EG4 Chargeverter

[thepartyhound]

I have some questions in reguards to SS's Chargeverter that recently came out. I plan to have a relatively simple setup at some remote property I own...or at least I hope everything is as simple as I have it in my head. I plan to use an EG4 6kW inverter, (2) EG4 LL 48v 100Ah batteries, and about 3kW of PV panels. I have read on here that the EG4 inverter/chargers do not like AC input from generators. I will be using a 7.5kW 1800 rpm diesel generator to top off the batteries as needed. On the surface it would seem (to me) the solution is their new 100A "Chargeverter". However, I read in another post that this unit does not charge at a high enough voltage to equalize all of the cells in a LiFePo4 battery such as the one mentioned above.
Another question I have is how does this charger know when to stop charging? I am pretty new to all of this and maybe everything is not straight in my head. My understanding is that there is a communications link between the batteries and the inverter/charger. It is my understanding that this BMS from the battery tells the inverter/charger when it's full and when to stop charging, or maybe when to go into a float charge. It is also my understanding that this Chargeverter plugs into my generator on the input side, then attaches to the bus bars my batteries are connected to on the 48v DC output side. If that's the case, how do the batteries tell the chargeverter when to stop charging? Maybe I'm missing something simple here? Also, is there any reason why I could not use this system I have described without any solar panels attached? My usage will be very minimal. A small TV and dvd player for a few hours in the evening, a few LED lights, a Starlink satalite internet router and dish, and a phone charger. It seems like I could run this off the 2 batteries for several days, then kick on the generator for a few hours and recharge the batteries for another 2 or 3 days. SS sales woman said no. She said I HAVE to have solar input for the EG4 to work.

 

[EastTexCowboy]

The Chargerverter appears to be simply a 48v 100a battery charger. Your EG4 inverter comes from the factory set to charge at 48v 30a so I don't see why it wouldn't work for what you're describing, but I don't have firsthand experience.

I'm not sure why she would say it requires solar input. What does she think happens at night?

 

[BentleyJ]

1) It is true that not all Inverter/generator combinations are compatible and gen power may not be accepted by the inverter. However, don't assume your diesel generator will not work with an EG4 6kW inverter. Its not that difficult to test before purchasing the ChargeVerter and it may turn out you don't need it. The datasheet lists max charging voltage of the ChargeVerter at 57V, that is 3.56V per cell which is plenty to get 95%+ SoC.

2) Both the EG4 6kW and the ChargeVerter have voltage and amperage settings that regulate battery charging. These can either be user set or compatible Inverter-Battery combinations have closed loop communications with built in charge parameters. Based on recent posts on this Forum, I would have to conclude user based settings are preferable to the built-in settings. Seems like the kinks are still being worked out with closed loop BMS communications.

3) Does the diesel generator have an autostart function? If so the EG4 has an aux output that can start and stop the generator based on battery voltage or SoC.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

https://eg4electronics.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Chargeverter-5kW-Spec-Sheet_1.0.1.pdf

Adjustable 43-57V charge voltage. 54V default.

57/16= 3.5625V/cell = more than enough to get fully charged

Additionally, who wants to fully charge with generator anyway? You only want to run the generator @ peak output for maximum efficiency and best fuel burn per kWh. If you hold at absorption to fully charge, you're just burning more gas for less kWh.

Best to charge until current starts to reduce and then cut genny. Maybe it's only 90% charged. No worries. You can always run the genny again.

Batteries don't tell the charger anything. The charger charges until the programmed voltage is achieved. Then it holds that voltage and current tapers off. All chargers work this way.

While you may not be consuming much power, the inverter will. That bugger is going to use close to 100W 24/7 meaning you'll use 25% of your battery capacity simply having the inverter on and not powering loads.

Solar FTW.

 

[thepartyhound]

1) It is true that not all Inverter/generator combinations are compatible and gen power may not be accepted by the inverter. However, don't assume your diesel generator will not work with an EG4 6kW inverter. Its not that difficult to test before purchasing the ChargeVerter and it may turn out you don't need it. The datasheet lists max charging voltage of the ChargeVerter at 57V, that is 3.56V per cell which is plenty to get 95%+ SoC.

It was explained to me that the generator produces dirty power as load increases and that I would need to keep it at or under 50% load while charging or it could slowly damage the inverter. I figured this was best avoided!

