EcoFlow DELTA 1300 (Plug-N-Play)

[Kevin.E]

Hello
Can someone with a Delta connect a 48v battery to the solar charge port and see if the charge controller inside the delta limits the current to below 10 amps?

I am interested to see if a 48v battery could be used to expand the capacity of the Delta. Understanding it will be limited to the 400 watt input on the solar input connection.

tks
Kevin

 

[Jos.]

Has anyone tried to return a Delta 1300 through their "Customer Service" group? I am having terrible results. Here is what I finally posted in their Comments Section on Kickstarter:

ECOFLOW, YOU SENT A FLIMSY REPLY TO MY FIRST EMAIL, AND NOW YOU IGNORE MY REPLY. YOU LEAVE ME NO CHOICE BUT TO POST THIS IN THE COMMENTS SECTION. YOUR POOR CUSTOMER SERVICE IS EARNING YOU A TERRIBLE REPUTATION, WHICH WILL AFFECT YOUR NEW PRODUCT SALES. PLEASE PROVIDE RETURN INFORMATION.

To: EcoFlow <hello.ecoflow@gmail.com>; support@ecoflow.com <support@ecoflow.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020, 7:10:04 AM CST
Subject: Re: Refund or Exchange


1) The test temperature is a constant 64°F, which will give lithium the optimum results.

2) The load is a 7 year old Kenmore (Frigidaire) EnergyStar refrigerator which draws 37~41 watts, and 600 watts when it goes in to the defrost cycle. This is a real world test of an application that your advertising endorses.

It is also the same test that I use for competitive generators, and all of the ones that I build.

3) I use Valence brand lithium batteries and either ExelTech (MIL approved with 22.5 years MTBF) or Xantrex pure sine wave inverters. I see efficiencies of 85%~88% on the same test.

4) You have not addressed your dismal performance numbers. Note that the numbers at the bottom of this email are from YOU in the Comments section of your campaign.

5) Either the efficiency numbers from you are correct and my two units are defective, or, your numbers were false, and you should honor a refund (and publish true numbers).

On Wednesday, January 22, 2020, 4:54:00 AM CST, support@ecoflow.com <support@ecoflow.com> wrote:



Hi Joseph.
Dear customer, for the issue of efficiency, because delta is a high-power consumer, keeping delta AC on, the delta itself will consume a certain amount of power. If you want to use delta to charge low-power appliances, we recommend using a DC interface. If you want to test the efficiency of delta charging, please ensure that the delta is used at normal room temperature. Overcooling or overheating will affect the efficiency of delta.
The support we get from our Kickstarter backers is what enables us to run and grow our business, gather customer feedback, design new products and improve existing ones.
Best regards.

​

support@ecoflow.com

Date: 2020-01-20 09:57
To: Ecoflow Support; EcoFlow
Subject: Refund or Exchange
I am in receipt of (2) 1300's; Backer # 1,177.

I have tested them round-trip, and find them way out of your claimed performance:

First, fully charged, both were put on a load and ran until shut-off occurred.
#1 outputted just .57kWh. If all 1,295 Wh were used, that is an inverter efficiency of only 44%
#2 outputted just .58kWh. If all 1,295 Wh were used, that is an inverter efficiency of only 44.7%
(Chances are the Delta shut down before using all 1,295 watts, so the above numbers would be even worse.)

Next, fully charging:
#1 took 1.64kWh, for a charge efficiency of only 78.96% (Like putting $1,640 in the bank, and having only $570 available.)
#2 took 1.68kWh, for a charge efficiency of only 77.08% (Like putting $1,680 in the bank, and having only $580 available.)

Round-trip efficiency:
#1 34.75%
#2 34.52%

I build Solar Generators, and have also tested many brands. These numbers are the absolute worse that I have ever seen.
To be clear, you said in the Comments Section that the AC outlet efficiency is up to 92%

I either received two faulty units, or, this is the actual design of the Delta. If this is the actual design, I want to return them for a refund. If you believe they can do better, please advise.

Awaiting your response.

