Electrical question

[Bluedog225]

I’d appreciate a better understanding of what I have here. Got this stuff pretty cheap at Restore. I realize I’m in over my head and I plan to get an electrician for the actual install. Unless I can learn how to properly wire a load center.

My setup will be batteries and Quattro in the power shed. Then an AC line run to the cabin subpanel. Bonding and grounding will take place at the power shed. The power shed will have loads (primarily air conditioning) and the cabin will have loads.

Right now, I’ve only got one Quattro. And that will probably always be the case. Unless running an air conditioner on 240 volts is needed.

My overall cabin load maxes out at about 2000 watts (best guess). Mostly air conditioning. Much less in cooler times.

I’ve got three questions.

1. This load center is single phase (I think). Therefore, I think the positive from Quattro would run to one lug on the 200 amp breaker. And the other lug on the 200 amp breaker would be unused. Is this correct?

2. I’m vaguely aware of 240 volt appliances being more efficient. But candidly, I don’t know if that’s 240 volt single phase or 240 split phase. I dug a little but and managed to confuse myself. Is there a situation in the US where I would run 240 single phase? (Edit-I guess I don’t know what runs on a 3 wire versus 4 wire circuit).

Or should I stop buying stuff till I have a better understanding of what I’m doing. If I’m on the wrong path, I can sell this and start over.

Many thanks

 

[Mattb4]

Your panel is a 200a main service used for 240vAc split phase N. American setups. 240vAC split phase will have 2 hot legs (L1, L2) neutral and ground. You will notice in the panel the staggered bus and two lugs in the center of the panel for feeding each leg. The breakers that fit this panels must be compatible with the mounting points. You will see a neutral bus and lug on the right with a ground bonding screw. There is also an additional neutral bus on the left if a jumper is established to it from the right side. There is also 2 grounding buss bars with 1 large lug for running a outdoor ground rod plus connection for circuit grounds.

If you only want 120vAC input and do not need a main breaker of 200a you can leave it out and instead install an appropriate amp breaker into one slot of the panel with a feed from your Quatro AC out. Place a heavy duty jumper wire to the top 2 main lugs.

240vAC appliances are no more efficient than 120vAC appliances. They do however require less amps for the same wattage (W=VA) which also translate to smaller wire and connection sizes.

No need to sell what you got, any competent electrician could work with it. That said it is possible that doing so might upset the code people if you have them folks to please.

 

[Bluedog225]

That all makes sense. A couple of follow up questions.

1. I’m confused why the label says “1 phase, 3 wire, 120/240 AC.”

2. Do US 240 volt air conditioners (or other appliances) run on split phase 240 volt or “pure” 240 volt. I’d like to understand this better.

And thanks!

 

[BentleyJ]

Sometimes they don't count the ground because its not a "conductor" and ground is ALWAYS required so its just assumed any qualified person would know this.

Most 240V appliances run on a 3 wire system. 2 Hots and a ground.

 

[Mattb4]

1. Because it is a single phase panel and not a 3 phase panel.
2. N American standard 240vAC runs with 2 hot legs. European and other strange little nations with odd looking people use 230vAC that has one hot leg and a neutral leg to get 230vAC.

 

[Bluedog225]

Are the two hot legs a single-phase or a split-phase? Or can it be both but in the US when people say 240, they always mean split phase?

And it sounds like a three-wire system (two lines and one neutral) that is split-phase is referred to as a “single-phase“ system. Is this correct? And that’s why label makes sense? So split phase is single phase and 3-phase is 3-phase.

Sorry to be dense.

 

[timselectric]

. I’m confused why the label says “1 phase, 3 wire, 120/240 AC.”

L1, L2, N
3 wires

Do US 240 volt air conditioners (or other appliances) run on split phase 240 volt or “pure” 240 volt. I’d like to understand this better.

Some use just straight 240v. Some use split-phase.
Anything with a 4 wire feed, uses split-phase.

 

[timselectric]

Are the two hot legs a single-phase or a split-phase? Or can it be both but in the US when people say 240, they always mean split phase?

And it sounds like a three-wire system (two lines and one neutral) that is split-phase is referred to as a “single-phase“ system. Is this correct? And that’s why label makes sense? So split phase is single phase and 3-phase is 3-phase.

Sorry to be dense.

Correct
Split-phase is single phase with a center tapped neutral.

 

[timselectric]

Split-phase is the common term for single phase 120/240 3- wire.

 

[Bluedog225]

That’s what I was missing. Been confused for decades.?

Split sounds like it’s well, split (180 degrees). I couldn’t wrap my mind around split being single. Especially when splitting it into 3 phases is called 3 phase (I think).

If I feed this from two Quattros, does the Victron magic produce split phase or straight 240? Or does it give me the choice?

And thanks for all the help.

 

[timselectric]

Also
240v single phase is not always Split-phase. Unless it has a center tapped neutral.

 

[Mattb4]

Are the two hot legs a single-phase or a split-phase? ...

Yes. Sorry if this sounds confusing.

Think of it like the output of two poles from a generator are single phase. It takes 6 poles to get 3 phase.

 

[timselectric]

Especially when splitting it into 3 phases is called 3 phase (I think).

You don't split anything into 3-phase.
3-phase is a different system.

 

[Ampster]

I’d like to understand this better.

Some appliances need the neutral because some components run off 120 Volts. Electric dryers are an example because the motor and timers may run off 120 and the heating element is 240. My A/C heat pump minisplit and my HPWH use 240 only, so no neutral is needed.

 

[Bluedog225]

Ok. I was thinkings of the wave form for 3 phase was 180 degree and 3 phase was 120 degrees. But I can happily let 3 phase alone for now.

Is there a crosswalk for finding the breakers that will fit this load center?

It’s a PN series but home depot is showing me QP breakers.

Thanks

 

[timselectric]

PN means that it's a plug in neutral panel board.
A QP breaker will work in it. Or a PN style GFCI or AFCI.

 

[Mattb4]

The QP breakers will fit the Siemens PN panel. You can see a similar but indoor panel over here: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens...ith-Copper-Bus-PN4040B1200C/312138643#overlay

 

[Bluedog225]

These are pretty cool. I didn’t know they started making them combined. Too bad about the price.

 

[Mattb4]

Ok. I was thinkings of the wave form for 3 phase was 180 degree and 3 phase was 120 degrees. But I can happily let 3 phase alone for now.

Is there a crosswalk for finding the breakers that will fit this load center?

It’s a PN series but home depot is showing me QP breakers.

Thanks

There are 3 wave forms for 3 phase. They are 120 degrees apart. There is just one wave form for 120v/240vAC*. In order to have it split a center tapped transformer allows you to have one half of it when measuring to neutral. The other half is 180 degrees apart. But run the two ends of the transformer skipping the neutral will show you the single sine wave form.

* when you see 120v/240vAC it is a designation for N. American style split phase.

 

[timselectric]

These are pretty cool. I didn’t know they started making them combined. Too bad about the price.

View attachment 159666

The PN version doesn't have the neutral pigtail. It plugs on to a bus, just like the hots.