diy solar

diy solar

Eg4 6500ex RV Grounding

Oops, my inverter button depressed by mistake. It’s not 64v on that output. It’s 1.75v if I touch black to neutral/red to ground. 3.26v the other way around
 
WilliamFR said:
Oops, my inverter button depressed by mistake. It’s not 64v on that output. It’s 1.75v if I touch black to neutral/red to ground. 3.26v the other way around
Click to expand...
Because it's not zero volt, the inverter does not provide a N-G-bonding internally (via the bonding relay) - but you need a N-G-bonding for your mobile usage - it's not required to do an Ohm test additionally. So I think the only clean solution would be to
  • install the newest firmware 79.71 which will give you the option to program the N-G-bonding by intention
If I were you I would do this.

A maybe simpler but" not so clean" option would be to install a wire bridge on the AC-out between neutral and ground to achieve the same. BUT in case someone may update the firmware in future to control the internal N-G-bonding relay while you still have the bonding wire bridge installed, it would not behave like expected (because the wire bridge is permanent)! From the electrical point of view it's the same if you bond it with a bridge or the inverter does the bond internally.

Attention:
If you ever think about connecting AC-in to shore power as an option, the bonding has to be disabled in the inverter, because only one bonding point is allowed and this will be provided in that case already from the shore power (grid)! When the inverter switches to grid mode (bypass and grid battery charging), you would have two bonding points! So if you consider using shore power, you must not install the N-G wire bridge by yourself but instead update to the newest firmware and let the inverter doing the bonding depending on it's operation mode and program 42 setting.
 
fmeili1 said:
Because it's not zero volt, the inverter does not provide a N-G-bonding internally (via the bonding relay) - but you need a N-G-bonding for your mobile usage - it's not required to do an Ohm test additionally. So I think the only clean solution would be to
  • install the newest firmware 79.71 which will give you the option to program the N-G-bonding by intention
If I were you I would do this.

A maybe simpler but" not so clean" option would be to install a wire bridge on the AC-out between neutral and ground to achieve the same. BUT in case someone may update the firmware in future to control the internal N-G-bonding relay while you still have the bonding wire bridge installed, it would not behave like expected (because the wire bridge is permanent)! From the electrical point of view it's the same if you bond it with a bridge or the inverter does the bond internally.

Attention:
If you ever think about connecting AC-in to shore power as an option, the bonding has to be disabled in the inverter, because only one bonding point is allowed and this will be provided in that case already from the shore power (grid)! When the inverter switches to grid mode (bypass and grid battery charging), you would have two bonding points! So if you consider using shore power, you must not install the N-G wire bridge by yourself but instead update to the newest firmware and let the inverter doing the bonding depending on it's operation mode and program 42 setting.
Click to expand...
Well, I suppose that’s good and bad news. Updating the firmware is the fix, I just can’t do it now :)

Once I update to the newest firmware, does the AIO automate the NG bond settings or is that something I have to manually change each time I use ac in?
 
WilliamFR said:
Well, I suppose that’s good and bad news. Updating the firmware is the fix, I just can’t do it now :)

Once I update to the newest firmware, does the AIO automate the NG bond settings or is that something I have to manually change each time I use ac in?
Click to expand...
See the following video from EG4-Electronic. At about time 1:14 he explains that the default for setting 42 (disable) is that the N-G-bonding relay works for typical mobile usage. This means, if the inverter runs in battery mode it does the N-G-bond and as soon as the inverter switches to bypass/grid mode (in case you have connected the AC-in to the grid), it releases automatically it's own N-G-bond and the grid N-G-bond is "visible" on the AC-out. This is what you usually want to achieve! So you don't need to change the setting anymore.

Just for clarification: The other option (enable program 42) is only useful for stationary installations with a grid connected AC-in where a common neutral setup is chosen and the gird based N-G-bond is always visible at the AC-out - independent if the inverter runs in battery or bypass/grid mode!

If you never have shore power connected to AC-in (real off-grid) you may use a self made N-G-bonding wire bridge on the AC-out of your inverter until you'll find the time to update the firmware and later remove your own N-G-bonding wire bridge than.
 
fmeili1 said:
See the following video from EG4-Electronic. At about time 1:14 he explains that the default for setting 42 (disable) is that the N-G-bonding relay works for typical mobile usage. This means, if the inverter runs in battery mode it does the N-G-bond and as soon as the inverter switches to bypass/grid mode (in case you have connected the AC-in to the grid), it releases automatically it's own N-G-bond and the grid N-G-bond is "visible" on the AC-out. This is what you usually want to achieve! So you don't need to change the setting anymore.

Just for clarification: The other option (enable program 42) is only useful for stationary installations with a grid connected AC-in where a common neutral setup is chosen and the gird based N-G-bond is always visible at the AC-out - independent if the inverter runs in battery or bypass/grid mode!

