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EG4 18k or two 6000XP can't decide

Arlene303

New Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2024
Messages
36
Location
Woodland Park, CO
Hi, this is my 1st post, thanks Will for excellent videos over the past year! We've lived off grid at mountain house for 13 years on 3.6kW Outback inverter (VFX3648 Outback Inverter), 48V lead acid batteries (qty 16 all 6 volt 370Ahin 8 in series to make 48V string x 2 strings parallel 48V) and solar panels (12 panels total in series and parallel). I have a 2017 Prius Prime PHEV which my husband doesn't like me charging (Level 1 only) because of delicate house batteries, so I only charge on sunny days when house batteries are 95% charged, never after 4pm. (We have a small 240V transformer for a 600' well pump but I can't use it for Level 2 PHEV charging, its too small). At 9600' in Woodland Park Colorado, 7 miles as crow flies from Pikes Peak, we get many sunny days in winter, with snow reflection its easy to top off batteries. Three weeks ago our lead acid batteries sagged to 43.5 volts so we stoked 2 woodstoves all night long, sun came up in the morning and woke solar panels up to charge batteries and all was fine. Husband dragged gasoline generator outside to make sure it worked for an hour in snowstorm but never had to connect it this year to top off batteries. We also didn't use gasoline generator at all last year, but year before that used it 2x. Back when we only had 8 batteries instead of 16 batteries, and 6 solar panels instead of 12, we had to use the gas generator 3 times the first year year, but only 1x or 2x or no times all subsequent years, so not bad for over 13 years. Our VFX3648W Outback inverter system is great but nearing 15 years old, doesn't seem like they've had major updates. Now we want Automatic Transfer Switch ATS Generac or Kohler, heard Kohler slightly more reliable but parts can be harder to fine, whereas Generac reliability is still top notch and eBay parts can be found quickly all over the US. Would two EG4 6000XPs be good to replace the one Outback inverter, since we are a mile away from public utility so not doing grid tied? Or does the EG4 18k have a better automatic switch? How about for Level 2 PHEV charging? What if my husband buys a PHEV car, not sure if 2024 Prius Prime PHEV or something like a 2024 Hyundai Tucson PHEV? (In addition to my 2017 Prius Prime PHEV)? What if we add off grid sauna hybrid heat (two 20A breakers (4500W and 3750W both at 240V). or instead of that, what if we add off grid hot tub hybrid heat pump or electric or woodstove fired? Thinking heat with electric during day only IF we are not charging PHEV cars, then top off at night with woodstove when we actually use it at 7pm - 8pm for half hour? Also, is one system easier than other to program the hot tub breaker to shut off if batteries drop below 95% or some threshold? And also to cut off charging 1 or 2 PHEV cars if batteries drop below 95%? Also I just bought Bluetti AC180 for my Ford Transit Connect camper van build because I can easily lift 35 lbs in and out and Bluetti 200W portable solar panels came with it for package $899 great deal and btw it can charge my prius prime for a half hour before shutting down with no error codes and works just fine after (won't do that often but its a fun party trick to show it'll get me charged enough to drive 3 miles haha). I don't think it's appropriate to tie my Bluetti AC180 into charging my prius prime at mountain house, unless somehow as a pass thru but really it's just for camping and stored inside our city house for backup if power goes out in city, we are on city power there. Unless the Bluetti has a use case at mountain house? Also, spoke to Signature Solar today and to grid tie city house then EG4 18k would cost me BALLPARK $9800 everything new batteries. But if I didn't grid tie, two EG4 6000XPs would also cost same BALLPARK price $9800. BEFORE I use Signature Solar's free online load calculator so they can give me better recommendation and quote, ARE THERE ANY OTHER CONSIDERATIONS? Any pros/cons at city house? Schneider didn't make cut. Might be nice to have same system both places to make software easier? My husband knows we are undersized at mountain house and has no problem resizing to larger system but is frugal and wants best value. Which is better for ATS Automatic Transfer Switch generator input 18k or two 6000XPs? Or wait 6 months or one year for a better system that plays better with automatic switch generator? I also thought about Will's hand truck video EG4 3k with one 6000XP split phase and buy 10 used solar panels laying on the ground to charge my prius prime completely separate from the mountain house, so my husband doesn't have to worry about critical systems breaking and pipes freezing, for $2290, on wheels! This would be major PITA wheeling it in and out every time I want to charge, but It'd also be useful for friends with PHEV that are visiting us at mountain house, we wouldn't feel bad about not allowing them to charge on our house batteries, hmmm... Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!

