diy solar

diy solar

DIY or Buy? Charging from generator on dark days or grid down. (48v system)

@timselectric Looks like max output 3050W at 120VAC in. Given efficiency, I'd guess that's the 120VAC, 28A input mentioned. Would be nice if it had a <20A input limit available, as 120V, 30A circuits are rare.

ETA: Ah, nice. Manual says it does have an output current selection, likely by 1A increments or better, though I don't see a specification.
 
It does, sort of.
100A max charging current for quick charging rates - adjustable from 0A-100A.
You'd have to do a single instance of Watt's Law to get in the ballpark and then experiment from there.
 
@timselectric Looks like max output 3050W at 120VAC in. Given efficiency, I'd guess that's the 120VAC, 28A input mentioned. Would be nice if it had a <20A input limit available, as 120V, 30A circuits are rare.

ETA: Ah, nice. Manual says it does have an output current selection, likely by 1A increments or better, though I don't see a specification.
Yes it is adjustable. It's a Voltronics inverter/charger board. With display in a new case.
 
AFAIK, all hybrid inverters (meaning grid-tie or off-grid capable) can run in a "grid support" mode, which will let you program in a max grid/generator input amperage. If you have one of these, then you're done. Set this as appropriate for your generator.

As @sunshine_eggo notes, it still can't charge and invert at the same time, but it will seamlessly switch from inverting to charging whenever loads are below what you permit it to draw from the generator.
My AIO can't do that, and from what I've read it's not as common as one would think/hope.

There's also the issue that many generators don't have the cleanest power, even inverter ones.
 
So to comment on the OP's overall scheme.. I'm doing it?!

I have experimented a bunch with cheap meanwell knockoff PSUs hooked directly to batteries and i currently have a pile of cheap PSUs mounted to a wall in my inverter closet which can do 55amps @ 48v, and i power these from a 3500w generator. I actually have a little more than that, but that's what's hooked to the generator.

With that setup, im able to run my electric clothes drier, which is 4500w, from a generator that could not run it, using my inverters/batteries to bridge the gap and i can do this on a cloudy 'no-solar' day because even though ~2600w of PSU is not 4500w of drier, i always have enough battery to get to the point that the drier hits temp and starts 'cycling' its heating element, at which point yes 2600w is more than enough on average.

So i fully agree with the intent of this thread and while my setup is ugly and probably inefficient it is totally possible to do it.


Oh, and im getting REAL close to trying it on the kW scale. I'm getting a little more comfortable that it's not a suicide mission. I WILL do it.
Appreciate the far more on topic reply!

Questions for you, what specific voltage are you running? 48V exactly? Are you charging the batteries while doing this? Have you had issues with the DC supplies supplying more amps than they can handle steady state (or are your supplies also CC so they self regulate)
Still reading through the flood of replies so sorry if I'm asking twice :)

And yeah, my two big things are doing this with as much of what I have already *if* possible (I feel like the people jumping to "just buy all this stuff, don't even bother" might be on the wrong subforum if not the wrong site ;) I say this is good sport, please do not flame :D ), and what the actual requirements are. If all of us could afford whole house setups with mult-day battery capacity and whole house generators I'm sure most of us would :D Some day "buy another AIO as a spare and use it as your charger too" might make sense, but not today. Even the new EG4 dedicated charger is a bit overkill for me *right now*. Plus no reviews and the manual is (as typical for Eg4) light on details such as exact charging rates (not just min-max)
 
Is your AIO capable of selling power to the grid as well as running as an off-grid? If not, then most or all such do not have grid-support option, which means a generator must supply the entire load plus any charge power. Grid support is predicated on the inverter being able to synchronize power output with the incoming power while inverting. This is needed for grid tie; for an off-grid only inverter it's added complexity usually sidestepped by a transfer relay.

BTW, "grid support" specifically may be a proprietary marketing name, so devices without that name may still have the relevant setting.

Any voltage regulated power supply will act as a CC/CV within its parameters. That means, voltage (hopefully) as specified on the nameplate, and amperage limited to nominal output. If you don't need full speed charge to max power, or can watch for hitting peak voltage, as long as the voltage is regulated to a safe level for your batteries it'll work. Once the batteries approach as full as the power supply can get them the current will drop off.