If you never have shore power connected to AC-in (real off-grid) you may use a self made N-G-bonding wire bridge on the AC-out of your inverter until you'll find the time to update the firmware and later remove your own N-G-bonding wire bridge than.
Click to expand...
Thank you for explaining everything. It’s rare I’ll ever be connected to actual shore power. It will mostly be a mobile generator. When my batteries get low, I’ll kick the generator on for a charge up. That generator doesn’t have a NG bond by default. I had to buy this ground neutral plug for it to be accepted by my RVs surge protector.

Power Watchdog Hughes Autoformers Ground Neutral Plug https://a.co/d/3UcapwP

Since my generator is going through the inverter, do I need to unplug this and leave the inverter ng bond relay disabled full time?
 
WilliamFR said:
Thank you for explaining everything. It’s rare I’ll ever be connected to actual shore power. It will mostly be a mobile generator. When my batteries get low, I’ll kick the generator on for a charge up. That generator doesn’t have a NG bond by default. I had to buy this ground neutral plug for it to be accepted by my RVs surge protector.

Power Watchdog Hughes Autoformers Ground Neutral Plug https://a.co/d/3UcapwP

Since my generator is going through the inverter, do I need to unplug this and leave the inverter ng bond relay disabled full time?
Click to expand...
If the inverters bonding relay works in standard way as described above (bonding in battery mode and not bonding in bypass/grid mode), the generator, connected to AC-in of the inverter, has to be N-G-bonded because it should behave like a grid (with an N-G-bond). In this case you'll need your special N-G-bonding-plug.

The question, If you can leave the special N-G-bonding-plug plugged in all the time depends on your neutral wiring and the type(s) of the ATS('s) (1 or 2 pole) which switches from shore power to generator and how you've wired the inverter output together with these.

In case you'll have a common neutral setup (the generator neutral is permanent connected with the AC-out neutral of the inverter), than the generator needs to do the N-G-bonding always (using your plug) and the inverter must never do the bonding. In case you'll have separate neutral wiring, the inverter must do the bonding (in battery mode) and it doesn't matter if the special N-G-bonding-plug is still plugged in the generator.

RV wiring is sometimes a mess. When I bought my (used) RV, the pre-owner installed an inverter by himself and just connected permanently the output of the inverter with the shore power line in parallel - THIS WAS LIFE THREATENING, because the shore power plug had power (and could have been easily touched) when the inverter was used! I was not aware of that at the beginning and guess what, on one day, I left the shore plug inserted to the grid and switched on the inverter - and BOOM - the inverter blows up and started to burn - usually the inverter will loose the fight against the grid ;)
A clean installation would be to chain an additional (a 2nd) ATS behind the existing ATS (which is always installed to switch between shore power and generator power). In all modern RV, the existing ATS is a 2-pole ATS which switches phase and neutral wires at the same time and in such case, the generator has to be permanently provide a N-G-bonding (independent if the shore plug is inserted to the grid or not - because the ATS switches the neutral also).
In typical installation with a "simple" RV inverter (which does not have an AC-in and so does not provide a bypass mode), an additional ATS is required. The output of the 1st ATS will be one of the inputs of the 2nd ATS and the other input of the 2nd ATS will be feed from the inverter.

I don't know if you use such a setup or something else. In principle it would be possible with an EG4-6500 to wire the
generator output exclusively to the AC-in of your EG4-6500.... even if it were unusual, but possible. There are many options an possibilities and it highly depends.
 
Sounds like you most likely got it figured out with firmware....
My only suggestion, and might help a lurker who has shocking issues different to yours is to:

Make sure all of your wires on AC side are wired correctly, do NOT reverse Hot and Neutral. Reversing them on anything plugged into AC outlet downstream of the inverter can have shocking results. Everything will work electrically just fine, but will not be safe for humans.

"My setup
Solar panels > eg4 6500ex, 48v 280Ah Eve cell battery > ac out to Rv power plug > power watch dog > breaker box"

On yours I would have checked from the "ac out" then the "Rv power plug" and so on down the stream. Unplug everything then plug in one at a time until the shock occurs also. I have seen an item with a reversed hot/N that was plugged into an outlet and this caused shocking issues, and also caused GFI to keep tripping. The shock was only when laying on concrete and touching the metal chassis, and it was not 120 volts, but a mild electric sensation, could have been deadly. Always check outlets with a tester, even at RV camping hookup poles.
 
fmeili1 said:
If the inverters bonding relay works in standard way as described above (bonding in battery mode and not bonding in bypass/grid mode), the generator, connected to AC-in of the inverter, has to be N-G-bonded because it should behave like a grid (with an N-G-bond). In this case you'll need your special N-G-bonding-plug.