Joseph

EcoFlowCreator4 months ago
Hi Jose,
DELTA's AC outlet efficiency is up to 92%. Thank you for your advices for the 12V port. I will definitely forward your idea to engineering team. We will keep upgrade our product.
EcoFlowCreator4 months ago
2. Efficiency:
a. AC to DC/DC to AC: up to 92%
2. USB- A: 95%
3. USB- C: 93%

 

[Jenny]

Dear Jos.

I get the impression that it is impossible to return the Delta. At first you are given 7 Days no questions asked to return, but they take longer than this to deliver the Delta, and then there's a 30 day return warranty, but they only respond to your first ever email and say that they'll approach people higher up the echelon. And then they don't reply to anything you ask. For this reason, I would say to anyone buying the Delta 1300--they'll take your money, are you willing to lose it? I read elsewhere that a return ship label was issued, but it had no contact information on it but just a number and the person decided not to send it back into a black hole with no proof of shipping. This sounds very bizarre to me.

My problem is that, as a kickstarter supporter, I was sent a Delta this January but it was an Ecoflow3Pro which is the tester version sent to initial reviewers like the excellent Will Prowse. His review on youtube is notable--check it out. My manual is the same as Will's but that manual is not the same that you can download from online. The online manual is for the, let's say, 'real Delta' promised to kickstarter supporters. Meaning that the 'new' Delta has UPS function, pure sine wave function, and is chainable. Comparing manuals, the EC3Pro (that I received) is EPS not UPS ("The function is not a UPS function and does not support 20ms switching"), and the LCD display does not include a monitor for the UPS function. In other words, they send out old stuff that does not perform like the 'new'.

I also ordered 2 x 110 watt solar panels, one arriving slightly damaged with the PV cover detached and markings on the sheet of cells. I didn't want to try this in a new machine, and I don't like using things (like a new Delta) if I am to return the product.

Given my experience with trying to contact Ecoflow I can only recommend to potential new customers to "run for the hills". Despite wanting to help a company that is run by 4, under 40, to keep your eyes on, and promoting innovatory science, I feel that I mean nothing and am worth nothing to this company.

 

[Jos.]

Hello Jenny,

Yep, I think we've been "Delta'd", and, we're not the only ones.

No new reply from EcoFlew here. At least my 1300's, 110w, and 21w panels, were not damaged. They are still usable, but terrible efficiency.

New issues I have noticed:
1) Even when solar charging with only 10~17 watts, the top of the 1300 is warm. This indicates inefficiency, and power being wasted as heat. If I do not disconnect the panels after they stop producing, and shut the unit off, the 1300 will eat up all the power gained during the day! Even my cheapest PWN charge controller does not do that.
2) In the room where I test all bought, and made, solar generators, I have a TV. Never a problem until I charged a 1300 via the AC plug in that room. Totally wiped out the picture. There is a FCC logo on the box, but no copy of the certificate. I would ask them for such, but why bother?

BEWARE, BEWARE, BEWARE, BEWARE, BEWARE, BEWARE, BEWARE, BEWARE, !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

 

[Jenny]

Jos.,

You are clearly more advanced in the tech world than yours truly, so what you say in your issues about heat/iniefficiency and the amount of power that is eaten up that is generated (most of it!), is truly alarming.

You'd think that Ecoflow would want to show that they are dealing with these problems, and be there for their clients/financial supporters (Kickstarter/Indiegogo). And maybe some of their clientele could actually help in pointing out their failings so they can improve tech.

I'm getting the impression that they released the Delta too soon and it required more testing. I would not have minded waiting as I am the patient sort. And I would be satisfied if Ecoflow responded to my concerns by email or phone, even now. But they have disappeared into the sunset.

I would be very interested to hear if Will Prowse was ever sent the 'right Delta' as a Kickstarter backer as he purchased it too--and if its performance improved over the initial Delta sent to him to review by Ecoflow?

The mega-downside to this is that I, for one, having taken a risk in funding Delta via Kickstarter will seriously question ever supporting Ecoflow, and even sadly Kickstarter groups again following this experience.

Will is right. Build your own. Kudos to Mr Prowse.

J.

 

[Jos.]