Whether the power supply will be happy running flat out for an extended time during bulk charge is another question. Devices sold as chargers should have thermal management to handle this. Same for anything sold as a general power supply. A "power supply for X device" however, has a somewhat higher chance of relying on average draw being low enough to get away with less thermal dissipation.
 
This is the charger: https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-chargeverter-battery-charger-48v-100a-5120w-output-240/120v-input

I prefer this approach over a more manual process as it simplifies (more idiot-proof) everything and allows for a single-cord connection to the portable generator.
This is sort of what I'm looking to do, just not at $400. Also, at a $400 pricepoint for just a charger I would also expect good efficiency, good adjustability (resolution of Amps) and ability to adjust "supply side" (set it by watts in). When I looked earlier no one had yet done a youtube/website review.
 
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Yes it is adjustable. It's a Voltronics inverter/charger board. With display in a new case.
Oh nice that someone knows the internals! :D Any idea as to just how adjustable it is? Basically, does it have 1A step in the lower ranges?
 
So I have 4x “48v 10a” power supplies, ostensibly 500w each. 3 of them are ‘fixed’ 48v with just a trim pot and wont go past 49.x volts, one is a 0-48 model which will go almost to 53v. Also have a 60v 7ish amp i run off my 12v system into the 48v sometimes, and 4x 100w 54.6v little charge cords. All this feeds into the same set of bus bars which is hooked to my 48v system.

The reason for the mix of voltages etc is because if you use a voltage you actually expect your pack to reach there is considerable variability of how much power is consumed and delivered between each side of things. The little 100w 54v units will never bring my system to 54 volts, so they stay ~100w for as long as they’re on. I usually use those to feed from the ~5kwh lifepo4 120v system in my Rv into my 48 house pack overnight to ‘shift cycles’ from the fla to the lifepo4, and i bought 4x 100w instead of a 400w because it let me experiment in 100w increments. Ive seen those as low as $8/ea on amazon. The 60v ~7a (~$30) is likewise ‘always’ 400w and runs off a 12v inverter hooked to my silly 12v bus of cars and tractors parked outside my house. ? Im essentially using voltages as a cheap hack for not buying things with adjustable current limiting.

The 49v psu’s (30-something $) may actually push the system to 49 and when hooked to my generator that’s ideal because i dont actually want my generator use to get ‘even more ridiculously inefficient’ by trying to actually charge my large FLA pack at FLA charging efficiencies, off gasoline. My thinking is that if you are using the power as you make it, you are not subjecting that power to an extra conversion/efficiency loss by actually trying to put it in your battery before you use it. It is just going on the 48v bus and ‘offsetting’ battery consumption by however much it can supply, and if the load drops off to the point that the system raises to ~49 the psu’s ‘idle’ at a few watts each and my generator essentially ‘idles’ as well, although this is a cheap non-inverter gen so its still out there churning 3600rpm at no load, sadly.

If i turn them all on at once (3 switches) it’s ~3kw into my 48v system and doesnt require me to do anything on the 48v side, change any settings flip any disconnects etc. Ac bypass irritates me on my Growatts so im avoiding it with this setup. I used to use a 5kw gas generator into growatts and it was too loud, too thirsty, and required me to spend too much time thinking about what i was doing on the loads side and wouldn’t actually charge batteries anyway unless i didnt plan to do a single thing that would push the 5k gen past its comfort zone. It was something that required me to be aware of it basically the whole time it was happening. On the other hand, between a 3500w generator running at less than max making considerably less noise and never ever overloading, 5kwh in my rv and untold kwh in the >12+ vehicles hooked up outside which would also mostly charge that system at 600-700w each if i wanted a car engine running, I just dont realy have to think about those systems when they’re on. The 12v ‘feeds’ operate at basically fixed rates that i can ballpark kwh with a couple seconds of mental math and then ignore for that many hours. The generator feed basically only comes up if i want to run the clothes drier with no sun, in which case i turn it off when im done and am fairly convinced i havent used much more gas than i really had to because if it went above 49v it just ‘idled’.

Its just one big science experiment done incrementaly with the cheapest stuff i could get my hands on as ‘proof of concept’ of my crazy thoughts, and now that it’s proven it may get ‘upgraded’ with better components if it ever breaks. But, my experience so far is that if a fan doesnt fail (which they do, cheap stuff) and the units are oriented and spaced for airflow they do seem to be able to run at max output for long periods. The outputs are hooked to the 48v system 24/7 so no damage from ‘pre-charge’ issues and i suspect that softens the inrush on the AC side as well. The ones that are hooked to gen are plugged in before its ever running and i suspect the 0-3600rpm runup softens the inrush there as well. So i think they are being treated better than some of the early 12v 30a models which i did kill parts on but mostly seemed to come down to ‘connections etiquette’ of how they were hooked or unhooked from power.

