of magnitude more expensive with existing tech, that it won't send us to the stone age to accomplish, and that it's something we need to do. It also is something that can be done over the next ~30 years.

The rest of the points stand - there is absolutely no climate emergency. ... The whole thing is based on flawed models
Unsubstantiated opinion with no facts from creditable sources to back it up; and overwhelming evidence to the contrary, see the recap for links.

So, to answer the question of the thread of Can Wind and Solar fix everything if battery tech improves - the answer is a very clear and resounding NO.
Agreed, even says so in the recap.

We do not currently have the technology to make Solar (and even more so Wind) to offset even a tiny portion of energy generated by traditional means
Unsubstantiated opinion with no facts from creditable sources to back it up; and overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

In the meantime it is lunacy to force renewables on society, which will send this society hundreds of years back due to insufficient energy.
Unsubstantiated opinion with no facts from creditable sources to back it up; and overwhelming evidence to the contrary. In fact, the evidence suggests we'll be in trouble if we don't switch.

Can Solar complement existing tech in niche scenarios? Absolutely, 100% yes. Should it be subsidized in any way? Absolutely no.
Can we remove the trillion spent on oil subsidies too?
In 2022, subsidies worldwide for fossil fuel consumption skyrocketed to more than USD 1 trillion ref
Elon Musk estimated it would only take 10 Trillion or so to replace fossil fuels, so moving those subsidies to renewables it would be paid for with just 10 years of oil subsidies, after that the subsidies could finally end and taxes could be lowered ; -)
(yeah we'll probably never get rid of oil subsidies, but at least they should go down at some point)

This is a quarter-truth at best mixed with a whole lot of lie. It is true some panels with rare metals (e.g., cadmium) are considered hazardous waste IF the amount is high enough; but those types of panels are not common. The average silicon solar panel is not toxic. But, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be properly recycled so the materials can be reused. Also, if properly recycled, even the hazardous ones are safe. It's not like we're talking about spent nuclear fuel being sequestered on the roof.

Next, you need to compare the harm against what it replaces. Oil spills that devastate coastlines. Coal that contains trace radioactivity that by itself isn't a big deal...but when you burn tons of it the place becomes more radioactive than a nuclear power plant. There's also the air pollution:

...40% of Americans—over 137 million people—are living in places with failing grades for unhealthy levels of particle pollution or ozone. This is 2.1 million more people breathing unhealthy air compared to last year’s report. Nearly 9 million more people were impacted by daily spikes in deadly particle pollution than reported last year. In the three years covered by this report, Americans experienced more days of “very unhealthy” and “hazardous” air quality than ever before in the two-decade history of “State of the Air." ref

(and I didn't even mention that pesky global warming)

The land use problem isn't as big of a deal as people like to make it out to be. If you do
some quick math you'll see if the U.S. roadways consumer 2.5x the space that would be
needed for the power we consume.

If we put that much asphalt down and took up that much space for cars, we can do it for
solar.

Doesn't even need to be on land, some places have put them over lakes. California is
talking about putting panels over aqueducts to minimize water loss ref.

To the right, the red dot represents what Elon Musk estimates is required. Be generous
and double it, yeah... still not that much.
total-solar-panels-to-fulfill-electricity-demands-of-united-statesjpg.jpeg
If you search for things on the web you can find whatever you want it to say. This particular site is a media site designed to instruct voters on how to think about issues and is funded by, among others, the Koch brothers who have a somewhat vested interest. The earlier links you provided from more reputable sites listed fossil fuel failures, mismanagement, and global warming.

Another Koch brothers media site with the sole purpose of instructing voters on how they want you to think about issues.
It was refuted a few posts back showing the data to be erroneous.

He's just a clickbait media consultant. He makes money getting people to click his links with outrageous conspiracy theories. He has no scientific background, but he does follow the PR playbook of discrediting the science. A lot of what the "experts" he has on the show say about the fallacies of the scientific process are in fact true (or at least partially true); but they apply to all science and it hasn't stopped us from putting men on the moon, selling microwave ovens, building nuclear reactors, polluting the atmosphere, etc. The process is what is, not perfect, but the best we have been able to come up with.

Nowhere in the article does say renewables are causing problems. What it says the outages are caused by are:
  • In October, Pacific Gas and Electric cut off power to homes across California to avoid starting forest fires.
  • had to impose rolling blackouts because it had failed to maintain sufficient reliable power from natural gas and nuclear plants, or pay in advance for enough guaranteed electricity imports from other states
  • didn’t want to spend the extra money to guarantee the additional electricity out of fears of raising California’s electricity prices
  • California’s anti-nuclear policies also contributed to the blackouts.
He does make an interesting point that climate change is affecting the viability of wind and solar in the state which therefore affects the economics and there are similar warnings in the IPCC. So, it's possible. But I'd be leery of calling such a small sample set as proof of change or that it's directly attributable to global warming. Unfortunately, his conclusion is nuclear is better isn't really good because as we know that technology isn't viable due to upcoming fuel limitations as was in both your recent link on materials and Sabine's video (that is it takes technology we don't have to sustain nuclear, but people are working on it. If it wasn't so expensive I'd be more for it.).
...
well shoot, @MurphyGuy posted before me and it looks like we're saying the same things so I'll just stop here after a proof-read.
 
