EV Network issues and a possible fix? A thought experiment...

[Rednecktek]

So I've been saying for a couple decades now that for any kind of alternative energy source to really take off, you'd need 1 company to step up and say "By 202x every Chevron/Exxon/Shell/Temco/Etc station will have Biodiesel/Hydrogen/Ethanol/Etc." and whatever that source was the industry would start really making cars that can use it. Right now it seems that EV is leading the way but a huge issue is range anxiety (and gods help you if you have an EV truck!) but I had a thought...

So homes tend to just wire in a NEMA-50 plug and there are dozens of plug-in chargers available, NAC is becoming a standard now amongst manufacturers, so the only thing preventing any gas station out there from providing EV charging is the initial investment running the power (not too horrible) and some form of billing/metering method, right? It seems the missing key to making EV charger adoption more accessible is the metering & billing to take the 30Kwh you just threw into your car and charge it to your ATM card/cash. I think as soon as someone comes out with a meter that works with gas stations' current per-gallon measuring and billing we'll start seeing signs saying Unleaded $5.999, Diesel $6.249, EV $0.209. As cheap as electricity is the markup and ROI should be fairly quick compared to the few cents a gallon stations make now.

Where is my logic wrong? Brainstorm with me y'all!

 

[efficientPV]

If you owned an EV, you would know the answers. My wife keeps asking me what it costs. Many localities now require 50A plugs now be put in garages for new construction. There was a recent expose on the pay air pumps at gas stations. They said it would give you 6 minutes of air and some machines were less than 2 minutes. Price gouging is sure to happen. In some places you are so happy to find one the price doesn't matter. I pass a dozen of them just going to the YMCA in the morning, none say the price. GPS already tell you where they are and that can just as well tell the price. Much is already pre negotiated when you sign up. There are drive over chargers at taxi stands which charge while waiting for a fare. Think of these at your McDonalds. It is a whole new world that hasn't been worked out.

 

[Rednecktek]

If you owned an EV, you would know the answers.

Maybe, but I need a truck for a lot of what I do and the current status of EV trucks is pretty sad. The drive over charging is a pretty cool idea if you have a subscription service which would be nice to see expanded.

My thoughts were mostly centered around the "What If" of independent gas station owners setting up EV charging rather than having to rely on the 2? 3? national chains that are still rolling out. As a wild guess I bet my local Arco could get a 50a socket and wall charger and station set up a LOT faster than the chains could get a station set up, and it would be another source of income for the local owners. If the owner set up a station then $0.00/Kwh would go to Arco/Chevron/Etc which in turn vastly improves the ROI of the charging station.

It's a thought...

 

[Texas-Mark]

My thoughts were mostly centered around the "What If" of independent gas station owners setting up EV charging

IMO most don't have the real estate to have cars sitting for half an hour or more. And where is the profit if throughput is now at a snail's pace?

 

[webbbn]

In my experience range anxiety is overblown. I have a level 2 charger at home, and I throw my car on the charger every few days. I could easily go a week or more without issue. If you're a contractor or some other profession where you're driving all around town all day, it may be different, but the question to ask yourself is how often do you have to go to the gas station twice in a single day?

The way you "fuel" an EV is very different from how you fuel a gas vehicle. You can top it off every night and never need to go to a charger. The only time most would need to use a charger other than at home/work is when going out of town.

A level-2 charger wouldn't really be enough for a charging station either. Most cars can charge 10X or more faster with a level-3 charger. You don't want to be sitting at a charging station / gas station for hours waiting for your car to charge unless you just cant reach a fast charger.

 

[Texas-Mark]

In my experience range anxiety is overblown.

how often do you have to go to the gas station twice in a single day?

I have to drive 100 miles round trip just to go to the store. I make frequent 500+ mile trips. So, pretty often.

 

[Rednecktek]

In my experience range anxiety is overblown. I have a level 2 charger at home, and I throw my car on the charger every few days. I could easily go a week or more without issue. If you're a contractor or some other profession where you're driving all around town all day, it may be different, but the question to ask yourself is how often do you have to go to the gas station twice in a single day?