Update REVISED: We will replace all batteries soonest with EG4 LL 48V 100ah server rack mounted batteries, quantity 9, now, instead of waiting until summer. Then this summer we'll replace our 3648W Outback inverter with one EG4 6000XP. And add a string of 10-12 solar panels. Husband convinced me to live meagerly last 13 years, but he is probably not willing to size the system for any electric & wood hot tub but instead do all 100% woodstove heat on wood hot tub. And he thinks a 4.5kW sauna seems excessive, he wants 100% wood fired sauna. . We're ok with ground mount 1 foot from ground, if elk, bear and mountain lions won't bother them, but I wonder if they will? We'll add them to our existing 12 solar panels. Our existing solar panels bought new 10 & 14 years ago are half on one tall steel pillar and half on a 2nd similar tall steel pillar. We rotate one steel pillar with sun 3-4 x / year , and also can twirl on post but we leave the twirling stationary, one slightly to east to catch 30 more minutes of morning sun rays, and one slightly west to catch 30 more minutes of setting sun rays for an hour more each day of solar charging activity.

We'll also add wind, such as small $1000 3' diameter Primus wind turbine 48V. And dissipative heat load - will this force us into 2nd EG 6000XP inverter? Any pros/cons? What do folks think of ~$5500 Harmony Turbines not available yet? Can folks recommend solar thermal panels that work on water only, not glycol? On home tour in my town, another off gridder installed 4 huge solar thermal panels (maybe 3'x 7' unsure) on a tiny angle (2-3%) so only water is used, not glycol, and her hot water only costs a $FEW kwh cents a day to pump the water up, because when it gets too cold at the end of the day, gravity feeds all the water back to her mechanical room heat exchanger so no freezing problems, no leaks in over 12 years in cold Colorado. She has 500 gal water inside mech room, looks like concrete or quick rete encased tank. We heat our home with woodstove and propane but are eating it up with 1300' addition last year of glycol in floor heat. Would it be better to add extra heating with solar thermal, or with 10-20 extra solar panels of electric energy added onto our existing 12 solar panels we've had 14 years? Thanks so much.
 

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Yes, Colorado Springs Utilities has Net Metering and Time Of Day (TOD):
  • Non-summer (Oct.-May) on-peak, 4 p.m. – 8 p.m.
  • Summer (June-Sept.) on-peak, 4 p.m. – 8 p.m.
  • Off-peak hours are all other times as well as the following holidays: New Year’s Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, Thanksgiving Day and Christmas Day.
  • EIR ETR
  • Electric Standard TOD Time Of Day
  • Access and Facilities Charge, per day $0.6007 $0.6007
  • Access and Facilities Charge, per kWh $0.0823
  • Electric Cost Adjustment (ECA), per kWh $0.0284
  • Access and Facilities Charge:
  • Winter (October – May), On-Peak, per kWh $0.1330
  • Winter (October – May), Off-Peak, per kWh $0.0665
  • Summer (June – September), On-Peak, per kWh $0.2660
  • Summer (June – September), Off-Peak, per kWh $0.0665
  • Electric Cost Adjustment (ECA):
  • On-peak, per kWh $0.0693
  • Off-peak, per kWh $0.0223
  • Electric Capacity Charge (ECC), per kWh $0.0042 $0.0040
  • TOD Option, On-Peak and Off-Peak Period Definitions
  • On-Peak periods: Winter, Oct through May, 4 p.m. to 8 p.m., Mon through Fri
  • On-Peak periods: Summer, Jun through Sept, 4 p.m. to 8 p.m., Mon through Fri
  • Off-Peak periods: All other hours plus legally observed holidays
 
420W total portable solar panels, would need new ones on roof (or good used ones).

At the city house I don't have solar panels on roof but have open no shade southwestern roof slope. I'd consider putting many panels on southwest face, which is almost exact 45 degree angle. I also have 200W Bluetti portable panels and two 110W Sun Power portable flexible panels for total of 420W portable panels, existing portable panels might not fly with HOA haha but the roof is more appropriate with long term sun. The southwest roof face does face away from street so no one in my HOA would see it, neighbors in backyard are down a pretty big hill. HOA says ok to put panels up per law. Yes the All-In-One (AIO) and batteries are only for backup (I THINK, but maybe to avert TOD charges unsure cause I can wait until after 8pm to charge my car in my garage no problem since I can set car schedule inside car), but streamlined smaller sizing of battery is what I'd want, because I can use my Bluetti AC180 for power outages. I can also use gas fireplace in living room with 9V DC battery start for warmth if my forced air furnace goes out so I'm not paranoid, but this new system would be reassuring.
 
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Plug Out Power to use Prius to charge batteries.
Off grid, you do not use an ATS.
Smart Load output on EG4 18kpv to run high power loads when batteries are charged.
If cost is the same, 18kpv.
 