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I think that's something you read into it; you'd have to link it up for me to know the context.

I don't know how easy or hard it will be, but from the LCOE numbers solar and wind have been less expensive than fossil fuels for years, that adding in a battery isn't an order of magnitude more expensive with existing tech, that it won't send us to the stone age to accomplish, and that it's something we need to do. It also is something that can be done over the next ~30 years.


Unsubstantiated opinion with no facts from creditable sources to back it up; and overwhelming evidence to the contrary, see the recap for links.


Agreed, even says so in the recap.


Unsubstantiated opinion with no facts from creditable sources to back it up; and overwhelming evidence to the contrary.


Unsubstantiated opinion with no facts from creditable sources to back it up; and overwhelming evidence to the contrary. In fact, the evidence suggests we'll be in trouble if we don't switch.


Can we remove the trillion spent on oil subsidies too?

Elon Musk estimated it would only take 10 Trillion or so to replace fossil fuels, so moving those subsidies to renewables it would be paid for with just 10 years of oil subsidies, after that the subsidies could finally end and taxes could be lowered ; -)
(yeah we'll probably never get rid of oil subsidies, but at least they should go down at some point)


This is a quarter-truth at best mixed with a whole lot of lie. It is true some panels with rare metals (e.g., cadmium) are considered hazardous waste IF the amount is high enough; but those types of panels are not common. The average silicon solar panel is not toxic. But, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be properly recycled so the materials can be reused.

Next, you need to compare the harm against what it replaces. Oil spills that devastate coastlines. Coal that contains trace radioactivity that by itself isn't a big deal...but when you burn tons of it the place becomes more radioactive than a nuclear power plant. There's also the air pollution:



(and I didn't even mention that pesky global warming)


The land use problem isn't as big of a deal as people like to make it out to be. If you do
some quick math you'll see if the U.S. roadways consumer 2.5x the space that would be
needed for the power we consume.

If we put that much asphalt down and took up that much space for cars, we can do it for
solar.

Doesn't even need to be on land, some places have put them over lakes. California is
talking about putting panels over aqueducts to minimize water loss ref.

To the right, the red dot represents what Elon Musk estimates is required. Be generous
and double it, yeah... still not that much.
total-solar-panels-to-fulfill-electricity-demands-of-united-statesjpg.jpeg

If you search for things on the web you can find whatever you want it to say. This particular site is a media site designed to instruct voters on how to think about issues and is funded by, among others, the Koch brothers who have a somewhat vested interest. The earlier links you provided from more reputable sites listed fossil fuel failures, mismanagement, and global warming.


Another Koch brothers media site with the sole purpose of instructing voters on how they want you to think about issues.
It was refuted a few posts back showing the data to be erroneous.


He's just a clickbait media consultant. He makes money getting people to click his links with outrageous conspiracy theories. He has no scientific background, but he does follow the PR playbook of discrediting the science. A lot of what the "experts" he has on the show say about the fallacies of the scientific process are in fact true (or at least partially true); but they apply to all science and it hasn't stopped us from putting men on the moon, selling microwave ovens, building nuclear reactors, polluting the atmosphere, etc. The process is what is, not perfect, but the best we have been able to come up with.


Nowhere in the article does say renewables are causing problems. What it says the outages are caused by are:
  • In October, Pacific Gas and Electric cut off power to homes across California to avoid starting forest fires.
  • had to impose rolling blackouts because it had failed to maintain sufficient reliable power from natural gas and nuclear plants, or pay in advance for enough guaranteed electricity imports from other states
  • didn’t want to spend the extra money to guarantee the additional electricity out of fears of raising California’s electricity prices
  • California’s anti-nuclear policies also contributed to the blackouts.
He does make an interesting point that climate change is affecting the viability of wind and solar in the state which therefore affects the economics and there are similar warnings in the IPCC. So, it's possible. But I'd be leery of calling such a small sample set as proof of change or that it's directly attributable to global warming. Unfortunately, his conclusion is nuclear is better isn't really good because as we know that technology isn't viable due to upcoming fuel limitations as was in both your recent link on materials and Sabine's video (that is it takes technology we don't have to sustain nuclear, but people are working on it. If it wasn't so expensive I'd be more for it.).
...
well shoot, @MurphyGuy posted before me and it looks like we're saying the same things so I'll just stop here after a proof-read.
Oh man.. the crap that comes from that guy just blows my mind. Stupid doesn't even begin to describe it.
 