So there’s an essay.. lol
 
Oh nice that someone knows the internals! :D Any idea as to just how adjustable it is? Basically, does it have 1A step in the lower ranges?
It will have the same adjustability as a Voltronics AIO's SCC. I can't check mine at the moment.
 
My current key question really boils down to this:

Given a CV power supply where the maximum AMPs is less then 0.5C of any single lifepo4 battery and the ability to set the voltage to tenths of a volt; can you safely charge to around 80-90% SOC?

Based on what I have read this should be "yes" assuming you A) Select the correct voltage (insert yet another "fun" debate on correct charging voltage, that I will short circuit (pun intended) by not remotely attempting to reach 100% SOC or top balance AT ALL when charging this way) B) make sure the charger doesn't stay on longer than needed C) make sure the charger doesn't self immolate by going over it's actual ability due to LifePo4's low resistance.
 
The short answer to your question is "Yes."

Longer answer, that's basically all your SCC is anyway, as far as your batteries are concerned: a power supply regulated to the maximum safe charging voltage, and current limited to a safe charge current, which you just did by selecting a power supply that can't supply more current than the battery can safely take.
 
My current key question really boils down to this:

Given a CV power supply where the maximum AMPs is less then 0.5C of any single lifepo4 battery and the ability to set the voltage to tenths of a volt; can you safely charge to around 80-90% SOC?

Based on what I have read this should be "yes" assuming you A) Select the correct voltage (insert yet another "fun" debate on correct charging voltage, that I will short circuit (pun intended) by not remotely attempting to reach 100% SOC or top balance AT ALL when charging this way) B) make sure the charger doesn't stay on longer than needed C) make sure the charger doesn't self immolate by going over it's actual ability due to LifePo4's low resistance.
Yes, it will be selectable, within its nominal range.
Same as any other SCC.
 
So I have 4x “48v 10a” power supplies, ostensibly 500w each. 3 of them are ‘fixed’ 48v with just a trim pot and wont go past 49.x volts, one is a 0-48 model which will go almost to 53v. Also have a 60v 7ish amp i run off my 12v system into the 48v sometimes, and 4x 100w 54.6v little charge cords. All this feeds into the same set of bus bars which is hooked to my 48v system.

The reason for the mix of voltages etc is because if you use a voltage you actually expect your pack to reach there is considerable variability of how much power is consumed and delivered between each side of things. The little 100w 54v units will never bring my system to 54 volts, so they stay ~100w for as long as they’re on. I usually use those to feed from the ~5kwh lifepo4 120v system in my Rv into my 48 house pack overnight to ‘shift cycles’ from the fla to the lifepo4, and i bought 4x 100w instead of a 400w because it let me experiment in 100w increments. Ive seen those as low as $8/ea on amazon. The 60v ~7a (~$30) is likewise ‘always’ 400w and runs off a 12v inverter hooked to my silly 12v bus of cars and tractors parked outside my house. ? Im essentially using voltages as a cheap hack for not buying things with adjustable current limiting.

The 49v psu’s (30-something $) may actually push the system to 49 and when hooked to my generator that’s ideal because i dont actually want my generator use to get ‘even more ridiculously inefficient’ by trying to actually charge my large FLA pack at FLA charging efficiencies, off gasoline. My thinking is that if you are using the power as you make it, you are not subjecting that power to an extra conversion/efficiency loss by actually trying to put it in your battery before you use it. It is just going on the 48v bus and ‘offsetting’ battery consumption by however much it can supply, and if the load drops off to the point that the system raises to ~49 the psu’s ‘idle’ at a few watts each and my generator essentially ‘idles’ as well, although this is a cheap non-inverter gen so its still out there churning 3600rpm at no load, sadly.