2) Both the EG4 6kW and the ChargeVerter have voltage and amperage settings that regulate battery charging. These can either be user set or compatible Inverter-Battery combinations have closed loop communications with built in charge parameters. Based on recent posts on this Forum, I would have to conclude user based settings are preferable to the built-in settings. Seems like the kinks are still being worked out with closed loop BMS communications

It sounds like at this point the BMS closed loop comms don't serve much of a purpose? Is this specific to EG4 equipment, or are all manufacturers having problems with this?

I do not believe the generator has an auto-start. It does have electric start, but to the best of my knowledge not auto-start.

 

[timselectric]

I'll just say ditto to the above answers, while passing by. lol

 

[BentleyJ]

You have to decide what is the best practice for your particular set up. Personally I like to investigate things rather than guess. Would probably either purchase or rent a scope meter and test the generator output. If it looked good then the risk of connecting the gen to the AC Input of the inverter is low.

Alternatively, if your budget is not too tight there is nothing at all wrong with having a stand alone battery charger that you can plug in to basically anything. Then if the Inverter malfunctions you can still charge batteries.

 

[timselectric]

I prefer a separate charger with a generator for fuel efficiency. Especially one that you can dial in to match the generator.

 

[thepartyhound]

Additionally, who wants to fully charge with generator anyway? You only want to run the generator @ peak output for maximum efficiency and best fuel burn per kWh. If you hold at absorption to fully charge, you're just burning more gas for less kWh.

Best to charge until current starts to reduce and then cut genny. Maybe it's only 90% charged. No worries. You can always run the genny again.

This makes sense.

What little solar knowledge I do have comes from the era of lead acid batteries. It was always widely held that you would need to balance your batteries every so often, and a generator was required for this task. Is this no longer the case? Will my cells stay balanced with only the output from my PV array?

Batteries don't tell the charger anything. The charger charges until the programmed voltage is achieved. Then it holds that voltage and current tapers off. All chargers work this way.

Thank you. This seems like something really obvious that I should have known now that I read it spelled out. I guess that leads to the next question. What is the point of the BMS? It apparently does not do what I thought it did!

While you may not be consuming much power, the inverter will. That bugger is going to use close to 100W 24/7 meaning you'll use 25% of your battery capacity simply having the inverter on and not powering loads.

That is a lot! I believe the Starlink uses a similar amount. I had hopes of being able to have the inverter/internet/cameras being able to run throughout the winter just to keep an eye on things from down the mountain during the winter. Is it possible to have the inverter programmed to come on during specific times so that it was only running during the day?
I guess that leads to the final piece of this puzzle...how good is the EG4, assuming I can keep internet connected to it at least at regular intervals, at remote monitoring?

 

[timselectric]

The main purpose of a BMS (Battery Management System) is to manage the battery (keep the cells in balance) , and protect it from what can hurt it.
Over voltage
Under voltage
Too high charge current
Too high discharge current
Over temperature
Under temperature

 

[thepartyhound]

You have to decide what is the best practice for your particular set up. Personally I like to investigate things rather than guess. Would probably either purchase or rent a scope meter and test the generator output. If it looked good then the risk of connecting the gen to the AC Input of the inverter is low.

Alternatively, if your budget is not too tight there is nothing at all wrong with having a stand alone battery charger that you can plug in to basically anything. Then if the Inverter malfunctions you can still charge batteries.

I suppose it would be good to know the condition of the power the generator is producing, even on just a general level. When you say scope (please forgive my ignorance) I assume you refer to an oscilloscope? It has been a long while since I have sat in front of one of those! I use a TDR and an OTDR fairly regularly, but I can't remember the last O-scope I used!
My thoughts were that the 400 was a reasonable price to ensure I didnt damage my inverter. It would also allow me to swap in a backup genny without fear of damaging my inverter.

 

[thepartyhound]

The main purpose of a BMS (Battery Management System) is to manage the battery (keep the cells in balance) , and protect it from what can hurt it.
Over voltage
Under voltage
Too high charge current
Too high discharge current
Over temperature
Under temperature

Ok. So I kinda thought that's what it did. If I'm understanding this under new light, the BMS performs all of these functions from within the battery all by itself, not by communicating it's internal status to the inverter/charger? So, what is the purpose of the battery communicating to the inverter? It sounds like this communication is not so important? Although, as I mentioned in a post above, I do hope to be able to remotely monitor this system over the internet. Is that where this battery-to-inverter communication becomes important?