@svetz

You keep saying the same thing over and over again, and you continue to ignore the elephant in the room - financial, environmental and social costs. This strawman is used often by "progressives" so its not suprising.

I can see that unless the "experts" regurgitate it for you are going to be incapable of critical thought. That's ok and not ok, because useful idiots often caused quite a bit of upheaval for society. But as i said, i am not going to convince you and you are not going to convince me.
The best example that anyone paying attention will relate to is that "the science" has been lying to us in the wide open for the last 3 years, which will (and already is) making people question both "the science" and all official sources. This is why they are losing credibility at warp speed and people are turning to independent researchers that you and Murphy are trying to discredit. But it does not matter - those capable of critical thought who are on the verge will get the message and spread it to like minded people.
 

I think that's something you read into it; you'd have to link it up for me to know the context.

I don't know how easy or hard it will be, but from the LCOE numbers solar and wind have been less expensive than fossil fuels for years, that adding in a battery isn't an order of magnitude more expensive with existing tech, that it won't send us to the stone age to accomplish, and that it's something we need to do. It also is something that can be done over the next ~30 years.


Unsubstantiated opinion with no facts from creditable sources to back it up; and overwhelming evidence to the contrary, see the recap for links.

Right, we are supposed to take the "truth" from the safe and effective crowd and the 6-foot and plexiglass will protect you from a virus crowd. Don't make me laugh.

Unsubstantiated opinion with no facts from creditable sources to back it up; and overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Yes safe and effective, and shut down anyone who disagrees. We have heard this all before.

Unsubstantiated opinion with no facts from creditable sources to back it up; and overwhelming evidence to the contrary. In fact, the evidence suggests we'll be in trouble if we don't switch.
Yes safe and effective, and shut down anyone who disagrees. We have heard this all before.

Can we remove the trillion spent on oil subsidies too?

Elon Musk estimated it would only take 10 Trillion or so to replace fossil fuels, so moving those subsidies to renewables it would be paid for with just 10 years of oil subsidies, after that the subsidies could finally end and taxes could be lowered ; -)
(yeah we'll probably never get rid of oil subsidies, but at least they should go down at some point)

Elon Musk is a super credible resource. Sure..... Just like Dr. Bill "Vaxxine" Gates.... i wonder where he got his Medical Degree from, LOL

This is a quarter-truth at best mixed with a whole lot of lie. It is true some panels with rare metals (e.g., cadmium) are considered hazardous waste IF the amount is high enough; but those types of panels are not common. The average silicon solar panel is not toxic. But, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be properly recycled so the materials can be reused. Also, if properly recycled, even the hazardous ones are safe. It's not like we're talking about spent nuclear fuel being sequestered on the roof.

Next, you need to compare the harm against what it replaces. Oil spills that devastate coastlines. Coal that contains trace radioactivity that by itself isn't a big deal...but when you burn tons of it the place becomes more radioactive than a nuclear power plant. There's also the air pollution:



(and I didn't even mention that pesky global warming)


The land use problem isn't as big of a deal as people like to make it out to be. If you do
some quick math you'll see if the U.S. roadways consumer 2.5x the space that would be
needed for the power we consume.

If we put that much asphalt down and took up that much space for cars, we can do it for
solar.

Doesn't even need to be on land, some places have put them over lakes. California is
talking about putting panels over aqueducts to minimize water loss ref.

To the right, the red dot represents what Elon Musk estimates is required. Be generous
and double it, yeah... still not that much.
total-solar-panels-to-fulfill-electricity-demands-of-united-statesjpg.jpeg

If you search for things on the web you can find whatever you want it to say. This particular site is a media site designed to instruct voters on how to think about issues and is funded by, among others, the Koch brothers who have a somewhat vested interest. The earlier links you provided from more reputable sites listed fossil fuel failures, mismanagement, and global warming.

This is why critical thought is important. And it will not be on your side with anyone capable of it. As i said, 3 years ago I would probably give you benefit of a doubt, but in 2023 after the entire establishment has been shown to be corrupt to the core only a shill or an idiot would believe the narrative. Or someone refusing to admit that they have been had. Which one are you?

Another Koch brothers media site with the sole purpose of instructing voters on how they want you to think about issues.
It was refuted a few posts back showing the data to be erroneous.