Hello Jenny,

Yes, I have been building them since 2014. When a new one comes out with promising features, I buy one, and run it through its paces.

The ultra-fast charging was the Delta's forte. But, the price for this aggressive charging is its short life. EcoFlew tries to hide it by saying 800 cycles, however, that is with a guaranteed 60% capacity remaining. This is also when the "free battery replacement" kicks in. Everyone else specifies 80% in their warranty. the Delta will only get 500 cycles before dipping below that. And, that is per EcoFlews specification, which I do not trust at all anymore. (The benchmark for lithium cycles is 2,000!)

Now, who out there trusts that EcoFlew will honor this warranty? I do not...they can not even answer their email, or take care of their claimed refunds.

Yes, I know the company is EcoFlow, but, they are acting like a fly-by-night company, and it appears that they have flown the coop, hence Flew.

Jos.

 

[Otis Odyssey]

Wish I got in at $800....
At $1300, I will wait and hope for 3 prong fix in quick release Rev. 2. Or maybe there will be other manufacturers choices in the next couple months thanks to Will's continual feedback - I have time.
As usual, great review on DIY solar!
Temperature throttling issues: IF I do drop the cash and get that power hungry, I'll lower my Delta into an Alpicool 20 set at 5C!

 

[Ely]

@Otis Odyssey
The upcoming 2020 Goal Zero Yetis comes with an MPPT controller, regulated 12 volt output and an strong inverter (standard US outlets, perfect for 3 prong).

The actual Yetis are not so good, inefficient charging and an unregulated 12 volt output.

 

[Jenny]

Jos,

Is your model the Ecoflew3Pro? I'm wondering from today's Ecoflow web update with its notice that the Delta 1300s are now back in stock, which version we are now on (and have not been sent).

Otis & Ely,

I got in at the 800$, and while highly impressed by the Delta's AC plug in recharge rate, I still feel slighted that the promised UPS/Chainability is not there, and that service is lacking. If you waited, you'd probably get a better version of the Delta, but the service will still not be there! I was impressed by the Yeti, but the price point was significantly higher. It seems that if you can wait then someone will invent the right 'portabox'. How long do we wait? I still think following Will's how to build your own solar power generating system seems the best route to go. The package is affordable and does what you want. If your goal is offgrid solar power system building check out: https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/.

 

[Jos.]

Jenny,

Mine is Model EF3 Pro.

Yes, it is funny that their website says In Stock, yet backers are still waiting.

As for building your own, I like Will's approach, but have gotten such a good deal on used and new Valence brand batteries, 40Ah, 130Ah, and 138Ah, that it would cost more for me to build with the individual cells. Also, when quick charging is not needed, I use Genasun charge controllers. Their night time draw is measured in microamps, not milliamps. They are 10A max, but with the Boost units, you can get up to 300+w of solar. The Victron sounds good, but I haven't tried any yet. For large systems, I use the Midnite Solar Classic 150. For inverters, I use Xantrex Pure Sine 600w/1000w/ or 2000w, or, ExcelTech Pure Sine 125w, 250w, 600w, or 1100w (these are built in TX, are Military approved, and have 22.5 years MTBF). So, you don't have to worry about BMS unit, but with both choices, have to make your own enclosure. And of course, DC rated fuses/circuit breakers and good copper wire.

If you wait for EcoFlews new products, no matter how good they may seem, I would wait to see if they cleaned up their mess, AND, if they have honored their free battery replacement. Any less, and you are gambling against a stacked deck.

 

[Jenny]

Jos,

As Delta 1300 users, Kickstarter backers were enticed further by 'unlocked' goodies as $ targets were surpassed, including pure sine wave inverters and upgraded dampeners, UPS functionability, etc. How do we know if we actually got these without breaking into the box? If I don't have UPS function (as stated in the included manual) does this mean I need a separate UPS box? Can the EF3Pros be chained anyway? I realize these are tech questions and ought to be directed, well, to those who flew away. And they were. I'm obviously not waiting for spring until they come back.