 

[timselectric]

Ok. So I kinda thought that's what it did. If I'm understanding this under new light, the BMS performs all of these functions from within the battery all by itself, not by communicating it's internal status to the inverter/charger? So, what is the purpose of the battery communicating to the inverter? It sounds like this communication is not so important? Although, as I mentioned in a post above, I do hope to be able to remotely monitor this system over the internet. Is that where this battery-to-inverter communication becomes important?

The BMS does it on its own.
Communication between the BMS and AIO gives the BMS control of the charging from the AIO. I prefer to choose my own parameters.
As far as monitoring, I would suggest Solar Assistant.
It will monitor the batteries and inverters. And let you remotely change the settings from anywhere in the world. From any device you have access to.

 

[Nan_wpg]

I’m eyeing this charger. Still trying to figure out how it switches from 120 to 240. Manual makes no mention of a switch, only using an adaptor

 

[sunshine_eggo]

What little solar knowledge I do have comes from the era of lead acid batteries. It was always widely held that you would need to balance your batteries every so often, and a generator was required for this task. Is this no longer the case? Will my cells stay balanced with only the output from my PV array?

LFP does need periodic absorption to keep the cells balanced. Another argument for solar as it's trivial for solar to hold the batteries at an elevated voltage for balancing purposes.

Thank you. This seems like something really obvious that I should have known now that I read it spelled out. I guess that leads to the next question. What is the point of the BMS? It apparently does not do what I thought it did!

The EG4 battery communicating with the EG4 inverter does a little something extra. It exerts control over the inverter. It tells it its actual state of charge, and the inverter can make decisions based on that rather than a voltage, .e.g, switch to utility at 10% or shut off at 5%, etc., rather than trying to pinpoint a voltage. It can also tell the inverter the preferred charge votlage and current and force the inverter to respect those limits.

Nothing precludes you from installing a suitably programmed "dumb" charger that can't communicate with either provided that you have it programmed to a suitable voltage/current.

That is a lot! I believe the Starlink uses a similar amount.

Yep. Newer Starlink uses something like 30-60W - more if melting snow off the dish. The first gen used around 100W.

I had hopes of being able to have the inverter/internet/cameras being able to run throughout the winter just to keep an eye on things from down the mountain during the winter.

With PV, possibly.

Is it possible to have the inverter programmed to come on during specific times so that it was only running during the day?

I don't know.

I guess that leads to the final piece of this puzzle...how good is the EG4, assuming I can keep internet connected to it at least at regular intervals, at remote monitoring?

I don't know this either.

I'm a Victron snob and can give confident answers there, but i don't know anything about remote monitoring/control of the EG4 products.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

I’m eyeing this charger. Still trying to figure out how it switches from 120 to 240. Manual makes no mention of a switch, only using an adaptor

$399 for a 57V/100A charger... yeah... pretty fricken sweet.

 

[Nan_wpg]

$399 for a 57V/100A charger... yeah... pretty fricken sweet.

Trophy wants 200 bucks for their 20a charger. When I saw the chargeverter I was sold!

do you have any idea how it switches from 120/240?

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Trophy wants 200 bucks for their 20a charger. When I saw the chargeverter I was sold!

do you have any idea how it switches from 120/240?

Nope. I assume it just takes what it's given, i.e., if you feed it L-N 120V, you get 50A. if you feed it L1-N-L2 120/240V (or L1-L2), you get 100A.

Data sheet does say 50A @ 120V.

Might be a switch like a computer power supply... 120/240V selectable?

 

[Nan_wpg]

Nope. I assume it just takes what it's given, i.e., if you feed it L-N 120V, you get 50A. if you feed it L1-N-L2 120/240V (or L1-L2), you get 100A.

Data sheet does say 50A @ 120V.

Might be a switch like a computer power supply... 120/240V selectable?

What’s,throwing me off is the manual says an adaptor cable is,required,for 120v. Yet the manual shows the exact same “plug” for 120.

 

[timselectric]

It's the same inverter/charger board that's in any of the Voltronics split-phase AIO's. So it works the same way. It can take in 120v or 240v.
The adapter does the same thing as an RV adapter.