When I head to my camp it's 2 full tanks @ 21gal to make it each way. I guess my observations and thoughts stem from living rural where charging stations don't really exist and needing a truck. Doing the math a while back when the Lightning came out I figured out that to run down to my parent's place and back with no load was a full charge and I couldn't get to my camp without having to fire up the generator and recharge there to get enough power to make it to the nearest station, much less even make it over the pass with a bed full of parts and tools.

I'd wait the hour or two if it was even an option because it's a better option than having to haul a generator and charger in the bed to recharge on the side of the road. ?

 

[timselectric]

Also drive a lot. And need a truck full of tools and parts. Nothing on the market currently can give me everything I need. I almost bought a lightning. But it would be a compromise. So, I'm still searching for a solution.
This is why I am seriously considering building my own EV truck.

 

[webbbn]

Certainly the needs for rural residents are different than those in urban areas, but most of the gas stations are in urban areas, so forcing all gas stations to have EV chargers would be an unnecessary burden that would likely go mostly unused.

FWIW, I have yet to see a car dealership in a more rural area that even sells EVs.

 

[Rednecktek]

so forcing all gas stations to have EV chargers would be an unnecessary burden that would likely go mostly unused.

Oh absolutely! My thought was more if a gas station owner decided he wanted to sell EV charging, what would be the easiest way other than relying on a national company to get around to it? It seems that the metering & billing is really the only hurdle to someone hiring an electrician and buying a charger unit off Amazon.

 

[webbbn]

Oh absolutely! My thought was more if a gas station owner decided he wanted to sell EV charging, what would be the easiest way other than relying on a national company to get around to it? It seems that the metering & billing is really the only hurdle to someone hiring an electrician and buying a charger unit off Amazon.

A level-2 charger charger can only charge at around 11kW, at the price of electricity, and the time you're going to have to wait at the station, I would think they would make more off EV customers in snacks and coffee than what they lose in electricity.

 

[Rednecktek]

Win Win! ?

 

[wme]

Local truck stop, convenience store, food court has 4, level 3 chargers. They are just off the Interstate so it is a workable plan.

 

[Texas-Mark]

Local truck stop, convenience store, food court has 4, level 3 chargers. They are just off the Interstate so it is a workable plan.

A truck stop is a far cry from a corner gas station.

 

[Rednecktek]

Local truck stop, convenience store, food court has 4, level 3 chargers. They are just off the Interstate so it is a workable plan.

I wonder how they do their billing & metering for those or if they're just leasing lot space to one of the national companies?

 

[n2aws]

Maybe, but I need a truck for a lot of what I do and the current status of EV trucks is pretty sad. The drive over charging is a pretty cool idea if you have a subscription service which would be nice to see expanded.

My thoughts were mostly centered around the "What If" of independent gas station owners setting up EV charging rather than having to rely on the 2? 3? national chains that are still rolling out. As a wild guess I bet my local Arco could get a 50a socket and wall charger and station set up a LOT faster than the chains could get a station set up, and it would be another source of income for the local owners. If the owner set up a station then $0.00/Kwh would go to Arco/Chevron/Etc which in turn vastly improves the ROI of the charging station.

It's a thought...

Running a single 50a circuit works fine for your house. Wiring a single one up at a gas station doesn't make a lot of sense IMO. It takes much longer compared to DC fast chargers.. and what about the 2nd person who needs to recharge? Do you expect them to sit there for 2-4 hours while the 1 5a plug is in use? Drive off to the next gas station with a single 50a outlet hoping it's unused? etc etc.

For this to be viable, the station would need to have several available, which would likely require upgrading utility connections and everything else. thus impacting that low cost barrier to entry that makes this sound good at the surface level.

 

[Rednecktek]

Running a single 50a circuit works fine for your house. Wiring a single one up at a gas station doesn't make a lot of sense IMO. It takes much longer compared to DC fast chargers.. and what about the 2nd person who needs to recharge? Do you expect them to sit there for 2-4 hours while the 1 5a plug is in use? Drive off to the next gas station with a single 50a outlet hoping it's unused? etc etc.

For this to be viable, the station would need to have several available, which would likely require upgrading utility connections and everything else. thus impacting that low cost barrier to entry that makes this sound good at the surface level.