My system includes 2 x 110W folding portable solar panels, which were (at that time of committing to Ecoflow/Kickstarter) sold with 2 cables included. No cable arrived, but one was included with the Delta itself. I asked Ecoflow for such unlocked goodies like this MC4 to XT-60 cable, but was told "The number of MC4 cables you need depends on the number of solar panels you have. If you only have two, then the [supplied to everyone] cable that you received [with the Delta 1300] is already enough". The 2 solar panels arrived without cables. It wasn't a case of--right we promised you one as an extra as a Kickstarter supporter, here it is, or, right we normally ship the 110s with 2 cables, but more along the lines of 'we're already handing too many of these out' (check out their laissez-faire attitude at https://ecoflow.com/pages/kickstarter-return-policy). And their gauge is not thick, so are not very good, anyway.

Your info on the systems you use is extremely valuable, however, I've got an Ecoflow system and I have to live with it as I cannot find anyone to return it to! (Another beef: I don't have a receipt for it, despite requests! Just the credit card bill). All this is a little chilling. I'm trying to keep positive while others have options beyond Ecoflow...

 

[Jos.]

Jenny,

Pure Sine Wave was always there.

Without seeing the original dampeners, we'll have to trust them that they gave us the upgraded dampeners. : ) ; ) : O

For UPS, plug in a desktop computer to the Delta, and the Delta to the wall. Pull the plug out of the wall, and if the computer does not hiccup, it would appear that the UPS is there, and working. (Maybe someone else on here has a better way to test?)

It would be obvious if you got the car battery "charger" (what a joke it is).

Did you pay for the 2 cables? What they say IS functionally correct, but, I cannot speak for multiple 110w units; I only bought one to test against some other new ones on the market. There is zip recourse, as you have noted.

The chaining is separate from the UPS function. I asked early on what the true efficiency would be of the double conversion, and got no answer. I did buy a 2nd 1300 for that, as I am building a lithium powered generator to run the roof air in my motorhome while driving But on longer trips, taking overnight at a campground to recharge it is not an option. Therefore, 2 Deltas that can be charged in 1+hrs. seemed like a good idea. I haven't tested this, as I was hoping to return them. In spite of what they promised, the next item shows their true colors.

Their site says "While all of our products are guaranteed for life, we do not offer refunds, returns, or exchanges on items received as Kickstarter rewards (except for product quality problems). " Apparently, not meeting their published specifications is not a quality problem?! So much for their "7 day" lie.

 

[Jenny]

Jos,

Always interested to see what you write.

Naturally I am averse to testing the UPS function like you suggest!

No I didn't pay extra for the cables, they just were not included as I thought they would be. As I mentioned, they sent no receipt so it's hard to prove what was included and what was not. How did your testing of the 110W units go? I see they are now selling those for $500. Wow.

I spent today trying to find replacement XT-60 to MC4 solar panel connector cables as the cable sent seems so terribly inferior, but unless I build the cable up myself (requiring soldering, etc) I don't seem to be able to find substitutes. This is bizarre too. I feel slightly brain challenged at this point.

Re: The chaining issue. The Ecoflow3Pro does not seem to have this capability--according to my manual. However, the manual online for the soon to be released updated Delta 1300 states it will be chainable or as they say under 'series mode' 3 Deltas can be connected see: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TvNSl9PYeXbt0xV65IvsKlfbqqo9fka3/view accessed via: https://ecoflow.com/pages/user-manual (and 'entry level UPS', yes, another thing to deal with). In my request for clarification for chaining I pointed out that I needed to know as I was considering buying a second model (as you 'wisely' chose too), but even this promise of future purchase did not prompt a response.

In a bizarre twist, Ecoflow answered a request placed today for the model number currently shipping (Feb 11 2019) and it is Ecoflow3Pro they say (still not updated with the UPS function, I'm assuming). I'm feeling less slighted as everyone is getting this model, but I still want what was promised. Something about 'misrepresentation' springs to mind. However, as I admit being brain challenged I can prove that challenge by living in the hope they will meet their commitments and do the right thing. My guaranteed for life battery came in a box with a sticker saying two years warranty. Is that an error or a threat?! Sorry, I'm chortling here.

Jenny.