He's just a clickbait media consultant. He makes money getting people to click his links with outrageous conspiracy theories. He has no scientific background, but he does follow the PR playbook of discrediting the science. A lot of what the "experts" he has on the show say about the fallacies of the scientific process are in fact true (or at least partially true); but they apply to all science and it hasn't stopped us from putting men on the moon, selling microwave ovens, building nuclear reactors, polluting the atmosphere, etc. The process is what is, not perfect, but the best we have been able to come up with.
Ah yes. Unless it comes from New York Times, CNN or Fox News its a "conspeeracy theeory"
Conspiracy theory - a term invented by the powers that be to discredit you when you are right over the target.
In 2023 alone a lot of "conspiracy theories" have already to be proven spot on and then there is the "hunter biden and twitter files"



Nowhere in the article does say renewables are causing problems. What it says the outages are caused by are:
  • In October, Pacific Gas and Electric cut off power to homes across California to avoid starting forest fires.
  • had to impose rolling blackouts because it had failed to maintain sufficient reliable power from natural gas and nuclear plants, or pay in advance for enough guaranteed electricity imports from other states
  • didn’t want to spend the extra money to guarantee the additional electricity out of fears of raising California’s electricity prices
  • California’s anti-nuclear policies also contributed to the blackouts.
You are a pro at selective reading! Focus on the forest and not the trees.
 
This is why critical thought is important. And it will not be on your side with anyone capable of it. As i said, 3 years ago I would probably give you benefit of a doubt, but in 2023 after the entire establishment has been shown to be corrupt to the core only a shill or an idiot would believe the narrative. Or someone refusing to admit that they have been had. Which one are you?
Lets take a look at critical thinking.
You use a power source, created by science, to turn on a device, created by science, to connect to a network, created by science, to then log onto a website, also created by science, to then proclaim you don't believe the science.
And when you need medical attention, you will run to the nearest hospital and beg the doctors to use all their science to save you.. that is, the science you don't believe.
 
You keep saying the same thing over and over again
Back at yah! The big difference is I provide proof from reputable sources.
I can see that unless the "experts" regurgitate it for you are going to be incapable of critical thought.
I don't insult you, please don't insult me.

The best example that anyone paying attention will relate to is that "the science" has been lying to us in the wide open for the last 3 years, which will (and already is) making people question both "the science" and all official sources.
Another statement, oft repeated, with nothing to back it up.

Right, we are supposed to take the "truth" from the safe and effective crowd
No, we should listen to all points of view, weigh the evidence and come to our own conclusions. If you don't post any actual proof you're just posting personal opinions.

We have heard this all before.
That's emotional logic and doesn't mean anything. It provides no evidence or proof.

Yes safe and effective, and shut down anyone who disagrees. We have heard this all before.
More emotional logic. Please bring facts to the discussion rather than clutter the thread with nonsense.

Elon Musk is a super credible resource.
It really doesn't make a difference who comes up with an idea, the question is can it survive the test of math and does it match the observations.
Character assassinations are not proof that they are wrong. Being a lobbyist means they are paid to convey a specific message. One shouldn't be ignored outright, the other should be taken with a healthy does of skepticism.

This is why critical thought is important. And it will not be on your side with anyone capable of it.
Back at yah!

...the entire establishment has been shown to be corrupt...
Personal opinion with no supporting evidence and a lot of evidence to the contrary.

...only a shill or an idiot would believe the narrative. Or someone refusing to admit that they have been had. Which one are you?
Back at yah!

Ah yes. Unless it comes from New York Times, CNN or Fox News its a "conspeeracy theeory"
I wouldn't give carte blanche to any of those sources, they all need to be vetted. But organizations/websites whose stated claim is to "provide the narrative to voters so they can make the right choice" that are funded by the same group that has a vested interest? Yes, I admit I ignore those.

You are a pro at selective reading! Focus on the forest and not the trees.
Back at yah! I guess this is a step up from before when you were accusing me of not reading anything. ; -)
 
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Resistive Heating is ~100% Efficient, how can Heat Pumps be better?​

TL;DR: It takes less energy to move heat than it does to convert energy directly into heat.

Saw some posts a bit back on heat pumps and given the counter-intuitive logic of the title wanted to show what an extraordinarily big deal they really are via the math.

Resistive Heating
As it's ~100% efficient, 1 kWh of electrical power becomes 1 kWh of heat. Easiest math ever!
1 kWh is 3412.14 BTUs.

Heat Pumps - how it works
Heat pumps use energy to move heat just as an air conditioner does, but in reverse. To move heat into the house, the refrigerant must boil at temperatures lower than the outside temperature. So, if the outside temperature is -30° and the heat pump refrigerant boils at 0°, it cannot move heat. So, the first rule of heat pumps is to make sure you get one that works for your location. A number of heat pumps have resistive heating for when the temperature dips too far as a backup, but obviously, at that point, there are no additional savings.

Heat Pump - Energy
The EER (Energy Efficiency Ratio) is the ratio of heat transfer (in BTU) to input electrical energy (in watts) at a given operating point. Let's take a fairly good EER of 13, that means you get 13 BTUs of heat moved per watt input. So, 1kWh is 1000 watts, so that's 13,000 BTUs.

Sidenote: Geothermal heat pumps are even better because they have higher working temperatures.