Good point. I was envisioning a 4AWG 100a drop to feed 2 chargers for best economy. Most gas stations already have 3ph industrial drops already so it seemed like a simple idea.

Simple on paper, gotcha. ?

It has just seemed to me that the biggest push that EV needs is a charging network and there Should be a way to pick up the pace on that rather than waiting for a National Brand to decide after market studies that they should stick one in your area. If your local station owner wanted to do it, it seemed like a simplistic option.

And yes to all you L3 people out there, it is much faster but since most vehicles currently and soon-to-be available can't support DC fast charging, sitting at an EV station for an hour is just part of the process anyways. The difference would be that they could sit at a Bucee's or Chevron rather than a Tesla.

 

[wme]

A truck stop is a far cry from a corner gas station.

Yes it is, but if corporate is making $$ then the local gas station might see some $$ there too, if no profit then they won't do it. The thing with local gas stations is why plug in there when I can just go home and plug into my level 2 charger

 

[n2aws]

Good point. I was envisioning a 4AWG 100a drop to feed 2 chargers for best economy. Most gas stations already have 3ph industrial drops already so it seemed like a simple idea.

Simple on paper, gotcha. ?

It has just seemed to me that the biggest push that EV needs is a charging network and there Should be a way to pick up the pace on that rather than waiting for a National Brand to decide after market studies that they should stick one in your area. If your local station owner wanted to do it, it seemed like a simplistic option.

And yes to all you L3 people out there, it is much faster but since most vehicles currently and soon-to-be available can't support DC fast charging, sitting at an EV station for an hour is just part of the process anyways. The difference would be that they could sit at a Bucee's or Chevron rather than a Tesla.

Yeah,

The idea sounds good on paper. But aside from the electrical, there are other factors to consider. There are many, but here is 1..


My wife is an environmental and civil engineer. She does a fair number of parking lot designs for various entities. One of her constant battles is.. the local county codes require X amount of parking (often based on the type of business, expected traffic, likelyhood of disabled people, etc etc.). meanwhile property owners are generally trying to reduce the amount of parking that is required because they don't see a "need" for that much parking. The county will make exceptions if the project pays for a traffic study, etc etc)

So what you end up with is lots of places with excess parking (ie, apartment buildings that are required by code to have 2.5 spaces per apartment, regardless of the number of people IN the apartment, or.. visitors). in some situations, and a dire lack of parking in others (a restaurant that wanted to be able to build a bigger buidling to have more seating capacity.. but not recognizing the 5yr or 10yr growth potential of the area.. so now they have WAY less parking than they actually need.

Translate that to your typical gas stations. Lots have empty/unused spaces most of the day, which would suit this well. But lots also have a significant lack of parking. And so, those places likely wouldn't want to give up a spot for extended periods of time if they aren't coming in to spend cash.


So now, random gas station owners have 1 plug. some may have 5, and others have 0. How do they advertise this capability? How do they let people know if a spot is open or not? and, how (as the costomer) do you know if you should waste the time to pull in and check to see if they even offer the service?

I think a lot of things need to come together (over and above billing/metering) before this is an idea that can be successful. Thats not to say it can't be done! we can build apps that individual stations can advertise their EV spots.. We can even find ways to automate the app updates to say if a spot is available or not, etc etc. But yeah, I guess my point is.. this is a lot more than just "get a bunch of gas stations to install a plug" kinda thing.

 

[billvon]

A level-2 charger charger can only charge at around 11kW, at the price of electricity, and the time you're going to have to wait at the station, I would think they would make more off EV customers in snacks and coffee than what they lose in electricity.

Or just set them to charge at 8 amps 208V - that's almost no power (1.6kW) so less money lost.

 

[justinm001]

95% of people drive less than like 30 miles a day and 99% of people don't need anything other than a car for most cases. EV charging isn't a problem, there's chargers everywhere and all over you just need to know where to look. Gas stations dont want or need charging stations becuase their model doesn't support it. Its very rare that people NEED to charge away from home. Only people who live in apts or similar situations

The only issue is travelling and buying large items which I feel both are going to be solved soon.