The question, If you can leave the special N-G-bonding-plug plugged in all the time depends on your neutral wiring and the type(s) of the ATS('s) (1 or 2 pole) which switches from shore power to generator and how you've wired the inverter output together with these.

In case you'll have a common neutral setup (the generator neutral is permanent connected with the AC-out neutral of the inverter), than the generator needs to do the N-G-bonding always (using your plug) and the inverter must never do the bonding. In case you'll have separate neutral wiring, the inverter must do the bonding (in battery mode) and it doesn't matter if the special N-G-bonding-plug is still plugged in the generator.

RV wiring is sometimes a mess. When I bought my (used) RV, the pre-owner installed an inverter by himself and just connected permanently the output of the inverter with the shore power line in parallel - THIS WAS LIFE THREATENING, because the shore power plug had power (and could have been easily touched) when the inverter was used! I was not aware of that at the beginning and guess what, on one day, I left the shore plug inserted to the grid and switched on the inverter - and BOOM - the inverter blows up and started to burn - usually the inverter will loose the fight against the grid ;)
A clean installation would be to chain an additional (a 2nd) ATS behind the existing ATS (which is always installed to switch between shore power and generator power). In all modern RV, the existing ATS is a 2-pole ATS which switches phase and neutral wires at the same time and in such case, the generator has to be permanently provide a N-G-bonding (independent if the shore plug is inserted to the grid or not - because the ATS switches the neutral also).
In typical installation with a "simple" RV inverter (which does not have an AC-in and so does not provide a bypass mode), an additional ATS is required. The output of the 1st ATS will be one of the inputs of the 2nd ATS and the other input of the 2nd ATS will be feed from the inverter.

I don't know if you use such a setup or something else. In principle it would be possible with an EG4-6500 to wire the
generator output exclusively to the AC-in of your EG4-6500.... even if it were unusual, but possible. There are many options a possibilities and it highly depends.
Click to expand...
Well I was going to use an ATS but I opted to leave all of my equipment in their tool chests under the RV. Otherwise I’d of had to completely disassemble the battery, and jam everything in a tight space. On top of that I’d of had to drill a few holes in the floor. I don’t plan to keep this camper forever.

I thought by using the SBU setting, and the battery running out of juice, that I could just walk outside and start up the generator and boom..power is back. Batteries are charging. This has def gotten complicated lol.

Since I’m slow, very slow, can I get a long story short version haha.

NG plug stays in the generator. New setting on the inverter stays enabled or disabled? (Just to make sure lol) Once I set that..am I good? No more messing with it?
 
WilliamFR said:
Well I was going to use an ATS but I opted to leave all of my equipment in their tool chests under the RV. Otherwise I’d of had to completely disassemble the battery, and jam everything in a tight space. On top of that I’d of had to drill a few holes in the floor. I don’t plan to keep this camper forever.

I thought by using the SBU setting, and the battery running out of juice, that I could just walk outside and start up the generator and boom..power is back. Batteries are charging. This has def gotten complicated lol.

Since I’m slow, very slow, can I get a long story short version haha.

NG plug stays in the generator. New setting on the inverter stays enabled or disabled? (Just to make sure lol) Once I set that..am I good? No more messing with it?
Click to expand...
I'm a bit confused!

You've wrote in your first message that the output of the inverter feeds the shore power plug.
Now I know, you don't have ATS at all. How do you use your mobile generator if required and how it's wired?
  • Do you either unplug the shore plug from the inverter's output and plug the shore plug into the generator output in this case?
  • Or is the output of the generator permanently connected to the AC-in of your EG4-6500?
 
fmeili1 said:
I'm a bit confused!

You've wrote in your first message that the output of the inverter feeds the shore power plug.
Now I know, you don't have ATS at all. How do you use your mobile generator if required and how it's wired?
  • Do you either unplug the shore plug from the inverter's output and plug the shore plug into the generator output in this case?
  • Or is the output of the generator permanently connected to the AC-in of your EG4-6500?
Click to expand...
I have a cord going from my generator to a 30amp receptacle on the inverter tool chest. This is wired directly to the ac Input terminals. This is where the generator would provide power to the inverter as backup.

From the same tool chest, I go ac out, wired to another 30amp receptacle. From there I plug in a rv cord straight to the RV shore power plug on the side of the Rv
 
OK, got it (first I thought that your generator is an integrated version with already existing ATS etc. in your RV)

Set program 42 to default (disable) and let the inverter doing the N-G-bonding if it runs in battery mode. When the inverter switching to bypass mode the inverter does not longer doing the N-G-bonding and the generator has to provide the N-G bonding via it's N-G-plug.