Comparison
1 kWh of resistive heating provided 3,412 BTUs of heat, and 1 kWh of heat pump heating yielded 13,000 BTUs. That's nearly a 4x improvement over resistive heating. This is why heat pumps are a big deal when compared to resistive heating.

Should you Switch now?
By replacing your resistive heating with a heat pump, you can reduce your electrical needs. What's the break-even point? A lot of that depends on how close to retirement your existing system is and how much heat you use. By examining your power bill you can get precise numbers.
The Energy Star website has a set of calculators for this and other systems that can help you determine if it's worthwhile to switch.

What Size would I need?
Let's take a generic case, a 1000 sqft home in Zone 3 (see map right).
Here are some estimates for how much heating per square foot of your home.

Zone 2 - 30-40
Zone 3/4 - 40-45
Zone 5 = 60

For example, in zone 3 to 4, which typically requires 40-45 BTU per square feet, you
can determine that a 1,000 square foot home would need a 40,000 to 45,000 BTU furnace.
That gives you the size of the heat pump and from that the cost.
IECCmap_Revised.jpg


Rebates!
The federal tax credit covers up to 30% of qualifying heat pumps' purchase and installation labor costs (up to $2,000). In addition to federal credits, your state or power utility may offer additional incentives to switch. Here's a link.

Ditch fossil fuels and add more solar to power a heat pump?
Via upcoming regulation changes, everyone will eventually have to move away from burning fossil fuels in order to avert the worst aspects of climate change. But it'll be a gradual change over the next 30 years where you simply won't be able to buy a gas furnace the next time you need to replace it. You should still be able to burn wood as it's a renewable fuel source, but that's just my opinion.

Does it make sense to convert now? It depends on the cost of fossil fuels. While solar PV is less expensive than electricity from fossil fuels, it's because ~64% of the energy in fossil fuels is wasted when converted into electricity (they also have a ton of overhead adding to the costs). But when you burn fossil fuels in your home for heat, there's only a 15% loss in a normal furnace (or less if you've invested in a high-efficiency furnace) so it's a lot more cost-effective as heat than electricity.
As you can see from the chart to the right, natural gas prices
fluctuate wildly, usually based on the crisis de jour (e.g., Russia
invading Ukraine).

Let's grab some numbers from an online calculator, at $0.15/kWh, it
comes up with an annual ducted heat pump cost of $651 for the year.

At the current $1.95/therm the natural gas furnace cost is $834. But gas isn't always that high, in 2019 it was around $0.63, which would bring the annual cost to $271.

So whether a heat pump is more economical than natural gas really depends on the price of gas and the incentives to move away from gas.
us-natural-gas-2022-08-21.png

That doesn't mean it will always be so, as gas prices go up or if there are other technology changes (e.g., perovskite solar panels, cheap new type types of nuclear energy) then that dynamic could change.

Update: You can also switch your electric resistive heating hot water tank to a heat pump ( DIY Video ) or buy a tank with it built in.
 
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Another lunacy subsidized by governments. You know it has no merit if it has to constantly be propped by taxpayer money.


These things suck in cold environments. Look around any HVAC forums to find out the truth.

TLDR

Homeowners who have bought homes with heat pumps already installed - or purchased new builds where pumps were part of the package - have told us about a litany of problems associated with the technology.


This is despite their overwhelming desire to do their bit to save the planet from self-destruction.

Some have got so fed up with them they have had them removed — or installed additional heating systems to step in when the pumps don't generate enough heat.

Many of the critics are knowledgeable. They include retired engineers and current installers of heat pumps.

Some believe the Government is now in danger of committing a misselling scandal to match that of the promotion of diesel cars in the early 2000s by the Labour government — even though diesel fuel was known to contain pollutants harmful to health.

One engineer told us: 'The nationwide promotion of heat pumps as replacements for gas boilers needs to be challenged.

Not just economically, but also on availability, reliability and functionality issues. It could easily turn out to be the next major government misselling scandal.'
 
Back at yah! The big difference is I provide proof from reputable sources.
Aha, the same ones that said its safe and effective. The same ones that lied just about anything in the last several years.

1. Russian Election Hoax
2. Hunter Biden Laptop
3. Safe and Effective Vaxx
4. Vaxx stops transmission
5. Vaxx doesnt stop transmission but reduces chance of x,y,z
6. Vaxx doesnt stop transmission, doesnt reduce chance of anything and doesnt cause issues
7. Vaxx doesnt do anything, can actively harm you, but take it anyways
8. 6 Feet rule and plexiglass will protect you from a Virus
9. The banking system is sound (2003,2008, 2023)
10. Jan 6 "Insurrection" (LOL, do these people even know what an insurrection is?)

Many many many others, too much to list but anyone paying attention sees.

Another statement, oft repeated, with nothing to back it up.
Already posted many links to back it up, you ignore inconvenient facts or outright dismiss because it doesnt come from the shill mass media.