If i turn them all on at once (3 switches) it’s ~3kw into my 48v system and doesnt require me to do anything on the 48v side, change any settings flip any disconnects etc. Ac bypass irritates me on my Growatts so im avoiding it with this setup. I used to use a 5kw gas generator into growatts and it was too loud, too thirsty, and required me to spend too much time thinking about what i was doing on the loads side and wouldn’t actually charge batteries anyway unless i didnt plan to do a single thing that would push the 5k gen past its comfort zone. It was something that required me to be aware of it basically the whole time it was happening. On the other hand, between a 3500w generator running at less than max making considerably less noise and never ever overloading, 5kwh in my rv and untold kwh in the >12+ vehicles hooked up outside which would also mostly charge that system at 600-700w each if i wanted a car engine running, I just dont realy have to think about those systems when they’re on. The 12v ‘feeds’ operate at basically fixed rates that i can ballpark kwh with a couple seconds of mental math and then ignore for that many hours. The generator feed basically only comes up if i want to run the clothes drier with no sun, in which case i turn it off when im done and am fairly convinced i havent used much more gas than i really had to because if it went above 49v it just ‘idled’.

Its just one big science experiment done incrementaly with the cheapest stuff i could get my hands on as ‘proof of concept’ of my crazy thoughts, and now that it’s proven it may get ‘upgraded’ with better components if it ever breaks. But, my experience so far is that if a fan doesnt fail (which they do, cheap stuff) and the units are oriented and spaced for airflow they do seem to be able to run at max output for long periods. The outputs are hooked to the 48v system 24/7 so no damage from ‘pre-charge’ issues and i suspect that softens the inrush on the AC side as well. The ones that are hooked to gen are plugged in before its ever running and i suspect the 0-3600rpm runup softens the inrush there as well. So i think they are being treated better than some of the early 12v 30a models which i did kill parts on but mostly seemed to come down to ‘connections etiquette’ of how they were hooked or unhooked from power.

So there’s an essay.. lol
That's a lot of good info there. I think my concern trying to replicate is that LifePo4 has such low resistance that without CC many power supplies will go over their rated Amps (or shutdown). One of the "hacks" I saw suggested is to add resistance (say a 0.05 Ohm power resistor) tuned to regulate the input power.

I'm also very much in the tinkering stages of things, which is why buying a whole other generator, or another AIO, etc just doesn't make sense *for me*. If I had a larger system, and/or was fully off grid that would change things IMHO.
 
The short answer to your question is "Yes."

Longer answer, that's basically all your SCC is anyway, as far as your batteries are concerned: a power supply regulated to the maximum safe charging voltage, and current limited to a safe charge current, which you just did by selecting a power supply that can't supply more current than the battery can safely take.
Ok, so now onto a perhaps spicier part... For a 16s LifePo4 if I am shopping for a AC-DC supply to be used as discussed, what should I look for as a voltage? Basically "I should have a Maximum at least X volts or it will never charge" and "it should have a minumum of no more then Y volts or you risk damage" (I know it feels a bit backwards to say it that way...)

Another way to put it, lets say you have an adjustable power supply what range MUST it include to be used for this, noting that I don't need or care about hitting 100% SOC, in the range of 80-90% would be fine. Obviously the ideal supply would have an adjustment range of something like 48-60V, but what is sort of the "minimum feature set" range wise?
 
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From what i have recently learned, it seems like if you actually want to be safe ‘ignoring’ an input to lifepo4 ‘indefinitely’ it must be below 3.37v/cell. That is a crappy voltage for charging because it will charge slowly unless the lifepo4 is at very low SoC and will take an eternity to “fully” charge, BUT you can supposedly ignore it an forget about it.

But that’s fine! Because i’m not trying to ‘charge’ with my system, im trying to ‘avoid discharging beyond a certain point’. I have described my contraption as more of a ‘voltage backstop’ than a charger. When i leave the 100w supplies on overnight it does do some superficial charging according to my voltage, but im dubious of it being ‘real’ in terms of kwh because it’s technically like .01C on my 3000lb of used FLA and ive heard that below a certain minimum c rate its not doing what you think it is.

So yes i think it is possible to have some psus running long periods or 24/7 that is far enough below your fully charged voltage that they wont cook lifepo4 and other than ‘idle consumption’ can be ignored. Only caveat is your system has to actually drop to that voltage before they do anything. But yeah im doing that and i like it and in my mind it works.
 
About what Vigo said. If you want to slow charge, it should be 3.37-3.40V/cell=53.92-54.4V. This should also get somewhere approaching a full charge about as the current starts to really trail off. Above that to about 3.5V/cell=56V will maintain current, and thus draw on a generator probably all the way up to the knee, which is pretty close to max possible charge.
 
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