It's just going to take 1 restaurant chain to offer free L2 charging when you come for a meal and others will follow suit. Same with hotels and shops. Paying a couple bucks in electricity for a family to eat is well worth the acquisition costs.

I'm just waiting for the "rent my truck for an hour" or "have truck will help move" app to blow up and it'll be game over. BTW uhaul has an app that allows 24/7 truck rental i think just not that great yet.

There's a point of mass adoption and we're right on the cusp. Give it a couple more years and EV will overtake gas as the default.

 

[justinm001]

So now, random gas station owners have 1 plug. some may have 5, and others have 0. How do they advertise this capability? How do they let people know if a spot is open or not? and, how (as the costomer) do you know if you should waste the time to pull in and check to see if they even offer the service?

I think a lot of things need to come together (over and above billing/metering) before this is an idea that can be successful. Thats not to say it can't be done! we can build apps that individual stations can advertise their EV spots.. We can even find ways to automate the app updates to say if a spot is available or not, etc etc. But yeah, I guess my point is.. this is a lot more than just "get a bunch of gas stations to install a plug" kinda thing.

Tesla superchargers solved this issue. They not only tell you how many spots are available but how many will be available when you get there. The level of EV charger and prepares your car to charge the fastest. I believe even suggests chargers based on availability instead of distance so will recommend the one 13miles instead of 11miles because there's 8 spots instead of 2 free.

 

[Rednecktek]

There's a point of mass adoption and we're right on the cusp. Give it a couple more years and EV will overtake gas as the default.

Until we crack the energy density issue, I think gas is going to be around for a long time in larger vehicles like trucks and vans. Sedans, minivans, SUV's you're most likely right but the energy density is still an issue.

So now, random gas station owners have 1 plug. some may have 5, and others have 0. How do they advertise this capability?

Easy, we're already doing it:

Tesla superchargers solved this issue. They not only tell you how many spots are available but how many will be available when you get there.

True, but we're back to waiting on a notional chain to do enough market analysis to decide if they want to put one there.

 

[justinm001]

Until we crack the energy density issue, I think gas is going to be around for a long time in larger vehicles like trucks and vans. Sedans, minivans, SUV's you're most likely right but the energy density is still an issue.

Overtake as default not eliminate gas vehicles. We're finally getting to the point where EVs are looking like normal cars that people actually want. F150 lightening is a great example, many don't want to stand out in an EV but just want a car with an EV option.

SUVs, minivans and such aren't an issue just because they're bigger they don't use much more EV.

Pickup trucks and other HD type vehicles are another story entirely. I can see them taking decades but regardless if we hit say 10%-20% we'll instantly go to 50%. Just need to hit that mass adoption so it isn't a niche and then people aren't afraid of range anxiety or anything else. We'll slowly adopt to 70-80% as many will wait for used and then it'll be game over.

My question is what will happen to fuel prices when EVs start taking over? Also what about that .50$ per gallon in fuel tax that's used for roads.... how will that be applied to EVs, or will it?

 

[n2aws]

Tesla superchargers solved this issue. They not only tell you how many spots are available but how many will be available when you get there. The level of EV charger and prepares your car to charge the fastest. I believe even suggests chargers based on availability instead of distance so will recommend the one 13miles instead of 11miles because there's 8 spots instead of 2 free.

Sure, but I think this 100% misses the mark. You're comparing a single entity who.. not only offers the chargers, but *also* integrates with the vehicles systems for reporting, so it's *easy* for them to reliably show availability across their network... that they own and are in full control of.

We're talking about some unknown number of *random* gas stations offering this using *random* EV chargers, and another unknown number of *random* consumers using this. Like using a service or app that another *random* person/group/entity puts together for this purpose. ie, that solution would *not* necessarily be able to get realtime data from all the vehicles using this service. Again, it's a problem that can be solved. BUT, I'm saying it's a problem that would need to be solved, before this is "a thing" that has any real potential.

We have to be cognizant of 1 simple fact. Much like any other app or website.. if it's a terrible experience the first time you use it, there is almost zero chance you use it a second time. This is the chicken-and-egg scenario that would need to be solved. Do the charger spots come first? Or does the app/system to USE the spots, come first? Neither can exist in a useful state, in isolation.