No, we should listen to all points of view, weigh the evidence and come to our own conclusions. If you don't post any actual proof you're just posting personal opinions.
Already posted many links to back it up, you ignore inconvenient facts or outright dismiss because it doesnt come from the shill mass media.
Only officially approved message is the truth right?
That's emotional logic and doesn't mean anything. It provides no evidence or proof.
Posted plenty of proof for anyone capable of critical thought. The dots are so close, only shills, naïve (lets not use the word stupid) or people who refuse to admit they have been had have doubts at this stage.

More emotional logic. Please bring facts to the discussion rather than clutter the thread with nonsense.


It really doesn't make a difference who comes up with an idea, the question is can it survive the test of math and does it match the observations.
Character assassinations are not proof that they are wrong. Being a lobbyist means they are paid to convey a specific message. One shouldn't be ignored outright, the other should be taken with a healthy does of skepticism.


Back at yah!


Personal opinion with no supporting evidence and a lot of evidence to the contrary.


Back at yah!


I wouldn't give carte blanche to any of those sources, they all need to be vetted. But organizations/websites whose stated claim is to "provide the narrative to voters so they can make the right choice" that are funded by the same group that has a vested interest? Yes, I admit I ignore those.


Back at yah! I guess this is a step up from before when you were accusing me of not reading anything. ; -)

More and more strawmen and attempting to present BS data as legitimate (In your links) or just being intellectually dishonest by cherry picking what suites your narrative and ignoring what does not.
 
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EXAPAND READ ABOUT Soros
“At the Munich Security Conference in February, George Soros announced that the World Bank needed to seize control of climate change.

George Soros calls for World Bank to seize reins on climate change

Washington Times, Feb 23, 2023

George Soros, billionaire “philanthropist” — i.e., meddler of governments around the world — said in recent remarks to Munich Security Conference participants that financial institutions, particularly the World Bank, need to seize the climate change reins and use their positions of economic influence to push policy to save planet earth from degradation. And in the next breath, he said the president of the World Bank, David Malpass, “who was a climate denier, resigned yesterday.”
Read the tea leaves. This is the Soros way of saying that regulatory controls on human activities based on climate change arguments are rapidly moving from talk to action.
Read the writing on the wall. This is the next step of the Great Reset — the World Economic Forum’s vision for total top-down government-by-elites. This is the next step toward a One World Order, a New World Order, a Build Back Better strategy that ratcheted down freedoms under the years of COVID-19 clampdowns. This is the next step — the prearranged step, the previously announced step — for those in the higher echelons of global institutions to realize a long-held lust for worldwide communism and collectivism
“We must reorient our international financial institutions, particularly the World Bank, to focus on climate change,” Soros said.” https://rwmalonemd.substack.com/p/news-all-the-worlds-a-stage-for-soros

there is one of major problems in USA. This word:
‘philanthropist”

The USA is ~5% of the World population…. We were mostly white and christian. Out siders that want to destroy the USA from within use both of those things as weapons to attack very foundations of the USA. It has worked

Before Soros there was Jacob Schiff that more or less installed communism around the World in NYC and Russian over throw. Early 1900’s His operating base was NYC and why we jumped into McCathism in 1950s communism was trying take over. We sided with communist in WW2.

You-will never get your green deal without the ultra rich share of the wealth on it. You will never get affordable green with the present system they have installed. Soros has purchased politicians and law enforcement here and around the World. Most likely purchased the US military too. Soros is a figure head just like Schiff was in the late 1800’s-early 1900’s Era.

is jacob schiff kin to Politician adam schiff?

If the ultra rich and wealthy can re-coup investments then we will go green but not until. You can BANK on it.
 
[heatpumps] Another lunacy subsidized by governments.
Numbers in the math from the prior post look good to me.

Let's see what the article says about why people are upset with them... about the first half is a big emotional buildup (e.g., wasted print) about how fed up people are with them, but it doesn't offer any facts, numbers of returns and failures would have been nice. Lot's of government innuendo that is factless and no doubt just designed to push clicks.

Then finally it clearly states the owners' frustrations:
... heat pumps as replacements for gas boilers needs to be challenged. Not just 1) economically, but also on 2) availability, 3) reliability
1) The economics, as pointed out in my prior post depend on the price of gas and the source of electricity. So, it won't work for everyone.
2) This one is hilarious. If you're frustrated you can't get one, that's more in favor of them rather than against them.
3) There's no new technology, I'd guess someone has been buying cheap knockoffs rather than from reputable vendors that stand behind their warranties or as they say uncertified installers installed them. There's also no comparison with the failures from gas furnace installation, so really the article doesn't tell you anything useful other than some units failed and owners weren't happy. No duh. Same for owners that bought blenders that don't work. That doesn't mean blenders are bad.

Many of the critics are knowledgeable. They include retired engineers and current installers of heat pumps.
Do you have any links to them rather the clickbait article?