Do you have TOU in the city?
Will the AIO and batteries only be for backup?
Any panels?
I don't think my other reply went under this one so please scroll for my 3 replies to you, sorry, 1st day getting used to forum GUI. But perhaps I'd install other systems that grow on dependence of batteries, unsure, like a heat pump water heater when my natural gas water heater fails, or maybe a hot tub, but doubtful, unsure.
 
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Plug Out Power to use Prius to charge batteries.
Off grid, you do not use an ATS.
Smart Load output on EG4 18kpv to run high power loads when batteries are charged.
If cost is the same, 18kpv.
Yes! Do you know of a good diagram or YouTube, or thread in this forum for how to DIY? I saw a YouTube of a California guy running his SubZero refrigerator because his plug was stuck behind built in cabinetry, with his Prius Prime to panel in garage that ran SELECTED emergency circuits only. I would love this for my fridge, two chest deep freezers, furnace, one TV and computer. I'd have to buy the right crimp tool, add panel to select emergency circuits, and add plug for car extension cable next to my 200A service panel inside my garage. My inside garage wall has room. Thanks. Of course, currently I can use my Bluetti AC180 for these things (haven't had it long enough to test during power outage), but Prius Prime would be awesome for longer power outage. My neighbors had a 3.5 day power outage, so it could happen.

I thought Generac is an ATS. We have two gas generators now, wheeling it out into snow is a pain. We had scare low battery during that artic polar dip 3 weeks ago, but all recovered fine. But my husband was thinking of a Generac at that point. Generac starts on own and sits in its own covering outside - you don't have to go out in the storm to start it.

Well that's just it I'm not sure if cost is same, it's just what they told me ballpark quickly GENERALLY SPEAKING. They did say to put full loads into system for free on their website. We will do that, and get Signature Solar's more official quote, but hoping for different considerations beforehand, thanks.

What is a Smart Load Output on EG4 18kPV? Does it shut off breakers after a 95% threshold - easy to program on app on phone? Like load shedding? or just that I can set it and forget it on phone to shut off at threshold?
 
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So, I really like spending other people’s money and decided to dive into @sunshine_eggo favorite narrative format
My 2 cents:
Sell the city house, it’s a racket down there. full time at the mountain house, buy this inverter kit, PV kit, and battery kit, and then get on the Santansolar website, find the best price per watt of clean used panels order 24-32 of them, spend a couple weekends facilitating install (ground should be thawed, it’s gonna take a few months to prep your city home, list it, close on it, and get your new solar equip)
Plant a garden, make the patio area comfortable and then by June 23rd you should be able to sit on your mountain porch and listen to the echo of the race cars climbing pikes peak.
In the fall, you can harvest your garden in your free time instead of worrying about which firmware version you should be on

IMG_1729.jpegIMG_1731.jpegIMG_1730.jpegIMG_1732.jpeg
 
So, I really like spending other people’s money and decided to dive into @sunshine_eggo favorite narrative format
My 2 cents:
Sell the city house, it’s a racket down there. full time at the mountain house, buy this inverter kit, PV kit, and battery kit, and then get on the Santansolar website, find the best price per watt of clean used panels order 24-32 of them, spend a couple weekends facilitating install (ground should be thawed, it’s gonna take a few months to prep your city home, list it, close on it, and get your new solar equip)
Plant a garden, make the patio area comfortable and then by June 23rd you should be able to sit on your mountain porch and listen to the echo of the race cars climbing pikes peak.
In the fall, you can harvest your garden in your free time instead of worrying about which firmware version you should be on

View attachment 192530View attachment 192531View attachment 192532View attachment 192533
Yes! The race is more like Aug 23. I have ridden my bike up that race course to top of Pikes Peak, from our house! My husband has raced up Pikes Peak in the Ascent, and the next day Marathon up and down! While I hang out at the aid station. We hear the hill climb and have a party that day, look with binoculars! Great perspective. We might put renter in city house one day AFTER we upgrade mountain house system. I wonder if a renter would appreciate an 18k system in it and solar panels. I could build it into the plan as payback. Husband says he'll join this forum after taxes, too busy right now, and will definitely replace entire mechanical room system this summer including batteries, keep existing solar panels but add on. I wonder if we could repurpose that inverter and components at the city house, but folks say the 18k is way to go at city house. Hmmm.
 