 

[John Frum]

Naturally I am averse to testing the UPS function like you suggest!

Why?

 

[Jenny]

Because my computer cost $3000 and to test it with potential 'hiccup'ing result might not be the best thing? Yes, I understand I can plug something else in. Instead I did contact Ecoflow and they did say
"Yes, Delta 1300 is UPS capable, pure sine wave and chainable.
Please check the website to learn more about the product specs."
Also, it the 1300 is supposed to be through-put--so plug the sun panels in and draw out at the same time (not sure if plugging into the mains AC is a more powerful/too powerful action--I'm not an electrician). Would be interested to know.

 

[John Frum]

Because my computer cost $3000 and to test it with potential 'hiccup'ing result might not be the best thing? Yes, I understand I can plug something else in. Instead I did contact Ecoflow and they did say
"Yes, Delta 1300 is UPS capable, pure sine wave and chainable.
Please check the website to learn more about the product specs."
Also, it the 1300 is supposed to be through-put--so plug the sun panels in and draw out at the same time (not sure if plugging into the mains AC is a more powerful/too powerful action--I'm not an electrician). Would be interested to know.

Switch mode power supplies like the one in your PC will operate quite happily on even a modified sine wave.
Also all the popular modern operating systems have journal functionality so file system corruption and data loss are not an issue for normal usage.
I see power blips at my house that are long enough that the lights visibly flicker ~20-100 milliseconds and my PC just keeps chugging along.
Its been up for 98 days as of this post.

 

[Jos.]

Jenny,

I suggested using a desktop computer to test the UPS functionality because a laptop immediately switches to battery back up if the AC is disconnected. Unplugging the Delta merely simulates a power outage, and seeing if your desktop "hiccups" just shows if the Delta switched fast enough. Its original design was something like 100ms (1/10 of a second), which would cause computers to lose data.

Weather has not permitted any real testing of the 110w panel, but the two non-folding flexible 100w panels I bought from Titan put out the same. $500 is absurd. Check out http://www.lensunsolar.com/ I was happy with one that I bought from them.

I do not know of a source for XT-60 to MC4, so I bought an extra one while the price was reasonable. For Xt 60 and 90 connectors, I use LunaCycles:
https://lunacycle.com/xt60-set-connectors-with-pigtails/
I do wish the Delta had used the Xt90 which is 10 - 12 AWG wire, instead of 12 - 14 AWG.

As for the chaining issue, their write ups are confusing. And they note UPS transfer in <50ms. I am positive that when they announced a bonus of including the UPS function, it was much faster. But, I do not have time to chase that down.

Jos.

 

[Jenny]

Jos/SmoothJoey,

Thanks for this info, it is really helpful. I have a Macbook Pro, presumably this has journal functionality and switches just fine...

I do have the 2 solar panels from ecoflow--still working on a sunny day here, too. I found the same part used for the missing solar panel cable connection (the bit glued to the panel frame itself). It was $1.97 on AliBaba (for the entire cable), so I can find a replacement plastic cover for the cable attachment area. I'm not commenting on the $1.97 beyond knowing you are rolling your eyes. Still no assistance on anything from EcoFlow. I agree with the level of quality--a 10 AWG would be awesome.

My concerns have been addressed mostly by you--now I'm trying to get the Delta to the tiny house but it is 100% charged and travel is supposed to be restricted to 30%. Bizarre that there could be a problem with a battery that holds its charge too well! Will have to plug stuff in to reduce the charge level.

Sorry for the radio silence--my email went down as people were sending too many photos and papers...

Best, Jenny

 

[acesk8er]

Jehu did a teardown:

 

[pnwsun]

Jehu also did a recent full comprehensive review:

He praises the battery thermal protection stating this is very difficult to recreate in a DIY setup. In regards to the efficiency of the unit that has been discussed: "This unit has a round-trip efficiency of 63%. Now that figure is not that great but it is to be expected on a unit as versatile as this. The things that would increase efficiency would most likely add considerable Size, Weight and Cost to this product."

Also he did a live stream on how to hack a battery expansion to the unit. I haven't seen this one in entirety.