...even though diesel fuel was known to contain pollutants harmful to health.
It's not the diesel fuel that's the problem, it's the combustion conditions. I've yet to see anyone succeed at clean diesel and would be leery of anyone saying they'd figured it out; that would need extraordinary proof.
 
Already posted many links to back it up, you ignore inconvenient facts or outright dismiss because it doesnt come from the shill mass media.
Why anyone believes Corbett, a media consultant that makes money by saying outrageous things to get clicks, knows more than every climate scientist out clearly demonstrates he got his money's worth with his media degree.

Only officially approved message is the truth right?
Even when I went through that video you posted and broke each of their arguments and exposed the truth and the lie, rather than seriously considering any of it you just claimed I was wrong and all the references were wrong. That's why we have to agree to disagree.

But dude, don't be hypocritical. I look at what you say and consider it. I post math and explain with non-emotional reasons why I think the way I do. It's you that won't give any other viewpoint the time of day or consider any other viewpoint as possible.
 
@svetz Corbett is entirely member supported. Everything he posts is available for free.
What I like about him is that he dissects materials available directly from the horses mouth, just not widely publicized via the sellout media.
Additionally, once you turn on critical thought a lot of stuff makes sense, as i have been observing for many years myself by working in the industry (including USGOV projects). My personal journey down the rabbit's whole started way back in 2001, when i noticed that none of the propaganda they are feeding us makes any sense. At first i though it was entirely based on monetary enrichment for certain individuals, but eventually i understood that they already have all the money in the world, and all the power in the world, but to them its not enough - now they want to play God, a classic sociopathic trait for everyone (without exception) in high power.

So your attempts to smear him are exactly the same as Dinosaur Mainstream Media, and it is a typical tactic they employ (they employed the same tactic to Ron Paul when he ran for president in 2012).

As i said i am not going to change your mind and you wont change mine, and just like you discredit my links, i can discredit anything you post from official media narrative, and after the last 3 years, anyone with critical thinking ability will see that the entire establishment (including mainstream "science" is corrupt to the core, serves special interest, and essentially parrots anything they are told to parrot (Covid scam is a perfect example of it over the last 3 years).

As for your "math" - i said time and again, the entire "climate change/global warming" narrative is built upon false data. Just like the Covid scam was. GIGA - garbage in garbage out, and in case of the late narratives, they manufacture and massage data to make it suit their predetermined solution.

Haegelian dialectic at its best. Manufactured Problem, Manufactured Crisis that extracts a reaction, and Manufactured (predetermined way ahead) Solution (what the elites always wanted to begin with).
This is why we have been living under constant "emergency" - because it allowed these parasites to essentially cancel all written law. (And they keep extending the emergency - 911 emergency, covid emergency and now climate emergency, while they pretty much ignore it all and shit on our heads telling us its flowers. Its unfortunate that so many (including you) have been fooled by this.
 
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...Corbett is entirely member supported...
He gets money from his supporters and people that click on his videos. The more outrageous he is, the more money he makes. His educational background is in media, not science. Also, who are his members and do they have any agenda?

Oh! I'm entirely unfunded, so I'm less biased right? I'm sure you won't think so, but it points out why the argument is meaningless logically.

Everything he posts is available for free.
Everything I post is free too! I wonder if anyone has done a study on the effectiveness of propaganda you paid for? I bet it's more believable if you pay for it. Anyway, that's an argument that is ultimately meaningless. I'm calling these out as most of your arguments are like this, they just don't have meaningful information.

What I like about him is that he dissects materials available directly from the horses mouth, just not widely publicized via the sellout media.
That would be fine if not for the misguided lies and emotion embedded in the content.
BTW, Just that you include "the sellout media" in your sentence states your bias. Media is like saying "them", who the heck is that? There are countless media streams and they all biased in certain directions, some more so than others. Even the ones that try to be neutral still occasionally get it wrong or hype a crazy theory just for ratings.

Additionally, once you turn on critical thought a lot of stuff makes sense,
No, it's that once you succumb to the emotional part and get outraged enough you stop thinking long enough to be fooled by the lies. Strip all the emotion, hand-waving, mock outrage, innuendo out of his videos and they would only be a few minutes long and it would be obvious what the falsehoods are, the logic presented as it is is nothing more than a trap to guide you into his way of thinking.

Remember the bit about the IPCC conclusions are all fake because team 1 is ONLY allowed to consider climate change data (ergo they can't consider data that climate change might be fake)? He spends 20 minutes building up to the big reveal just so by the time you get there it's "obvious". But the premise is flawed because raw data is neutral, it doesn't say I'm for or against a topic. He was even kind enough to make it easy to debunk by stating what Team 1 left out (at the time I provided the table of contents of the IPCC report showing it did include those items).