I’m glad my comment came across in good spirit!
I think many will recommend the 18kpv for the city residence for its grid integration features and 200a pass thru capability. It is quite a bit more money, but it offers quite a bit of grid functionality
Frankly, I don’t know that you can go “wrong” with either the 18kpv or 2x6000xp it’s just different flavors
That’s amazing about pikes peak! Sounds like fun times
 
I’m glad my comment came across in good spirit!
I think many will recommend the 18kpv for the city residence for its grid integration features and 200a pass thru capability. It is quite a bit more money, but it offers quite a bit of grid functionality
Frankly, I don’t know that you can go “wrong” with either the 18kpv or 2x6000xp it’s just different flavors
That’s amazing about pikes peak! Sounds like fun times
ok good to know, can't go wrong, thanks! This will be a fun summer! Cheers!
 
So, I really like spending other people’s money and decided to dive into @sunshine_eggo favorite narrative format
My 2 cents:
Sell the city house, it’s a racket down there. full time at the mountain house, buy this inverter kit, PV kit, and battery kit, and then get on the Santansolar website, find the best price per watt of clean used panels order 24-32 of them, spend a couple weekends facilitating install (ground should be thawed, it’s gonna take a few months to prep your city home, list it, close on it, and get your new solar equip)
Plant a garden, make the patio area comfortable and then by June 23rd you should be able to sit on your mountain porch and listen to the echo of the race cars climbing pikes peak.
In the fall, you can harvest your garden in your free time instead of worrying about which firmware version you should be on

View attachment 192530View attachment 192531View attachment 192532View attachment 192533
Victron is pretty blue... is $15k worth of fun crimping and perfection madness? Or can it do some backflips I don't know about? I bet the software interface or app is not as easy as EG4?
 
Update, we bought nine (9) EG4 LL-S 48V 100Ah lithium Server Rack batteries yesterday from Emily at Signature Solar, she was great making a package deal of two server racks on wheels with six slots, one server rack completely filled with 6 batteries, and the 2nd one half filled with 3 batteries. She combined the two server racks with a Victron Lynx Distributor 1000A that holds a mega fuse sized for our current small old 3.6kW outback inverter (80A for ours, ~120A for bigger inverters). We'll install this soon to replace our 48V lead acid batteries that are made from 16 6V batteries, whew, cause voltage sag is a real problem in these winter months! Then come springtime we'll get the EG4 6000XP inverter from Emily, one step at a time! Can't wait for installation, thanks again Will for videos, including today's workshop video because if we install Primus Wind Turbine then we'll be expanding to a second EG4 6000XP like your workshop, cheers! I'd love an EG4 and can get a friend to pick it up for me in Vegas, cheers!
 
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I bet the software interface or app is not as easy as EG4?

I think you would lose that bet 😎.

IMHO Victron simplicity on the software side is the gold standard that the rest emulate.

I run a hodgepodge of various gear and hate the computer side of it. Victron’s software side is orders of magnitude better than Schneider, EP Ever and about another half dozen brands I’ve used/still use.

They do charge a premium for it but you get what you pay for IMHO.

Good luck with your project. Maybe I will spot it next time I ride the Cog train 😎.
 
I think you would lose that bet 😎.

IMHO Victron simplicity on the software side is the gold standard that the rest emulate.

I run a hodgepodge of various gear and hate the computer side of it. Victron’s software side is orders of magnitude better than Schneider, EP Ever and about another half dozen brands I’ve used/still use.

They do charge a premium for it but you get what you pay for IMHO.

Good luck with your project. Maybe I will spot it next time I ride the Cog train 😎.
Yes everyone loves Victron, I understand its a quality product. But Victron doesn't sell a 48V lithium battery, I'd have to string together 4 12V lithium batteries with Victron, so instead we bought the EG4 batteries that weigh 100 lbs, my weight limit. And with EG4 batteries, I've become enamored with the EG4 inverters, so will PROBABLY buy the 6000XP in the springtime.
 
Yes everyone loves Victron, I understand its a quality product. But Victron doesn't sell a 48V lithium battery, I'd have to string together 4 12V lithium batteries with Victron, so instead we bought the EG4 batteries that weigh 100 lbs, my weight limit. And with EG4 batteries, I've become enamored with the EG4 inverters, so will PROBABLY buy the 6000XP in the springtime.

Victron doesn't require victron batteries.

I have a home-built 14s NMC battery with Batrium BMS fully in control of my Victron system.

The EG4 48V server rack batteries work with Victron as well with Venus OS 3.00 and higher.
 
I installed one of those in a 2019 Prius. Plug out power obliterated anything obvious brand/model related, so I wasn't able to determine where they source them. Now that I look at the picture, the color scheme is identical to the 24/3kW PowMr I picked up recently... :ROFLMAO:

View attachment 194892
Interesting. Do you like it? Can you unplug it and store it in your garage when you want more cargo space in your trunk? Can you disconnect the cable from the traction battery easily from trunk components, and hopefully have a disconnect switch for safety?
 

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