You can connect/disconnect the generator to the AC-in depending on your needs and the N-G-plug must always be plugged in if the generator is used to feed the AC-in.
 
fmeili1 said:
OK, got it (first I thought that your generator is an integrated version with already existing ATS etc. in your RV)

Set program 42 to default (disable) and let the inverter doing the N-G-bonding if it runs in battery mode. When the inverter switching to bypass mode the inverter does not longer doing the N-G-bonding and the generator has to provide the N-G bonding via it's N-G-plug.

You can connect/disconnect the generator to the AC-in depending on your needs and the N-G-plug must always be plugged in if the generator is used to feed the AC-in.
Click to expand...
great news. Now I hope I can find that firmware cable when I get home lol
 
WilliamFR said:
great news. Now I hope I can find that firmware cable when I get home lol
Click to expand...
It's very likely that your current "old" firmware behave like the default with setting of the new firmware for program 42. So maybe you don't need that update for your situation.

There is one unknown possible issue left. During a certain period of time (as far as I remember by end of 2022 and beginning of 2023), SignatureSolar delivered the EG4-6500EX without the bonding screw inserted. In this case you need to re-insert this bonding screw. You many double check this with a call to them by providing the serial number or measure it by yourself if you are able to do this or open the case and visually check if the screw is inserted or not. Without the bonding screw in place, the inverter will never doing a N-G-bonding!
 
fmeili1 said:
It's very likely that your current "old" firmware behave like the default with setting of the new firmware for program 42. So maybe you don't need that update for your situation.

There is one unknown possible issue left. During a certain period of time (as far as I remember by end of 2022 and beginning of 2023), SignatureSolar delivered the EG4-6500EX without the bonding screw inserted. In this case you need to re-insert this bonding screw. You many double check this with a call to them by providing the serial number or measure it by yourself if you are able to do this or open the case and visually check if the screw is inserted or not. Without the bonding screw in place, the inverter will never doing a N-G-bonding!
Click to expand...
hey i'm home now and the only cable i can find is the grey rj45 to 9pin female data. i saw your other post about this where you said to buy a USB-to-RS232/DP9male cable to connect it to. Does that still hold true? Wanna make sure before i go buy it tomorrow when the stores open

this one in particular

 
WilliamFR said:
hey i'm home now and the only cable i can find is the grey rj45 to 9pin female data. i saw your other post about this where you said to buy a USB-to-RS232/DP9male cable to connect it to. Does that still hold true? Wanna make sure before i go buy it tomorrow when the stores open

this one in particular

Click to expand...
I'm not really sure if this will work - you can't see it from the outside!

This version works for me, but I've tried another one (which is not longer available on ebay) which not worked it's title was "9 Pin Cable PDA 3FT New Translucent USB 2.0 To DB9 RS232 Serial Converte 2PACKS". See my older post here.
 
fmeili1 said:
I'm not really sure if this will work - you can't see it from the outside!

This version works for me, but I've tried another one (which is not longer available on ebay) which not worked it's title was "9 Pin Cable PDA 3FT New Translucent USB 2.0 To DB9 RS232 Serial Converte 2PACKS". See my older post here.
Click to expand...
well, at least it's the same chipset PL2303. I'll give it a shot because i'm heading back out tomorrow lol. fingers crossed. also, i'd take my inverter out and look for the screw, but considering how i have it bolted inside my case with everything mounted perfectly..thats gotta be last resort lol
 
fmeili1 said:
I'm not really sure if this will work - you can't see it from the outside!

This version works for me, but I've tried another one (which is not longer available on ebay) which not worked it's title was "9 Pin Cable PDA 3FT New Translucent USB 2.0 To DB9 RS232 Serial Converte 2PACKS". See my older post here.
Click to expand...
cable worked, firmware updated..42 is set to disabled. heading back to camp in just a bit
 
fmeili1 said:
I'm not really sure if this will work - you can't see it from the outside!

This version works for me, but I've tried another one (which is not longer available on ebay) which not worked it's title was "9 Pin Cable PDA 3FT New Translucent USB 2.0 To DB9 RS232 Serial Converte 2PACKS". See my older post here.
Click to expand...
Alrighty just an update. Everything is working but not exactly how you said it lol.

So I tried every combination..this is the only thing that works.

NG plug has to be plugged in to generator. Power cord from generator to AC in MUST BE plugged in. Setting 42 enabled. No other way worked, but now it’s working perfectly..unless something is going to blow up on me and I don’t know it
 
WilliamFR said:
Alrighty just an update. Everything is working but not exactly how you said it lol.

So I tried every combination..this is the only thing that works.

NG plug has to be plugged in to generator. Power cord from generator to AC in MUST BE plugged in. Setting 42 enabled. No other way worked, but now it’s working perfectly..unless something is going to blow up on me and I don’t know it
Click to expand...
I'm happy that it's working now. Not 100% sure why it's not like I thought, but anyway no tripping GFI and it's working. Have fun!
 
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