As for your "math" - i said time and again, the entire "climate change/global warming" narrative is built upon false data.
There's no false data or narrative about the math provided. For example on the solar Vs. grid costs... those are things I went out and paid for. There's no third party giving me fake data - out of my pocket is as real as it gets and we can both use our real-life experiences to check other data we come across to see if smells suspicious. Pity you didn't even look at it. But why should you bother when you're sure beyond a shadow of doubt? Hmm, how about to point out where my obvious mistakes are - after all if my conclusion is incorrect there must have been a flaw that lead up to it. That's what would be involved in an actual discussion. Throwing meaningless links that offer no concrete information or worse links from tainted sources don't counter logic in this thread.

...Manufactured Crisis that extracts a reaction...
If you think every alarm is fake, won't you burn to death when the building is actually on fire?

You can't assume that everything official is fake. I'm not saying trust the government, I'm saying fact check it against solid facts you can trust. That's why understanding the numbers is important to me. I know what I can DIY solar for. I know what batteries cost. I know how much I pay for electricity. That's for example how I know solar is cheaper than the grid for me. It's how I can trust the LCOE numbers, they make sense when held up against my numbers.
 
@svetz Corbett is entirely member supported. Everything he posts is available for free.
Everything Faux News posts, CNN, MSNBC, the government, facebook, youtube, and twitter, is also free.

Maybe those critical thinking skills need a tune up?

What I like about him is that he dissects materials available directly from the horses mouth, just not widely publicized via the sellout media.
No, he doesn't do that. I checked his page on Iran and it contains false information about their nuclear program.

Additionally, once you turn on critical thought a lot of stuff makes sense, as i have been observing for many years myself by working in the industry (including USGOV projects).
Once you turn on critical thought? Hey genius, if you knew anything about critical thinking, you would know its not something you can turn on or off. It takes years of practice. You can reference your own statement about his posts being free as evidence that what you perceive as "critical thinking" is not even remotely close.

My personal journey down the rabbit's whole started way back in 2001, when i noticed that none of the propaganda they are feeding us makes any sense. At first i though it was entirely based on monetary enrichment for certain individuals, but eventually i understood that they already have all the money in the world, and all the power in the world, but to them its not enough - now they want to play God, a classic sociopathic trait for everyone (without exception) in high power.
None of the propaganda "they are feeding us".. Who is "they" specifically?

So your attempts to smear him are exactly the same as Dinosaur Mainstream Media, and it is a typical tactic they employ (they employed the same tactic to Ron Paul when he ran for president in 2012).
Nope, smearing him was as easy as doing EXACTLY what YOU asked me several times to do.. "Just go read his website" "Read his articles", "read the link i posted". So I went and read one of his articles dealing with subject matter that I happen to know something about.. and I found false and misleading information. Didn't even take me a full minute.

As i said i am not going to change your mind and you wont change mine, and just like you discredit my links, i can discredit anything you post from official media narrative, and after the last 3 years, anyone with critical thinking ability will see that the entire establishment (including mainstream "science" is corrupt to the core, serves special interest, and essentially parrots anything they are told to parrot (Covid scam is a perfect example of it over the last 3 years).
Your conspiracy garbage means you have a weak gullible mind, are easily influenced by others, and you seek comfort...

As for your "math" - i said time and again, the entire "climate change/global warming" narrative is built upon false data. Just like the Covid scam was. GIGA - garbage in garbage out, and in case of the late narratives, they manufacture and massage data to make it suit their predetermined solution.
Who is "they" again? Are these the same "they" with the Jewish Space Lasers?

Haegelian dialectic at its best. Manufactured Problem, Manufactured Crisis that extracts a reaction, and Manufactured (predetermined way ahead) Solution (what the elites always wanted to begin with).
This is why we have been living under constant "emergency" - because it allowed these parasites to essentially cancel all written law. (And they keep extending the emergency - 911 emergency, covid emergency and now climate emergency, while they pretty much ignore it all and shit on our heads telling us its flowers. Its unfortunate that so many (including you) have been fooled by this.
It's not the scientist that are the parasites, its you. Parasites are generally defined as smaller organisms that infect a larger host. Organized evolving society is the host, conspiracy nut jobs are the parasites.

Remember when I said that your conspiracy mental illness is going to cause problems for you in life? Well, there you go. You feel that elites are "shitting on your head and telling you its flowers".

I feel none of that. oh sure, there are things I don't agree with or like, but I don't go through life feeling like someone is taking advantage of me or "shitting on my head" like you.

Let me ask you a question.. You know that we have a lot of really bad parents in society right? You know, the kind of people that just should not have kids... so if you found 100 horrible parents, and asked them if they thought of themselves as good parents, what do you think they'd say?

Same goes for the conspiracy mental illness.. It takes a strong analytical mind to rationalize the world around us.. apparently that's not you. Conspiracy theorists are now being studied and the initial results are pointing to a mental health problem.

That mental health issue is already causing you harm if you think "you're being shit on".
 

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